VController version 3

Started by sixeight, June 25, 2016, 05:37:32 AM

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sixeight

#25
Trying to work out things mechanically for the VController. There is not much room for switches. Maybe I should use these for the footswitches:



This one is from https://www.banzaimusic.com/Switch-Actuator.html

Anybody know a good source to get these?

Elantric

#26
FWIW , those are actuators only , and still require a separate PCB mounted SMD momentary switch to function
http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/087147-Line-6-24-32-0108
You end up with equivalent mechanical operation as a Line-6 DL-4


GuitarBuilder

I think this is why RJM kept the switches off the board for the MasterMind GT/16:



This also has the advantage of being more modular, allowing for different sized foot controllers with the same circuit board design (10, 16, 22 switches).
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

sixeight

#28
Quote from:  GuitarBuilder on July 12, 2016, 06:35:08 AM
I think this is why RJM kept the switches off the board for the MasterMind GT/16:

I may have to do that as well. The switches that can be PCB mounted are a lot larger than the normal ones (I just received the PCB switch which I ordered for size/reference.) This will add three cm to the height of the VController, which is a pity.



Quote
This also has the advantage of being more modular, allowing for different sized foot controllers with the same circuit board design (10, 16, 22 switches).

Because of the switches I will have to do a modular design. But flexibility comes with a price. More wires between boards and more components to buy and solder.

Thinking now of developing a board for three displays above each other controlled by one mcp23017. Every board can control three displays and four switches. The displays can be mounted to the enclosure  with the 3D printed display supports that are already designed.

Also will try to use prefab Dupont jumper wires, because I spent days to make them myself.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Dupont-Wire-Jumper-Cable-2-54mm-80mm-4-Pin-Female-Connector-/181845834609?hash=item2a56db3b71:g:L1MAAOSw3ydV3DKG

The middle two switches will have to go below the PCB. I guess I will have to make a drawing of this...

Elantric

#29
Looks like RMJ uses one 50 pin high density flex cable between 1st control board (top) and Display board and a 0.100 pitch 26 pin standard 2x13 ribbon cable to interconnect the control boards

and
Each 6 switch Control board has a CPU ( PIC) and they use SPI communication ( MISO, MOSI, CLK, CS) between each control board

Elantric

#30
QuoteThinking now of developing a board for three displays above each other controlled by one mcp23017. Every board can control three displays and four switches. The displays can be mounted to the enclosure  with the 3D printed display supports that are already designed.


I suggest change the array to employ  adjacent horizontal displays and footswitches on one board

This has the benefit of allowing a stair/ step controller box design

rather like these:




sixeight

Quote from:  Elantric on July 12, 2016, 07:45:45 AMI suggest change the array to employ  adjacent horizontal displays and footswitches on one board

Would be nice, but a lot of design considerations are determined by the enclosure. Here is the plan now:



This design keeps the screw holes of the displays themselves free so they can be mounted to the 3D printed display mounts:



Two of the switches are below the blue boards. If PCB boards do not have to be rectangular, we could make cutaways in the board for the switches. Don't know how easy it is to get boards made that are not rectangular...

The LEDs will probably dissappear all together as we will use rgb displays. Neopixel LEDs can always be added like I have done in the prototype.  It is possible to leave markings on the enclosure to mark the holes.

QuoteThis has the benefit of allowing a stair/ step controller box design

It is hard to build an enclosure for a stair/step controller. It is impossible to bend them from sheet metal, so you will have to build them in a mould (die-casting). We have discussed this before. It is not feasible for small number production. Maybe one day when 3d printing  of large objects becomes cheaper.

HecticArt

Quote from:  Elantric on July 10, 2016, 03:53:21 PM
FWIW , those are actuators only , and still require a separate PCB mounted SMD momentary switch to function
http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/087147-Line-6-24-32-0108
You end up with equivalent mechanical operation as a Line-6 DL-4


Doesn't pulling the switches off of the PCB put less stress on the board, solder joints, and whatnot?
I may be thinking too much like a layman, but it seems like the stress on boards from all of that stomping would take it's toll over time.

admin

Its common knowledge to avoid the DL-4 design of Actuators pressing SMD momentary switches

most SMD momentary switches have a very short lifespan / MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure)

Ask any Line-6  / Digitech owner!

vanceg

Quote from:  HecticArt on July 12, 2016, 10:09:05 AM
Doesn't pulling the switches off of the PCB put less stress on the board, solder joints, and whatnot?
I may be thinking too much like a layman, but it seems like the stress on boards from all of that stomping would take it's toll over time.

I'd have to say that avoiding actuators and board mounted buttons/switches is a good idea.  Keep anything I step on off the circuit board.  It would seem this would be worth the extra $.  Laymen's opinion.

sixeight

#35
OK, switch actuators are out. They are also not easily available and are often quite expensive.

Maybe we should make space for the switches by adding cutaways to the display/switch driver boards.



But now there may not be space enough on the board, as there are 18 pins at the top of every display that will need to be connected.

sixeight

#36
Here is a side view. It looks like the switches will fit below the driver boards. And there is still space enough for the main board. I drew in a raspberry pi as a possible option board. The main board would be roughly in the same vertical position (but wider than the Pi)



sixeight

#37
To finish my day of drawing (burned a couple of hours doing this...), here is the main PCB board. Drawing in Sketchup really helps to get an idea of sizes and dimensions.



