ATG - Hey I have an idea... (Seriously)

Started by Rhcole, August 18, 2017, 09:49:58 PM

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Rhcole

Why don't we go on the Auto-Tune Forums and invite all of their members HERE? We can take them over, they stop functioning at the end of October anyway...

Maybe we could even work out an informal deal with Antares so that they would make an announcement.

What do you think, Elantric?

GuitarBuilder

"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Rhcole

I wonder if we could host their software or other similar resources.

Rhcole

I just sent this message to Antares on their site:

"I know you are discontinuing further posts on your Auto-Tune forum at the end of October. I am one of the active posters on the VGuitar Forums, https://vguitarforums.com/. This site already has an Antares section, and I wonder if it would serve you for us to invite your users over to the VGuitar Forum? We could post materials, host information, anything you felt would be appropriate.

There would be nothing for us to gain from this financially, and it would provide an active and vital forum for your Auto-Tune customers. We also have very technically skilled members who can frequently solve problems related to hex pickups and their various products.

Would you be interested in collaborating in this way? Let me know. I'm not an administrator for this site but I am pretty well known and could certainly connect you with one or more of the people who run the site."

We will see what they say.

Majiken

Good idea! FWIW, I understand Henrik and Steve/Elantric are already quite familiar with each other...

As long as there is no implication of a formal connection between this forum and Antares, I can't imagine them having anything against it.
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Rhcole

Looks like Antares will refer people here.
Terrific! I'd like this section to be more robust.

I don't know why, before the discontinuation the ATG-1 never really penetrated my consciousness very well. The auto-tune was of minor interest, and while I knew the pitch shifts were better, I didn't connect the dots that they would be THAT much better.
It's like I didn't have an opinion one way or the other.

Really too bad, this is a fine technology.

Rhcole

Antares posted a notice on their forum sending people here.

I added this note:

"I bought an ATG-1 a few weeks ago. It's fabulous. I am a long-time poster on the VGuitar forums, which is probably the most robust site on the Internet for hex pickup technology products and guitar synths. Check it out here https://www.vguitarforums.com.

Since this site will be frozen soon, I thought it would be great if we could invite everybody over to our forum. We have a good Antares section, smart, and friendly people. Antares has posted a notice inviting users to join VGuitarforums on this forum, and I thought I would personally invite everybody.

Come on over.

Rhcole"

admin


FransFromBavaria

I hope a solution will be worked out to keep it possible to update the still unsold ATG-1s after Antares ends their support for this. I heard from a dealer in Europe they have a small number of ATG-1s left and they sell them for a very good price.

Rhcole

Most of these units are at $699. If I had a few of these for sale I would update them myself, otherwise you would be selling an inherently inferior product once updates are no longer available.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: Rhcole on September 24, 2017, 11:17:54 AM
Most of these units are at $699. If I had a few of these for sale I would update them myself, otherwise you would be selling an inherently inferior product once updates are no longer available.

I got mine for $399 and updated to the latest firmware.  I would certainly not call it inherently inferior at this point; there's nothing like it on the market.  Even if another company were to enter the auto-tune field, they'd be hard-pressed to beat the Antares ATG technology.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Rhcole

GB,

The inferior product I reference would be a new ATG-1 that can't be upgraded because the website is shut off. Those could be liabilities in the market, especially if you wanted the pedal steel update and couldn't buy it. Vendors need to be on their toes with their existing inventories, because the clock is ticking.

The ATG-1 itself is terrific, best pitch-shifting product by anybody ever.

Elantric

QuoteThe ATG-1 itself is terrific, best pitch-shifting product by anybody ever.

Too bad this fact was not effectively conveyed to the masses

Rhcole

NO KIDDING!

Should have been:
"Cleanest, most realistic pitch-shifted tunings anybody has ever developed, and you can have 8 of them per bank of presets!
...Also, it will auto-tune your guitar if you want it to."

vanceg

Absolutely.  The ATG-1 is, hands down, the cleanest sounding pitch shift product anyone has made for guitar yet.  If only they hadn't mentioned that it could tune your guitar for you. 

Quote from: Rhcole on September 25, 2017, 11:43:07 AM
Should have been:
"Cleanest, most realistic pitch-shifted tunings anybody has ever developed, and you can have 8 of them per bank of presets!
...Also, it will auto-tune your guitar if you want it to."

Elantric

#15
Quote from: vanceg on September 25, 2017, 12:21:07 PM
Absolutely.  The ATG-1 is, hands down, the cleanest sounding pitch shift product anyone has made for guitar yet.  If only they hadn't mentioned that it could tune your guitar for you.

At least I can rest easy knowing I tried to convince Antares that they had the "hands down, the cleanest sounding pitch shift product anyone has made for guitar yet" - three years in a row at NAMM  - but they had great difficulty in communicating to the masses the ATG's pitch shifting / Alternate tuning capabilities in their product marketing materials and ATG video demos.

Once folks agreed to watch an Antares "Auto Tune for Guitar" product demo ( which was very difficult proposal  - because most guitarists "pre-judged and wrote off " the entire ATG system as being a non-starter based solely upon the "Auto Tune for Guitar" product name)  , the next hurdle was many folks just focused on the sound of the Antares Guitar PU modeling. I think Antares achieved their PU modeling goals well, but others have a very different opinion.     

Rhcole

If you watched the videos and read the materials on their site, you saw the root cause of the product's downfall from day one. Essentially, they felt the auto-tune tech for vocalists would be embraced by the guitar community with the same zeal as singers.

They were PROUD of and ABSOLUTELY ENROLLED in this concept because in their minds this tech is what made them different and special. They considered it a breakthrough.

Clearly, they never surveyed or conducted research on their customers. At least nothing anybody paid attention to.

I'm sure we don't regret this as much as Antares does, but it is still heartbreaking for those of us who love premium guitar technology. Another woulda coulda shoulda.

You wish somebody would pay enough attention to have a success and develop further from there.


chrish

Until I read about it here recently, I had no idea what the ATG 1 did, didn"t know it was hex 13 pin and barely new Antares existed.

FransFromBavaria

I don't know if i am allowed to post that here, but there is a shop in the UK that has a very small number of new ATG-1 and two unpacked (for display) units for a very good price. Anybody interested should buy them before the server from Antares for the system update gets shut down end of october.
Look here:
http://www.sonic8.com/dach/index.php/antares/antares-atg1.html

I am not related to anybody in the shop nor a friend nor an employee . I just successfully updated my new ATG-1 and it would be a shame if the remaining units would be left on v3.1. I used a cheap Midisport Uno USB which worked effortlessly with my mac on 10.10 - you need a specifiy MIDI interface with good drivers because of the data dump, but those which already have an ATG-1 should know that.

vanceg

I think I'm just about done with the entire idea of selling modeling of any sort to guitar players.  It's never going to be exact.  I mean, shoot, every 57 strat sounds a little different from the next.  Watching people evaluate models is becoming more and more excruciating to me as the years wear on. This obsession with getting the model to sound "Right" where "Right" really means "what _I_ happen to remember or believe that the actual physical version of this device sounds like" is a fools journey.
Don't get me wrong - I rather like modeling technology.  The Kempler sounds fantastic, and I really enjoy a lot of the modeled COSM or Line 6 sounds... they don't sound exactly like any of the gear they model, but they do provide something of that general description.... and that's what I'm looking for... something that alters the sound in some useful and pleasant way.  There is no case in which playing an emulation of anything will every completely feel like the same experience using that piece of gear it's emulating.  And I am wearing out of hearing guitarists dismiss entire technologies or devices just because they don't fit some idea they have about what the original sounded like.   

What triggered this comment was your saying that some folks really don't like the pickup emulation in the ATG1... Like you, I rather enjoy them... but I do agree that perhaps they don't sound like dead-on copies of the original.....




Quote from: Elantric on September 25, 2017, 01:16:38 PM
At least I can rest easy knowing I tried to convince Antares that they had the "hands down, the cleanest sounding pitch shift product anyone has made for guitar yet" - three years in a row at NAMM  - but they had great difficulty in communicating to the masses the ATG's pitch shifting / Alternate tuning capabilities in their product marketing materials and ATG video demos.

Once folks agreed to watch an Antares "Auto Tune for Guitar" product demo ( which was very difficult proposal  - because most guitarists "pre-judged and wrote off " the entire ATG system as being a non-starter based solely upon the "Auto Tune for Guitar" product name)  , the next hurdle was many folks just focused on the sound of the Antares Guitar PU modeling. I think Antares achieved their PU modeling goals well, but others have a very different opinion.     

cags12

Quote from: vanceg on October 01, 2017, 02:35:12 PM
I think I'm just about done with the entire idea of selling modeling of any sort to guitar players.  It's never going to be exact.  I mean, shoot, every 57 strat sounds a little different from the next.  Watching people evaluate models is becoming more and more excruciating to me as the years wear on. This obsession with getting the model to sound "Right" where "Right" really means "what _I_ happen to remember or believe that the actual physical version of this device sounds like" is a fools journey.
Don't get me wrong - I rather like modeling technology.  The Kempler sounds fantastic, and I really enjoy a lot of the modeled COSM or Line 6 sounds... they don't sound exactly like any of the gear they model, but they do provide something of that general description.... and that's what I'm looking for... something that alters the sound in some useful and pleasant way.  There is no case in which playing an emulation of anything will every completely feel like the same experience using that piece of gear it's emulating.  And I am wearing out of hearing guitarists dismiss entire technologies or devices just because they don't fit some idea they have about what the original sounded like.   

What triggered this comment was your saying that some folks really don't like the pickup emulation in the ATG1... Like you, I rather enjoy them... but I do agree that perhaps they don't sound like dead-on copies of the original.....

Totally agree. Instead of supporting innovation and help the technology to advanced just like the AMP modelling field, they simply trash out the technologies.

This recent TGP thread is the exact example. A few individuals only trying to diminish the existing options and developing's, not even having tried them, shaping minds of those who may like to try them. In the end, all translates to situations similar to what happened to Antares in their incursion to the Guitar market and several others.
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/what-about-guitar-pickups-modeling.1865701/

I myself have just discovered all the wonders of Guitar modelling, Alt tunings, Synth, Midi, etc; and even knowing they are not perfect, I am super exited to try them all out for the versatility it gives.

GuitarBuilder

I'm always amazed at the large number of "guitarists" on forums (you never really know who or what they are, right?) that trash ANY innovation without trying or testing, be it shape, materials, electronics, DSP, amplifier technology, etc.  IMHO they are hiding their inability to understand progress behind outright denial and aggression, perhaps similar to the book burning in the Dark Ages.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

#22
The point I was trying to make earlier about not knowing anything about the ATG1, before reading about it here is that I'd have to wonder whether or not manufacturers do a good job with customer acquisition.

I mean it's hard to Market a product that is off people's radars in exactly what it does and the sounds that can be created with that product. And in my case I didn't even know of its existence or that it was 13 pin hex product and I've been using hex since the GR50.

I only learned about the vg-8 when I stumbled upon a video tape playing in a music store. I only learned about the existence of the GR50 technology through interaction with a music store owner who new how to demo that product.

I only read the first page of that other forums link but it didn't appear that those people had any knowledge of the ATG1 either or what it was capable of doing.


I didn't know about the Spicetone 6appeal either before reading about it here and that pedal introduced me to the wonderous world of analog hex guitar processing.

Elantric

#23
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on October 02, 2017, 09:18:08 AM
I'm always amazed at the large number of "guitarists" on forums (you never really know who or what they are, right?) that trash ANY innovation without trying or testing, be it shape, materials, electronics, DSP, amplifier technology, etc.  IMHO they are hiding their inability to understand progress behind outright denial and aggression, perhaps similar to the book burning in the Dark Ages.

Its a global human condition where "trolls" attempt to maintain conformity among the masses which restricts many technological advancements   - get used to it in any discipline or high tech endeavor.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies


There are countless examples in history where the old guard who are self identified as advocating the "old ways are all you need" and  being principal gatekeepers to prevent change must die off,  before any major advancement in technology can be globally accepted as the new norm by the new generations. 
====

https://hbr.org/2012/09/ten-reasons-people-resist-chang


Leadership is about change, but what is a leader to do when faced with ubiquitous resistance? Resistance to change manifests itself in many ways, from foot-dragging and inertia to petty sabotage to outright rebellions. The best tool for leaders of change is to understand the predictable, universal sources of resistance in each situation and then strategize around them. Here are the ten I've found to be the most common.

Loss of control. Change interferes with autonomy and can make people feel that they've lost control over their territory. It's not just political, as in who has the power. Our sense of self-determination is often the first things to go when faced with a potential change coming from someone else. Smart leaders leave room for those affected by change to make choices. They invite others into the planning, giving them ownership.

Excess uncertainty. If change feels like walking off a cliff blindfolded, then people will reject it. People will often prefer to remain mired in misery than to head toward an unknown. As the saying goes, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know." To overcome inertia requires a sense of safety as well as an inspiring vision. Leaders should create certainty of process, with clear, simple steps and timetables.

Surprise, surprise! Decisions imposed on people suddenly, with no time to get used to the idea or prepare for the consequences, are generally resisted. It's always easier to say No than to say Yes. Leaders should avoid the temptation to craft changes in secret and then announce them all at once. It's better to plant seeds — that is, to sprinkle hints of what might be coming and seek input.

Everything seems different. Change is meant to bring something different, but how different? We are creatures of habit. Routines become automatic, but change jolts us into consciousness, sometimes in uncomfortable ways. Too many differences can be distracting or confusing. Leaders should try to minimize the number of unrelated differences introduced by a central change. Wherever possible keep things familiar. Remain focused on the important things; avoid change for the sake of change.

Loss of face. By definition, change is a departure from the past. Those people associated with the last version — the one that didn't work, or the one that's being superseded — are likely to be defensive about it. When change involves a big shift of strategic direction, the people responsible for the previous direction dread the perception that they must have been wrong. Leaders can help people maintain dignity by celebrating those elements of the past that are worth honoring, and making it clear that the world has changed. That makes it easier to let go and move on.

Concerns about competence. Can I do it? Change is resisted when it makes people feel stupid. They might express skepticism about whether the new software version will work or whether digital journalism is really an improvement, but down deep they are worried that their skills will be obsolete. Leaders should over-invest in structural reassurance, providing abundant information, education, training, mentors, and support systems. A period of overlap, running two systems simultaneously, helps ease transitions.

More work. Here is a universal challenge. Change is indeed more work. Those closest to the change in terms of designing and testing it are often overloaded, in part because of the inevitable unanticipated glitches in the middle of change, per "Kanter's Law" that "everything can look like a failure in the middle." Leaders should acknowledge the hard work of change by allowing some people to focus exclusively on it, or adding extra perqs for participants (meals? valet parking? massages?). They should reward and recognize participants — and their families, too, who often make unseen sacrifices.

Ripple effects. Like tossing a pebble into a pond, change creates ripples, reaching distant spots in ever-widening circles. The ripples disrupt other departments, important customers, people well outside the venture or neighborhood, and they start to push back, rebelling against changes they had nothing to do with that interfere with their own activities. Leaders should enlarge the circle of stakeholders. They must consider all affected parties, however distant, and work with them to minimize disruption.

Past resentments. The ghosts of the past are always lying in wait to haunt us. As long as everything is steady state, they remain out of sight. But the minute you need cooperation for something new or different, the ghosts spring into action. Old wounds reopen, historic resentments are remembered — sometimes going back many generations. Leaders should consider gestures to heal the past before sailing into the future.

Sometimes the threat is real. Now we get to true pain and politics. Change is resisted because it can hurt. When new technologies displace old ones, jobs can be lost; prices can be cut; investments can be wiped out. The best thing leaders can do when the changes they seek pose significant threat is to be honest, transparent, fast, and fair. For example, one big layoff with strong transition assistance is better than successive waves of cuts.

Although leaders can't always make people feel comfortable with change, they can minimize discomfort. Diagnosing the sources of resistance is the first step toward good solutions. And feedback from resistors can even be helpful in improving the process of gaining acceptance for change.



chrish

#24
I'd like to see change in the way opinion pieces are presented to include references to science that supports that opinion.

Human behavior is extremely complex.