Katana Dev - Access additional Amps and FX inside Katana

Started by Beanow, April 06, 2017, 12:45:35 PM

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Elantric

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/23903041/
Quote from: Barquentine, post: 23902956, member: 126193
So, Boss marketing claiming that the Katana is based on entirely new technology which goes 'way beyond modeling' is a pack of lies ? Nobody bothered by this ?
I'm NOT bothered one bit.

Re: Are the Katana DSP amp models same as GT-100?
We dont know ( but they sure dont feel the same to me, Katana's DSP amp models sound and feel  improved! ) - re-read my prior post explaining what the situaton is
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/23900207/
It remains to be seen if there is a 100% match between 2014 GT 100 2.0 amp models and 2016 Katana sneaky amp models. (but they might be same as 2016 Boss GT-1 models . . . hmmm?)
( I own a GT-100 and IMHO the Katana versions sound better / improved - more dynamic range and compared to GT-100  , the Katana high gain Amp models  clean up when you roll your guitar volume down.
Thats a pretty big deal for me at Live gigs.( Line-6 are you paying attention?)

The only thing that we've determined is,  there exists an additional  range of great sounding amplifier models ( and more FX, like "TeraEcho") hidden inside every katana which have identical midi SYSEX address space as the GT 100.
This is not to say that these are the exact same amp models as a GT 100 (that would be assuming too much)

The unspoken "element TRUTH is the fact that -Roland  / Boss R&D continually improve the breed of the DSP Tube Amplifier modeling algorithms they employ in their products, regardless of whatever branding the marketing department want to name it this week: be it "COSM" or "Tube Logic" or "SuperNATURAL", or AIRD or whatever.
When judging an amp , I don't get hung up on the marketing buzz words. I prefer hands on use, play my guitar into the amp under consideration and close my eyes and after 15 minutes of playing and I can determine my level of enthusiasm (based on Tone, touch response, sustain, abililty for note "bloom  and Feel.

I remain very enthusiastic about the stock Katana 100-112

But The discovery of the sneaky amps does open doors for expanded sonic opportunities for all katana amplifier owners.




So I dont feel bothered, instead I feel like Jed Clampett

"Come and listen to my story about a man named Jed
A poor guitarist, barely kept his G.A.S habit fed,
And then one day he was shootin at some sysex code ,
And up through the Katana DSP come a tone Like a ragin tube .

Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea.

Well the first thing you know ol Jed's a Tone millionaire,"

gumtown

QuoteBoss marketing claiming that the Katana is based on entirely new technology which goes 'way beyond modeling'
The key word "based on" entirely new technology, does not mean it is all entirely new technology, but only has a small offering of something new.
In this case, I say the cabinet modelling section has been re-coded into EL34 tube emulation.


Quotewhich goes 'way beyond modelling'
Since no value of quantity is given, I would say just a few inches.
I would guess (since stated else where about the WAZA based design of speaker/cab relationship), that the cabinet open back design may have specific porting design to be more punchy at a specific frequency range.
I am not sure of the power amp design, maybe it might has power supply sag built in, but that is more likely built into the tube emulation.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

vtgearhead

Open back combo cabinets are dipole radiators.  I doubt there's anything special about Katana in that respect.  I do think the speaker itself is a critical part of the equation. 

Agree that they probably spent a considerable amount of time improving the tube emulation.  With all these new amp models being discovered, I can't help but wonder if there was a good reason (beyond marketing concerns) for not exposing them.  Perhaps not all models are optimally tweaked in Katana context?

Beanow

#28
After more digging around in the Katana's MIDI guts, I've mapped out a large amount of what the Katana can and cannot do compared to the GT-100 (which it's strongly based on).
Most importantly I started with what you all want to know:

What can you do in your patches that isn't supposed to be possible with the Kantana?
The Sneaky Patch features!

The full document can be found on Github:

https://github.com/katana-dev/docs/blob/master/tables/patch-capabilities.md

Some confirmed features:

  • Sneaky Effect types (like the Tera Echo)
  • Simultaneous effects (Booster + Mod and Delay + FX at the same time)
  • Effect ordering (Chain 1-3 setting can be overruled)
  • Effect flipping

I've also included a list of what I wasn't able to confirm yet and why.
If you're interested in the reverse engineering these may be worth looking into.

Further down the document I also have a list of things that are force disabled.
Some of these sadly include:

  • Dual amp mode
  • Cabinet simulation
  • T-Comp, Gain SW, Solo SW in the amp settings
  • Master EQ
  • Pedal FX

For the majority of these features, the best tool to try these out with is Katana FXFloorBoard.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=20625.0


CodeSmart

Fantastic work!!!
In my thinking the possibility with simultaneous effects is a real game changer with the Katana.
Thank you for all the work you bring on to us coding guys.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Beanow

Likewise thank you all for picking it up so quickly in software/firmware.
It was because good tools with the sneaky amps followed so quickly that I decided more digging was the thing to focus on for me.

Multiple effects and ordering them any way you like combined is awesome stuff I find.
Also Tera Echo :D

Had a good amount of fun with this testing it out how far it will go and if it would show DSP issues (I was not able to make it choke, of course).
Made a fun ambient tone with Katana + POD HD500X in 4 cable setup. If I were to give it a name it'd be: seconds of delay, hours of fun.

(HD500X) Tube drive distortion
V
Send to Katana Input
V
Tape Delay
V
Plate Reverb
V
Send to HD500X Return
V
(HD500X) Wah pedal
V
(HD500X) Looper
V
Output to Katana Return
V
Treble Boost
V
Amp JC-120
V
Tera Echo (FX)
V
Flanger (Mod)

CodeSmart

Quote from:  Beanow on April 12, 2017, 10:12:33 AM
Likewise thank you all for picking it up so quickly in software/firmware.
Unfortunately Easter holiday is all dedicated to travelling for me, but I'll catch up later.
In the mean time, if possible and time, maybe you could describe a little bit more about the addresses for dual effects per knob implementation in your document, saving us some time in case everything is fully clear to you. Unfortunately I didn't get Gumtowns Katana FloorBoard connecting to the Katana with my Win10 PC today...used USB cable to the Kat Head and KATANA as IN and OUT in MIDI settings.
Cheers
Robert
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

mercury1

Sneaky vintage rectifier loaded with Gumtown's floorboard editor = TOTAL TUBULAR HEAVEN !!! .....Thank you guys for all your hard work , you are spectacular !  Katana may be the best sounding amp I've ever had
Gr-55, Gr-33, Gr-1, Vg-88, Jamman looper, Brian More 88.13  ,/ 8.13 , Fender hm strat( gk-3 ), Hammer( int gk-2) , Behringer V-ampire Lx1200 / fcb1010


Beanow

Quote from:  CodeSmart on April 12, 2017, 02:24:29 PMcould describe a little bit more about the addresses for dual effects per knob implementation

You're right I didn't go into detail in this document.

The Katana's knobs as they work on the front panel are mapped to single addresses. These are like high-level convenience addresses in the system range.
Take 00 00 04 27 for Booster/Mod. It will do ON/OFF for both, effect levels, and in case of booster also changes the drive value.

In a GT-100 style patch range that would be a bunch of separate addresses, say you have a phaser on Mod.
.. .. 01 40 FX1 On/Off
.. .. 02 7B FX1 Phaser Effect Level

But now want a drive pedal of sorts too.
.. .. 00 30 OD/DS On/Off
.. .. 00 32 OD/DS Drive
.. .. 00 37 OD/DS Effect Level

When you write to these patch addresses with SysEx, it simply works and enables the effects.
But as soon as you touch the knob, or write to the 00 00 04 27 address, it will manage these underlying addresses for you and revert back to a single effect.

This is why you can already do this in the Katana FloorBoard. It started from a modified GT-100 implementation and doesn't use the convenience addresses.

Interesting to note is that the convenience addresses try to work in both directions. Changing the effect level in the patch addresses for an effect that is ON will also update the value of the convenience address. I assume this is so in BTS the knob will be in a position relatively close to what you've got and you don't get any big jumps when you change it. This of course isn't going to work properly anymore when you have both effects on.

A setup I assume people will want to use is the GA-FC style effects stompboxing. You can do this with 5 rather than 3 effects using the same principles.
Because the convenience address will manage the inactive side's On/Off boolean and will set the effect level to 0, it will seem setting the boolean to ON doesn't work.
Just make sure your effect level is already written ahead of time and toggling the boolean will give you the stompbox.

The main risk I see for a live performance here is touching the knobs.
Should you be using multiple effects and someone touches the knob, it will dial one to 0 and you can't "stompbox" it back on. You have to reload your tone to get the effect level back.

You could theoretically make a "decoupled" mode where you monitor SysEx coming from the Katana, detect when changes in the convenience address are immediately followed by setting an effect to be completely off and level 0, then restore the previous values for that effect. This gives you an audible stop of the effect, requires tracking the effect states locally, but at least it's instantly back on without reloading your entire patch.

Edit actually thinking about it, it might be done stateless too.
Query which Ch1-4 preset is active. Query the preset value (i.e. 10 01 .. .. for CH 1). Write it to the panel range (60 00 .. ..).




In terms of saving time I would start with https://github.com/katana-dev/docs/blob/master/tables/patch-capabilities.md#sysex-patch-blocks
So you don't spend time mapping the addresses that have forced values.

Booster and Delay are easier to implement because their effect level addresses don't depend on it's type parameter.
So I'd recommend testing by using the knob to turn on the other half (Mod or FX). Then your SysEx messages to add effects to that.

admin

#36
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/boss-katana-amplifiers.1744135/page-367#post-23966886

Quote from: fr8_trane, post: 23966957, member: 5644Ya know... I havent tried panel mode since I loaded the sneaky amps. I do know that the sneaky amps loaded into their respective channels do remain after power cycling and that I can tweak the amp knobs to change their sound in real time without the BTS.


QuoteCan confirm that you can write the sneaky amps into the Tone Settings section (buttons 1, 2, 3 or 4) and use the amps Bass, Mid and Treble tone controls without it reverting to a factory amp. However, if you touch the Amp Type knob, then it reverts to factory amps. I'm testing the sneaky amps in the panel section now and will report back.


https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/23967305/


Quote
Can also confirm that Sneaky amps persist in Panel Mode after a power cycle. Also persists after switching to another preset and back. I used the FX Floorboard to set the panel amp, then switched to another preset, powered down, waited 20 seconds and then powered up. The sneaky amp remained in the panel.


QuoteYeah. I open the sneaky live set and just drag the sneaky amp to the channel I want and Hit save. Once the sneaky amp is in the channel you can edit all the parameters in BTS as normal. I spent all day sunday jamming with the Sneaky amps in my basement music room away from the computer. Power cycled many times, adjusted the amp knobs for more or less gain or volume and made EQ tweaks.


Thanks for the info

mchad


I've just been reading through these posts and this news is huge. Congrats to all involved in discovering and making these extra features accessible. I'm getting my head around it because I hadn't intended to use my Katanas to their full potential. I was going for outboard effects. But now!....

One minor thought I had with this. Is it possible Boss had future plans to release this extra functionality down the track and that just got railroaded? And a future official Boss firmware update renders any 'sneaky amp/effects' functions neutered? Should we avoid firmware updates?

I don't want to be a harbinger of doom but just sayin'.

jwhitcomb3

Quote from: mchad on April 20, 2017, 07:03:16 PM
I've just been reading through these posts and this news is huge. Congrats to all involved in discovering and making these extra features accessible. I'm getting my head around it because I hadn't intended to use my Katanas to their full potential. I was going for outboard effects. But now!....

One minor thought I had with this. Is it possible Boss had future plans to release this extra functionality down the track and that just got railroaded? And a future official Boss firmware update renders any 'sneaky amp/effects' functions neutered? Should we avoid firmware updates?

I don't want to be a harbinger of doom but just sayin'.
After years of complaints about how rarely Boss updates their software, this may be the first post expressing concern about what happens when/if Boss actually decides to provide an update!  ;D

Tcaron20

Another thank you here for the sneaky amps patches. Was impressed by the amp but these patches allow me to customize the amp for various acoustic situations for my regular gigs. Some rooms need more highs,some more lows. Have not found a sound that I could not adjust to my liking. Enough parameters to get me where I need to be. Wish I have 4 more banks on the fly!

Now where the %^&* can I get a GA-FC!!!!!

Tom


Elantric

Is it possible the default panel mode amplifiers in Katana can be changed to one of the new sneaky amps?

admin

Since I don't see indication of a path for reassigning the default Cab model on the Sneaky Amps , can I assume this is not possible?

vtgearhead

Do we even know for sure that it's using a cab simulation?

Beanow

Quote from: admsustainiac on May 09, 2017, 01:21:42 PM
Since I don't see indication of a path for reassigning the default Cab model on the Sneaky Amps , can I assume this is not possible?

Unfortunately it is disabled by this here: Preamp A -> Speaker type forced OFF.

admin

#45
QuoteIs there a list of what amp make/model each sneaky amp is meant to recreate?


Best to compare
Sneaky Amp table: https://github.com/katana-dev/docs/blob/master/tables/amp-types.md

Match the names with those in GT100 here
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/GT-100_parameter_e02.pdf

Beanow

Quote from: admsustainiac on May 24, 2017, 08:08:16 AM

Best to compare
Sneaky Amp table: https://github.com/katana-dev/docs/blob/master/tables/amp-types.md

Macth the names with those in GT100 here
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/GT-100_parameter_e02.pdf


Good idea, I took the MIDI implementation document which doesn't have the "TWEED - This models a Fender Bassman 4 x 10" Combo" kind of comments.
Since this document lets me copy paste, I can add this to the table.

Oh and this one *does* use R-FIER instead of R-FIRE. Definitely prefer to fix that then xD

Beanow

https://github.com/katana-dev/docs/blob/master/data/sneaky-amps-1.0.2.csv

What do you think? Better than https://github.com/katana-dev/docs/blob/master/tables/amp-types.md?

I didn't find the bogner or orange in the GT-100 doc. Looking at their numbers maybe they were added in a later version?