On the main board there are connections for:
* USB type A for midx-10, maybe this should be a stacked USB for midx-20 internal...
* 4x stereo jack for control/expression pedals
* 2x MIDI for midi in/out
* USB type B for midi and programming
* Small switch for putting the VController into programming mode (needed for updates)
* RRC2 Ethercon, which can also be used by non VG99 owners. It is basically power and midi in/out in one connector.
* DC power connector

On the left there is space for two expansion boards. The idea is to make two rectangular holes, roughly the size of a raspberry pi. You could stick a raspberry pi in there, but other stuff is also possible. A plate can go behind the holes if no expansion board is present.

I think this is pretty much what the production model will look like. I may add an on/off switch to the back. Sketchup file can be found here:
https://github.com/sixeight7/VController_v2/tree/master/Enclosure.
I use Sketchup 8 because it is free  :)

HecticArt

Nice!
I dig sketchup. It's great to work out all kinds of assemblies.
I'll use it for stuff that I don't expect to have troubles building just to help me double check the process.
That, and it's fun.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from:  sixeight on July 13, 2016, 05:49:25 AM
To finish my day of drawing (burned a couple of hours doing this...), here is the main PCB board. Drawing in Sketchup really helps to get an idea of sizes and dimensions.



On the main board there are connections for:
* USB type A for midx-10, maybe this should be a stacked USB for midx-20 internal...
* 4x stereo jack for control/expression pedals
* 2x MIDI for midi in/out
* USB type B for midi and programming
* Small switch for putting the VController into programming mode (needed for updates)
* RRC2 Ethercon, which can also be used by non VG99 owners. It is basically power and midi in/out in one connector.
* DC power connector

On the left there is space for two expansion boards. The idea is to make two rectangular holes, roughly the size of a raspberry pi. You could stick a raspberry pi in there, but other stuff is also possible. A plate can go behind the holes if no expansion board is present.

I think this is pretty much what the production model will look like. I may add an on/off switch to the back. Sketchup file can be found here:
https://github.com/sixeight7/VController_v2/tree/master/Enclosure.
I use Sketchup 8 because it is free  :)

Looks great, sixeight!  How about a 7-pin MIDI in connector so we can use phantom power via the MIDI cable instead of the Ethercon?

Also, do you think this design could be expandable?  In other words, link two of these together?  I like the idea of having one on stage and one backstage for remote control by someone else.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

sixeight

Quote from:  GuitarBuilder on July 14, 2016, 12:35:51 PM
Looks great, sixeight!  How about a 7-pin MIDI in connector so we can use phantom power via the MIDI cable instead of the Ethercon?

Tried to Google a PCB version of the 7 pin connector, but can't find one. But you can always add a non PCB version if you want. You could use an expansion slot for that.

QuoteAlso, do you think this design could be expandable?  In other words, link two of these together?  I like the idea of having one on stage and one backstage for remote control by someone else.

Anything is possible. It will be open source. It should be possible to add more buttons and displays. Up to 24 displays in total in theory. Though the enclosure will be designed for 16 buttons and 12 displays.

Elantric


sixeight

#42
Thanks Elantric. It looks like they are compatible with the 5 pin midi sockets. So if the PCB is designed for 7 pin midi, a five pin socket will also fit in the same space.

Is there a common way to do the pinout on these connectors?

gumtown

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

CodeSmart

Quote from:  gumtown on July 14, 2016, 03:52:09 PM
http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=FAMC_Liquid_Foot%2B



Dang, I tried to find that information earlier by surfing the Internet, wasn't sure what I found so I skipped it. Now I know how to do future MIDI designs. Thanks guys.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

sixeight

#45
Quote from:  sixeight on July 14, 2016, 02:10:29 PM
Thanks Elantric. It looks like they are compatible with the 5 pin midi sockets. So if the PCB is designed for 7 pin midi, a five pin socket will also fit in the same space.

No, that is not correct. The arrangement of the pins is different on the two plugs you posted. But on eBay most plugs have the same arrangement of pins. And that one is not compatible with 5 pin.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-MAB-7-SH-L-DIN-Jack-Connector-Female-7pin-PCB-Socket-goldplated-/151984226980?hash=item2362f742a4:g:22oAAOSwd4tULATP

Thanks Gumtown for the pinout of the connector.

gumtown

An optional "7 pin DIN socket" to "5 pin DIN plug" + "power plug" breakout adapter lead (schematic included with operating instruction manual) would be suffice.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

sixeight

#47
Quote from:  gumtown on July 15, 2016, 01:13:49 AM
An optional "7 pin DIN socket" to "5 pin DIN plug" + "power plug" breakout adapter lead (schematic included with operating instruction manual) would be suffice.

Or make a midi 7 pin to neutrik ethercon lead. The Ethercon fits the RRC2 connector on the VController.

Or there is also this connector which does seem to be compatible with a din 5 connector:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DIN-7-Pin-Circular-Jack-Female-Panel-Mount-PCB-Mount-Connector-Adapter-/301883236190?hash=item4649a49f5e:g:jL0AAOSwuAVW0aLl



Always hard to tell with these eBay sellers.

Elantric

Often what kills your PCB layout is that many suppliers of right angle circular DIN Female receptacles Change the pitch spacing of the two Sheild pins.

If you order from the wrong supplier , they may not fit your PCB.


sixeight

#49
Quote from:  Elantric on July 15, 2016, 07:41:03 AM
Often what kills your PCB layout is that many suppliers of right angle circular DIN Female receptacles Change the pitch spacing of the two Sheild pins.

I have seen PCB design with four shield pins, so both MIDI chassis types fit. Like this:



But for the 7 pin midi receptacles, I have come across three designs for the pin spacing that are in no way compatible with each other. I think I prefer this one: