Making a guitar microtonal

Started by clearlight, January 27, 2010, 08:39:35 AM

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clearlight

I had an idea that didn't quite pan out and could use some thoughts......

Idea:
Take two identical cheapy guitars and take the frets out of one and place them exactly in between each fret on the other.
The defretted guitar would be made into a fretless instrument.

Im using identical guitars to keep any grinding or finishing of the frets to a minimum since the size from one fret to the next is minimal.

Anyone  know of a better way to accomplish a microtonal guitar to experiment with on the cheap?
My Music
My Band Website
GUITARS: 2x RG1521, 3x RG321 w/gk, Rg721 Fretless Modified, AmStd FatStrat w/gk, various others....
XV5050,Triton etc..
KOMPLETE 7
VGUITAR Stuff: VG99, FC300, RC5-

Elantric


bob e

Mmmm, I second Elantric's excellent research.

clearlight

thanks for the links.
i was thinking a little more DIY as i currently have more time than money :)

My Music
My Band Website
GUITARS: 2x RG1521, 3x RG321 w/gk, Rg721 Fretless Modified, AmStd FatStrat w/gk, various others....
XV5050,Triton etc..
KOMPLETE 7
VGUITAR Stuff: VG99, FC300, RC5-

Elantric

If you read the links - you may find some DIY tips / advice / guidance.

I recall an article in the 1980's magazine "Polyphony"  - which explained how to use a standard MIDI guitar to drive a Microtonal MIDI interpreter application - that remaped the MIDI Guitar Input  - performed a real time conversion, and Output Microtonal MIDI Output - to drive a Sound Canvas GM Sound engine via standard MIDI Note on/off and appropriate pitch bend data  - to yield microtonal sounding results.

admin



Microtonal Keyboard Converter

Got a standard MIDI keyboard or MIDI Guitar? Retune it! TBX1 makes retuning as easy as pushing a button. Attach this little box to your synth and you can make every key play any pitch you want. It comes preloaded with 128 tunings for you to try out, and it stores tuning tables in 4 layers, totalling over 500 tunings, which you can easily edit using the free CSE Custom Scale Editor cross-platform software. Set up your own tuning, upload it to the Tuning Box and plug it into any General MIDI controller and synthesizer to make your music. Portable and ready for the stage, it even runs for eight hours on batteries.

Tuning
128 tables x 4 layers = 512 full range programmable tunings with Custom Scale Editor software
General MIDI compatibility — Compatibility Charts
Controls
jog dial: select and enter preset program parameters
MIDI LEDs: monitor MIDI IN and MIDI OUT traffic
LCD display: currently selected tuning, bank, patch and polyphony (with backlight ON/OFF switch)
sixteen channel switches: selectable MIDI output channel polyphony, from 1 to 16 voices
fifteen preset buttons: store and recall tuning, synthesizer bank and patch
14-bit MIDI pitch bend resolution: 0.01 cents
bypass switch: turn tuning function on and off without swapping cables
External MIDI Message Pedal / Sequencer Control
receive tuning table Changes
receive bank and patch changes
full sustain pedal support
full control of held key behavior when tuning table change messages are received
Inputs and Outputs
12V DC power input
MIDI IN: connect to any MIDI controller (keyboard, sequencer, etc.)
connect computer to MIDI IN to upload tunings
MIDI OUT: connect to any general MIDI tone module, sampler or computer MIDI interface for tuned output
sends the following MIDI data on selected channels
bank select, patch change, pitch bend range RPNs, 14-bit pitch bend
note on / note off (one note per channel = monotimbral up to 16 voice polyphony)
MIDI Velocity, Modulation, and Volume are passed as received at MIDI IN
MIDI THRU: sends unmodified MIDI data received at the MIDI in through to another unit.
Custom Scale Editor software
cross-platform compatibility (Mac OSX and Windows XP)
intuitive user interface
tunings formatted as text files
import Scala and .tun files
upload tunings via the tuning box MIDI in
international switching multi-plug power supply and 2 free MIDI cables included!


A good review using the TBX1 with MIDI guitar is here

http://www.unfretted.com/loader.php?LINK=/reviews/tbx1#upgrade

aliensporebomb

Very slick indeed.  Many, many possibilities.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric


Microtonal Guitar (Fixed Fret) - Tolgahan Çoğulu


https://www.youtube.com/user/TolgahanCogulu
Yeni videolarımdan haberdar olmak için Youtube sayfama "Abone" olabilirsiniz:




If you want to convert your guitar into a microtonal guitar, added frets are the easiest solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi-Sy...

Video: Maria Luisa Gambale
Recording: Dinçer Demirci at Studio Drum&Bass Istanbul.

I'd like to thank Maria Luisa Gambale for this great video, Dinçer Demirci for the recording, Erdem Şimşek for answering my makam-based questions, Briken Aliu for the microtonal fretboards and Ozan Yarman & Ricardo Moyano for the great arrangements.

Brak(E)man

It all depends what you mean by microtonal. The easiest way is to remove the frets and make a fretless.
If your looking at just temperament in all keys you need 33 frets per octave.
I have such a guitar in baritone length but regular tuning
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

abhijitnath

Or you can just be Prasanna and do it all on an unmodded guitar.



Brak(E)man

Quote from: abhijitnath on April 21, 2016, 04:03:50 AM
Or you can just be Prasanna and do it all on an unmodded guitar.
! No longer available

There's all the meends but not much micro phrasing
Very impressive and nice though
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

shawnb

I once asked a composer/violinist/guitarist why there wasn't more micro tonal work out there.   Why limit yourself to 12?

He showed me a portion of a score for violin with multiple sharps & flats.   I asked him to explain in guitarist terms, & he said "bend the string 'one string' across the fretboard."

Apparently more common than I thought.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Brak(E)man

That's true but playing a macam on a fretted guitar is extremely difficult and fast it's not possible there's not time to bend all the notes to the right pitch fi a high flat e  high flat B the rest just tempered , that's why they have Ouds and fretless guitars , the same with ragas , the extreme high and moveable frets on a sitar makes it possible
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#13
Or do like Jeff  Beck and learn to master slide and the whammy bar to play non western music scales as he demonstrates on "Nadia"
http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/under-investigation-jeff-beck/23068




Autana

Quote from: Elantric on April 20, 2016, 11:06:44 PM
! No longer available
Microtonal Guitar (Fixed Fret) - Tolgahan Çoğulu


http://www.youtube.com/user/TolgahanCogulu
Yeni videolarımdan haberdar olmak için Youtube sayfama "Abone" olabilirsiniz:



! No longer available
If you want to convert your guitar into a microtonal guitar, added frets are the easiest solution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi-Sy...

Video: Maria Luisa Gambale
Recording: Dinçer Demirci at Studio Drum&Bass Istanbul.

I'd like to thank Maria Luisa Gambale for this great video, Dinçer Demirci for the recording, Erdem Şimşek for answering my makam-based questions, Briken Aliu for the microtonal fretboards and Ozan Yarman & Ricardo Moyano for the great arrangements.


Santo cielo! all this microtonal fretboard approach is simply impressive!   just when I was beginning to give some rest to my neurons and memory cells, VGF, Elantric and you all arise with something new everyday. I must ask my doctor for extra ginkgo biloba recipes.
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Elantric on April 21, 2016, 07:28:48 AM
Or do like Jeff  Beck and learn to master slide and the whammy bar to play non western music scales as he demonstrates on "Nadia"
http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/under-investigation-jeff-beck/23068

https://g.co/kgs/62GGq



I hadn't heard Thanx a great song ,
I haven't listened much to mr beck except  highway jam with mr hammer

Although great its most likely much easier to play a fretless then to be a
Whammy bar equilibrist , but as long as it gets the work done
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Autana

#16
Quote from: Brak(E)man on April 21, 2016, 08:15:47 AM
Although great its most likely much easier to play a fretless then to be a
Whammy bar equilibrist , but as long as it gets the work done


Yes! agree,  other gifted player I admire so much for his special bending and vibrato arm "microtonal like"  approach is Scott Henderson, it's hard not discover the Jeff essence in this incredible performance:

! No longer available
GR-55, GP-10, GI-20, Godin xtSA, GodinNylon MultiAc, Giannini classical, 3 GK-3'd gtrs, Cube 80XL, Primova GKFX-21 (x2)

Fear just pulls you out of being true to music, which is coming from a place of love. Love is the opposite of fear. I stay away from anything fear-related.
- Tal Wilkenfeld -

Brak(E)man

#17
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17955.0

A song I wrote for an Cd like 7-8 years ago



Shows the easiness to play fast and with micro phrasing
Long slides etc, though firmly planted in the western tradition
Shows some of the possibilities of fretless guitar and VG
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

GovernorSilver

#18
Quote from: Elantric on April 20, 2016, 11:06:44 PM
! No longer available
Microtonal Guitar (Fixed Fret) - Tolgahan Çoğulu

Excellent video.

I have studied a teensy, tiny bit of the maqam music he talks about - a Persian version.

Based on his explanation, the Jeff Beck approach will not work - he clearly says the objective is to preserve the classical guitar tone. 

There are other issues as well - it is easier to understand after you have learned a maqam tune or two yourself and attempt to reproduce it on a standard 12-tone equal temperament fretted guitar. 

Prasanna does not play maqam btw.  A lot of gharana in Indian classical music (both Hindustani and Carnatic) have been influenced by Western tuning, via the harmonium (imported from Europe).  While there is undoubtedly still heavy usage of pitch bending/slides in these musics, they no longer target pitches between the 12 Western notes - no matter how much pitch fluctuations go on, when the singer or instrumentalist settles on a note, it is almost always one of the 12 notes - just like in American blues.  There may still be gharana out there that use the in-between notes, but their music rarely heard in the West.  In maqam you can still clearly hear "quarter-tones" but there's no standardized quarter-tone tunings in maqam.  A quarter-tone played by an Egyptian musician would be slightly different from that played by a Turkish one for example.

That said, David Torn is a wizard at incorporating phrasing ideas from maqam music into his playing on equal-tempered electric guitar w/ whammy bar.  But even he will tell you that when he wants to play maqam seriously, he picks up one of his ouds.  This is a guy who knows just about all the tricks for getting the "in between" pitches on western guitars too.

Elantric

#19
Read about Microtonal music here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal

Listen to it here:



read more here - the fretless guys dig that stuff


http://www.unfretted.com/loader.php?LINK=/reviews/tbx1


Plug this between the VG-99  MIDI Out and your Synths MIDI IN = instant microtonality

http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1buy.html


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1507.msg8141#msg8141

VG-88 Fretless patches
http://www.unfretted.com/extras/unfretted-archive/vg-88-patches/

VG-99 Fretless Patches
http://www.unfretted.com/extras/unfretted-archive/vg-99-patches/

GovernorSilver

#20
You're definitely better off using a fretless guitar if you want to play maqam - as opposed to the Jeff Beck or Prasanna approaches on standard fretted guitars.


admin


Bill Ruppert


Brak(E)man

Having 6 children where of two still in 3-5 grade and using legos.
After stepping on the same ( the legos not the kids ) for soon 30 years I don't think I could
use that guitar.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch