GK-13 Pin Cable FAQ

Started by Elantric, November 19, 2008, 11:44:28 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Elantric

#50
Its very possible you have a bad intermittent connection inside the GK-3
The latest batches of GK-3's  have many reports of poor internal soldering and dead / intermittent strings
If you are still under warranty - use it!

Sedgewick

To me, it sounds like a cold solder joint on the GR-55 circuit board.  So like Elantric said, get it repaired under warrantee ( if applicable ).  Just to validate, does plugging & unplugging any other 1/4" jack nearby have the same effect ?

gumtown

Quote from:  Sedgewick on July 02, 2012, 05:58:39 PM
To me, it sounds like a cold solder joint on the GR-55 circuit board.  So like Elantric said, get it repaired under warrantee ( if applicable ).  Just to validate, does plugging & unplugging any other 1/4" jack nearby have the same effect ?
I think it is more to do with the GK-3 on one guitar, as the problem is only related to one guitar and not another.
Perhaps the GK-3 13 pin socket has an antioxidant coating too?
I had simular problems, and sprayed a bit of '*stuff*' in the GK-3 13 pin end which seemed to fix it.
DeOxit is 'the stuff' to use.

(*stuff* being WD40 which was all i had at hand at the time).
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

underfeather

when my 3rd kept dropping out it was because the gk pickup itself went bad....   I to could bring it back by unplugging the cord (midi) n plugging it back in. 
brought it in and they replaced the pickup n been fine ever since...

Green Lantern

#54
Quote from:  Sedgewick on July 02, 2012, 05:58:39 PM
To me, it sounds like a cold solder joint on the GR-55 circuit board.  So like Elantric said, get it repaired under warrantee ( if applicable ).  Just to validate, does plugging & unplugging any other 1/4" jack nearby have the same effect ?

I have yet to try plugging into any of the other 1/4" jacks on the GR-55 to see if that rectifies the problem. Next time it happens, I will be sure to do that. As stated, I'm assured that going into at least the headphone jack fixes it every time. It never fails. Why that happens... no idea. Also, just to clear up any possible confusion, unplugging and replugging the MIDI cable makes no difference. Going into the 1/4" headphones jack is what I've learned fixes the problem, at least temporarily. I have yet to discover what sets the problem off. I don't know if it's completely random, or if it's triggered by something.

It's my personal belief that the GK-3 has a problem. Unfortunately, I got my GR-55 used but in "like new" condition. It had the box, papers, plastic wrappings, everything in completely mint condition. I bought it about four months ago on eBay. Therefore, I suppose I'm just S.O.L. Oh well, but I suppose this is one reason why I have two synth guitars. One of these days I'll probably just get a new pickup.

Thanks a lot for your replies everyone, and if anyone still has any ideas, I'd appreciate the input!

Mrchevy

If you have the funds, you could always just buy a new GK3 and see if it still does it with the SG. If so just return it and get a refund or store credit for something else. Again, if you have the funds. Or do you know someone else who has one you could borrow for a few days to see?
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#56
Quoteunplugging and replugging the MIDI cable makes no difference.

Are you talking about the 13 pin cable, or a separate 5 pin MIDI cable?

These are two very separate things.

And to be correct , so we are all on  the same page,  the 13 pin cable is NOT a MIDI cable. Roland calls the cable that goes to your GK-3  a  "GK Cable"


These GK 13 pin cables  are available in three different lengths

QuoteThese cables are available in lengths of 10 feet (GKC-3), 15 feet (GKC-5) and 30 feet (GKC-10).



http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=91&ParentId=53


They all have 13 pins + One Shield which translate to:

Pins #1-6 =  Six buffered unbalanced audio connections (one per string)
Pin #7      =  Buffered unbalanced audio connection for Normal Guitar pickups
Pin#8       =  0V to +5VDC  Control Voltage output for Synth/ COSM modeling Volume 
Pin#9       =  No Connection (except GK-3 which uses this pin as a control voltage output for GK-3's 3-way switch position.

Pin #10    =  Switch "S1" detect
Pin #11    =  Switch "S2" detect
 
Pin #12    = +7VDC power
Pin #13    = -7VDC power

The round chrome metal circular shaped part of the DIN 13 plug is the Only Ground path connection for all the above.

That's 14 connections total

Observe NONE of these connections are MIDI !!
 
For reference a block diagram of what is inside a typical 13 pin guitar preamp see below:

Roland GK-3 Circuit
http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1812013/1372711512_111968099_GK3_internal_zps5c5d2c3d.png

I highly recommend EVERY new GR-55 owner follow the exact procedure detailed in this thread below prior to using the GR-55:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0

QuoteOften "new" Asian built electronics contacts, cable pins, Jacks, get coated with a very thin film of anti-corosive chemical film - to survive the boat trip on the pacific. Older gear will suffer from oxidation / corrosion just sitting in contact with the atmosphere where smog, ozone, dirt, sand, beer, sugar from spilled mixed drinks work in concert to destroy the integrity of the 14 separate electrical connections within the 13 pin cable interface.
This results in intermittent noises, crackles, Hum, string signal dropouts, weak string response, poor GTR to MIDI tracking  and a host of other anomalies.


To remove and breakdown this invisible film (new cables)  , or remove / clean the oxidation layer (old cables) from the Cable & Connector contacts, perform the following sequence  :

1 ) Apply a small amount of Caig De-Oxit to all 13pin connections on both ends of the cable. Dont forget the 13 pin connectors on your Guitar and your processor (VG-99,GR-55, etc)

2) At one end of the Roland GK13 pin cable, Depress the Cable lock on the 13pin male DIN plug end.

3) While keeping the Cable lock depressed, rapidly insert and remove the 13 pin male DIN plug end at the GR-55 / VG-99 "GK IN" jack. Rapidly do this at least 10 times.

4) Swap cable ends.

5) Repeat Step #3 above.

6) Now, while keeping the Cable lock depressed, rapidly insert and remove the 13 pin male DIN plug end at the GK-3 "GK IN" jack.  Rapidly do this at least 10 times.

7) Swap cable ends.

8 ) Repeat Step #6 above.


NOTE - DO NOT APPLY TOO MUCH CONTACT CLEANER - THAT CAN CAUSE OTHER PROBLEMS!
---
The above procedure may restore your older Roland GK 13 cables, because over a period of time, the electrical connections are exposed to air and tend to develop an oxidation layer that restricts proper electron flow.

Heres a Link to Caig DeOxit - they even sell it at your local Radio Shack now.
USE SPARINGLY
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2104746







Green Lantern

I was talking about the 13 pin cable. Also, I have cleaned everything -- all cables, the gk-3's input -- I don't know how many times, but it's been a lot.

Also, I don't personally know anyone else that has a gk-3 pickup. I do have money to comfortably buy another one, so I'll probably wind up doing just that. If for whatever bizarre reason the problem persists despite that, which I don't expect it to, I can always sell it.

Mrchevy

Or buy another guitar to put it on so you don't have to go thru the trouble  ;D
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

underfeather


aliensporebomb

$39 for a 20 foot GK cable is very reasonable.  And Carvin usually sells quality stuff - they undoubtedly sell these cables to the owners of their guitars with 13-pin output.  Thanks for the link.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

FreeTime

#61
Use at your own risk

Last night I was ready to reach for contact cleaner again after more sporadic noise and string dropout. I always thought the noise was from that crappy grounding system Roland uses, but noticed all the ruckus was coming from the D string (I had the 55 set to 'string sensitivity' and saw some level congruent with the noise).

Weeks ago I'd bought a welding tip cleaner set, and thought I'd try it. I matched the pin-size to the appropriate size tool, a bit undersized to be on the safe side. Then I cut the end of the tool off  so only the serrated part would go into the jack. I looked up which hole was for the 4th string and carefully gave it a couple of strokes, nice and square, slowly and no further in than that cord-pin would go,wiping the tool between insertions.I only did the offending hole, I think it removes trace amounts of metal.

So far its working great, no more racket when I move the cord and the dropout is gone. If you're going to do this use common sense, don't jam the biggest tool in there and keep reaming till you see metal filings. The purpose is to remove oxidation/crud, not metal. I'm putting the tip-cleaner into my gig-bag.

gumtown

Good find !!
For something a little less abrasive, i use pencil type fibreglass cleaners on pins (like a retractable erasor tip),
I wonder if there s something in a pin/tip type shape for the socket pins.

The 'ol oxy-acetylene tip cleaners are something I haven't used for some time.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Radley

#63
Has anybody else with a Fender [Roland Ready] Strat developed a problem where the GK cable latch no longer holds the cable in the guitar?  I know I should always run the cable over my guitar strap but the damage has already been done?  I can just see this cable coming out in the middle of a Neil Diamond show, etc... :o

Elantric

#64
Have to get a new Gk13 cable with a working locking latch on the male DIN13 plug.

Or if its a fault with your female 13 pin DIN jack on your guitar  - time to replace it.

BTW - You found the principal reason for the non acceptance of the Roland 13 pin interface on many pro tours.


all details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3132.0



Remember the GK-13 interface is flawed IMHO - using only ONE Ground Connection for all Unbalanced Analog signals , +7V/-7V distributed Power Supply Reference, and Control Voltage reference, using Only the large round chrome circular Shell on the DIN 13 connector for the crucial ELECTRICAL GROUND  connection to the GK-3.


The "achilles heel" weakest link is the tiny mating electrical contact finger for the large round Shell  'Ground" connection on the female 13 pin jacks on your guitar, GK-3 or  VG-99, GR-55. If this important electrical connection is flaky - you will have problems just as you are currently experiencing ! (see Blue circle below)




Many other 13 pin users understand this mechanical fragility and limitation.

Its a result of Roland using "off the shelf" DIN 13 connectors - (typically used for connecting Kenwood  / Alpine car stereo remote CD changers)  - which seemed like a decent idea to Roland back in 1988

This video below explains more details on other 13 pin problems.




A few folks modify all their 13 pin gear to use pin #9 as a 2nd Ground connection, but that voids your warranty.

All Metal Chassis Mount Female 13 pin DIN jacks solve this Intermittent Ground issue due to a 360 degree all metal contact area for the Male plug.

Gumbo sells a version that accepts the Roland locking plugs here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8888.0

Radley

The male ends of my cable seem to be undamaged - it appears that the female jack on my guitar no longer has anything for the plug's metal finger to latch onto - is it actually possible that these plastic jacks don't have any metal reinforcement to strengthen the latch point?  If so, this truly is a poor design in need of a permanent fix!!!

Elantric

#66
QuoteI can just see this cable coming out in the middle of a Neil Diamond show, etc...

Yes - its a sad fragile design. - and the big reason my VG-99 stays home where it works great - under Controlled Conditions - not a live major tour.

Next time you run into Reeves Gabrels  - see if he will tell his Roland 13 pin on the Road horror stories 
http://www.guitar.com/articles/reeves-gabrels-scary-monsters-and-other-nasty-noises
Adrian Belew and many others have at various times resorted to removing all 13pin DIN connections and replacing with VGA HD15 type.

and adding separate Analog Ground and Digital Ground returns on the two additional pins

More here:
Re: GR-55 noise in Live Rigs
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5456.25

aliensporebomb

That's certainly simpler but using a VGA cable is still kind of unwieldy:
In a VGA cable you have to use thumbscrews to connect it and that's precious time lost onstage screwing and unscrewing to connect/disconnect.

It's almost like you need something like an ethernet cable that's commonly available, easy to connect and disconnect and are available in multiple lengths.   Only problem with ethernet: the plastic tabs break off all the time at my day gig.

You figure by now Roland would have come up with a BETTER solution.  With Fishman's wireless solution it's only a matter of time - Roland needs to step up to the plate and improve the GK connectivity?  Ethernet?  USB?  Thunderbolt? 

Lots of people gig with these all of the time but I'd say my 40+ gigs over the last few years I treat that cable and VG unit more carefully than I do the guitar in some ways!   
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

#68
In 2014 Roland with the GK13 pin connection is in a technology cul-de-sac  IMHO.

The infrastructure that works fine in the R&D Lab or home use really is a source of show stoppers for touring professionals. And these days Ive experienced legal issues for sidemen in major touring acts when high tech failures or other technical issues force concert cancellations and audience ticket refunds and rescheduling missed concerts. It points that the Roland 13 pin connection might "be too high risk" for mission critical situations.

Would you trust your Road crew  / Guitar Tech to be able to manage this issue for an international tour -with your rig mounted near a Drum Riser on a live stage?




Don't get me wrong - I love Roland VG/GR Systems for the sonic exploration possibilities they bring to modern Guitarists - but its important to know upfront the potential "land mines" that await with this marginal 13 pin connection.   

aliensporebomb

You have to admit: the standard quarter inch jack has stood the test of time for reliability, ease of availability, many lengths and styles. 

I know some international artists use large high tech guitar rigs and and have duplicates of everything on the road should something fail - a good example would be Alex Lifeson of Rush who has an complicated multi high-tech guitar, multi-amp, plus Mac laptop with effects plug-ins running and if that setup goes down he has a 100% duplicate of everything so he can switch instantly and be up and ready to rock. 

In my own case I've never had my VG go down nor the cable nor the foot pedal BUT my looper was the previous weak link.  I have corrected that and can use my old looper as a backup if I run into issues.  But, if I was gigging more frequently I'd have a plan B and a plan C and a plan D. 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

billbax

Ah the horrors of the 13-pin connector and socket.  It really all rides on this doesn't it!  A plastic housing with flimsy mating points and bad audio top to bottom.  What can we do?

Bill

Radley

#71
I may be spending some time trying to reinforce the latching mechanism in my VG Strat (Ooops - make that 'Roland Ready Strat') - there really needs to be some *metal* reinforcement at this crucial point!

DeRigueur

Quote from:  Radley on August 29, 2013, 08:31:06 PM
I may be spending some time trying to reinforce the latching mechanism in my VG Strat -

I assume you mean a Roland-ready Strat--unless you found a way to put a 13 pin jack on a VG strat.  If so, I'd like to have it done to mine.
Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

Elantric

On all cables I always feed the cable up then back through my strap as strain relief.

rolandvg99

Quote from:  Elantric on August 29, 2013, 09:00:44 PM
On all cables I always feed the cable up then back through my strap as strain relief.


Ditto. I also use a velcro cable tie for added security (less slippage).
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner