VG99 tracks perfect for modelling but not for midi out...why?

Started by gwp999, April 26, 2009, 12:05:03 PM

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gwp999

I have had my VG99 for about a year and have to say the tracking for the internal sounds is perfect with my Godin XTSA.

I finally tried the midi out port of the VG99 to drive a softsynth (Truepianoes, Reaktor,etc) via midi cable out to my PC.  The results were not so great!

My Axon AX 100 MKII can track with pretty good accuracy (95%+ estimate) which is acceptable for my DAW but the VG99 midi-out is probably 50% accurate - basically unusable for that purpose.

I was wondering why the VG99, with its perfect tracking for internal sounds from the signal coming in from my Godin, can't get the same results as the Axon when sending the midi out?

Gerry

germanicus

GWP999,

In regards to the 'internal sounds', the vg99 isnt actually tracking. There arent actually any stored internal sounds in the vg99 which are triggered from midi. What you mean by internal sounds (I believe, correct me if im wrong) is the COSM guitar modelling which is a complex series of algorithms that are manipulating the signal from your hex pickups in realtime.

The 99's midi conversion engine does however 'track' in the traditional sense, and it is therefore more susceptible to varying degrees of performance based off of numerous factors.

Axons are known for their superior performance over Roland in this area. They use a different method for determining the pitch of incoming notes. I have however found its possible to get good workable results with Rolands midi tracking, it requires a properly set up rig and tweaking. In my experience lowering the Gk string sensitivity settings helps a great deal (under 20 for each string), as well as making sure that "Bend Thin" is activated under Guitar to Midi > System >GTR TO MIDI.

My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

gwp999

I guess what I am trying to ask is that regardless of what or how the VG99 arrives at its output at the XLRs, it started with the input from the hex pickup of the Godin - it knew that an A was an A and that a D# was a D#...it was then able to select the proper "internal sound" that corresponds to the inputted note...I would think that an internal lookup table could output that same note as a midi event.  Furthermore, it knew not to play "ghost" notes internally, but on the midi-side, not so smart...I realize that there is more to a midi-event than just the basic note number but somehow, even that is lost in the translation...

Brent Flash

Welcome to the group gwp999!  :)

About the tracking, Guitar to MIDI works best with the GK-3 pickup. Anything else will need a lot of work to get it to play nice.

gwp999

Quote from: Brent Flash on April 26, 2009, 01:16:26 PM
Welcome to the group gwp999!  :)

Thanks Brent.

I also have 2 GK3 equipped guitars which I now will experiment with next week but my question still stands...why is the conversion so difficult with what appears to be a perfect input?

As an aside, I also have an Ibanez IMG2010 with the MC1 which tracks around 95% if careful...and this technology is 20 years old.

But I don't have anything that comes close to the VG99 in terms of tracking using the Internal Sounds...it is "virtually" perfect!

Brent Flash

Quote from: gwp999 on April 26, 2009, 01:31:02 PM
Thanks Brent.

I also have 2 GK3 equipped guitars which I now will experiment with next week but my question still stands...why is the conversion so difficult with what appears to be a perfect input?

As an aside, I also have an Ibanez IMG2010 with the MC1 which tracks around 95% if careful...and this technology is 20 years old.

But I don't have anything that comes close to the VG99 in terms of tracking using the Internal Sounds...it is "virtually" perfect!

Your welcome gwp999! What germanicus was trying to point out is the internal workings have nothing to do with MIDI. What you are hearing is being created from the sound of the pickup. That is a common misconception of how the VG-99 works.

BBach

You may already know this, but the pitchbend range of the VG-99 guitar to midi is set at +\- 12 semitones and cannot be changed. This means that the recieving synth must have its pitchbend range also set to +\-12 semitones to track pitch properly. The VG sends out a midi message to automaically change the range to the recieving synth when the vg patch is changed or when you toggle between mono or poly mode in the VG guitar to midi section. The problem is that a lot of soft synths and some hardware synths don't recognize the message so you have to delve into the recieving synths parameters to change the pitchbend range. I have a Yamaha G50, which uses the same technology as the Axon and I usually prefer the VG-99 for midi. I find that some of the chromatic modes work very well for some things and are unlike anything else on other Guitar to midi converters. I don't use a pick and set the VG to strum mode. I haven't used the vg with a piezo pickup and understand that there are adjustments required of the string pickup sensitivity to optimize performance. I find the +\- 12 semitone limitation quite usable for synths but a little warbly for sample based sounds.

gwp999

Quote from: BBach on April 26, 2009, 03:41:30 PM
Yamaha G50, which uses the same technology as the Axon

Although off topic, I also had a G50 and they are apples and oranges in results...

jvguitar

Quote from: gwp999 on April 26, 2009, 01:31:02 PM
Thanks Brent.

I also have 2 GK3 equipped guitars which I now will experiment with next week but my question still stands...why is the conversion so difficult with what appears to be a perfect input?
As an aside, I also have an Ibanez IMG2010 with the MC1 which tracks around 95% if careful...and this technology is 20 years old.
But I don't have anything that comes close to the VG99 in terms of tracking using the Internal Sounds...it is "virtually" perfect!

As far as I know, Roland and Axon use different techniques to detect pitch. I only have experience with the 99 and never use any other Roland pitch to MIDI converter so I can't talk much about it. I also use a Godin with piezo pickups along with the 99. After installing an RMC subsonic filter on it, the MIDI tracking improved a lot. Still, I can't get the accuracy of the Axon in , but it is playable. I hope Roland can improve the 99 on this area in the next firmware update, if any.

JV



feloniouspunk

#9
I use a Godin lgx-sa (baggs) and the VG-99 for guitar to midi.  After a bit of tweeking I have it working very well.  As Back has said you must adjust the pitchbend range on the synth you are triggering.  Also, I use the Strum option as well- always.  It seems to do the best job at filtering out unwanted noise which can cause unwanted triggers.  Admittedly, I have never used a Axiom so I can not make a comparison but I am very happy with what I have achieved with the VG-99.  I mostly use Reason 4 because of its multitimbral capabilities. 
Lots of Gear. :)

ear dirt

I am trying to trigger an external synth from the VG-99 but am having no success.

I am using the midi out of the VG-99 to the midi in of a Behringer Model D

Like wise I would like some walk through about setting up a different tuning.

Also what about drivers and software--is there any for the VG-99 that will run on a intell or M1 chip Mac?
Thank you

admin

Quote from: ear dirt on March 22, 2022, 11:32:01 AM
I am trying to trigger an external synth from the VG-99 but am having no success.

I am using the midi out of the VG-99 to the midi in of a Behringer Model D

Like wise I would like some walk through about setting up a different tuning.

Also what about drivers and software--is there any for the VG-99 that will run on a intell or M1 chip Mac?
Thank you

VG-99 Guitar to MIDI Tutorial
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2970.0

ear dirt

Thank you for the video link--I had watched it and thought i followed along but could not get it to work. My fault I suspect.

After reading comments and posts and doing some research it seems to me that there is still not a great accurate guitar to midi convertor. I have Godin and VG-99, Godin with Fishman--nice guitars but the midi conversion is just not where id like it to be.

I wonder if Roland will build upon the SY-300 audio to pitch, although in fact I dont think that is what is happening there. But could it?

It seems odd to me obviously the GK system works great in the VG-99 tunings/emulations if only there was great pitch to midi for realtime firing synths.

The only other thing for me is to expand upon guitar FX maybe use something like GigPerformer4 on a laptop for live.

My goal is to have the guitar part doubled up with interesting synth patches-not real instruments but synth sounds.


BROCKSTAR

Quote from: ear dirt on March 22, 2022, 12:27:54 PM
Thank you for the video link--I had watched it and thought i followed along but could not get it to work. My fault I suspect.

After reading comments and posts and doing some research it seems to me that there is still not a great accurate guitar to midi convertor. I have Godin and VG-99, Godin with Fishman--nice guitars but the midi conversion is just not where id like it to be.

I wonder if Roland will build upon the SY-300 audio to pitch, although in fact I dont think that is what is happening there. But could it?

It seems odd to me obviously the GK system works great in the VG-99 tunings/emulations if only there was great pitch to midi for realtime firing synths.

The only other thing for me is to expand upon guitar FX maybe use something like GigPerformer4 on a laptop for live.

My goal is to have the guitar part doubled up with interesting synth patches-not real instruments but synth sounds.



I have godin and vg-99 and do fine with it using 5-pin midi out to other things.

Also roland / boss did build upon the boss sy-300, it's called boss sy-1000. Although the normal input on sy-1000 is pretty much the same sound as the sy-300, the difference is when you use a gk with the sy-1000 and it becomes more organic / analog etc..

ear dirt

Thanks again for the info and contact.

Do you know if the SY-1000 does guitar to midi out---to synth midi In?

Is there software for the SY-1000 that works well and will be updated as we go forward?

If I can trigger via midi out with an SY-1000 Id get one.

I was going to get a SY-300 but it has not middi note out functionality only PC and CC etc.
And pair it with a Nureal Cortex for guitar sounds.

Any thought/ advice/ much appreciated.

If the SY-1000 will do what I want then Id sell my VG-99 it is mint BTW

Anyone know what the VG-99 sells for right now?

Many Many thanks in advance for any insight.

BROCKSTAR

Thanks again for the info and contact.

Do you know if the SY-1000 does guitar to midi out---to synth midi In?

YES IT DOES

Is there software for the SY-1000 that works well and will be updated as we go forward?

YES IT HAS A BOSS TONE STUDIO. IT WORKS GREAT ON SOME MACHINES AND SOME NOT SO GREAT, BUT GUMTOWN HAS A 3RD PARTY SY-1000 EDITOR YOU CAN USE INSTEAD TOO THAT MANY PREFER OVER THE BOSS ONE.

If I can trigger via midi out with an SY-1000 Id get one.

YUP YOU CAN!

I was going to get a SY-300 but it has not middi note out functionality only PC and CC etc.
And pair it with a Nureal Cortex for guitar sounds.

Any thought/ advice/ much appreciated.

If the SY-1000 will do what I want then Id sell my VG-99 it is mint BTW

Anyone know what the VG-99 sells for right now?

Many Many thanks in advance for any insight.


chrish

The SY-1000 does pitch to midi but about the same performance as VG99.

Note that not all external midi sound modules and synths perform the same when being feed midi especially through guitar pitch to MIDI.

The model D that you mention does fairly well with tracking but the moog mother 32 is better, where as  the moog slim phatty  is worse.

My best performing Pitch to midi is using a GR50 from the 90's with an Atlantis hex fx guitar that uses an Optical hex  pickup.

admin

To inderstand why VG-8, VG-88, VG-99 "VGuitar Systems"  track their internal sounds with ultra low latency ( Faster than MIDI)

Review the official Roland VGuitar FAQ page
http://roland.com/V-Guitar/about.html

kimyo

Quote from: ear dirt on March 22, 2022, 12:53:58 PMDo you know if the SY-1000 does guitar to midi out---to synth midi In?

member bluesbird found that the sy-1000 has a specific bug with its guitar to midi.  it is also important to disable the osc synth and shut down the boss tone studio for best results. 

other members have reported that the performance of the sy-1000 guitar to midi is inferior to earlier products. 

bluesbird's testing appears to show that this is not a technique or guitar setup/pickup issue. 

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 13, 2021, 06:21:49 PM
Some more interesting findings. Instead of using a custom setting for pitch to midi, I tried a patch with the recommended sensitive settings, not the lowered sensitivity settings I was using to prevent glitches.  What I found was that in chromatic mode once I hit a note on the low E string and stopped that note, a velocity event was being put out at a level of 10. It is always the same velocity value. No matter how hard you hit the note the incorrect note-on event that is produced has a velocity value of 10 as verified by MidiOx. Many times the incorrect note-on is a half-step below the struck note. It happens on all strings but more so on D, A, and E.

Also, the Play Feel settings has an effect on the value of low velocity glitch notes. When at a Play Feel setting of 2, the glitch notes occur at a velocity of 10, and when Play Feel setting 1, 3, or 4 is selected the low velocity notes occur at a value of 3. Turn it to NO DYNAMICS and the glitching is revealed fully and not hidden at low velocities.

BROCKSTAR

Quote from: kimyo on March 22, 2022, 05:04:29 PM
member bluesbird found that the sy-1000 has a specific bug with its guitar to midi.  it is also important to disable the osc synth and shut down the boss tone studio for best results. 

other members have reported that the performance of the sy-1000 guitar to midi is inferior to earlier products. 

bluesbird's testing appears to show that this is not a technique or guitar setup/pickup issue. 


Pretty sure that's only midi to computer and running soft synths, not 5-pin midi out to hardware synths.

admin

Quoteit is also important to disable and shut down the boss tone studio for best Guitar to MIDI results.

Thats true for ALL Roland/Boss units

When their editors are up and running, it presents a burden to the connected  GK Processor , which results in higher Guitar to MIDI latency

pasha811

VG99 5 pin MiDI to Roland JV1010 here. It works perfectly with some caveats.
Once you have established a working midi connection, so that VG99 plays your module via MIDI then you have to go through all the setup parameters to find what suites you, paying attention to the synth sound parameters you are triggering. Many VST (I use VG99 to trigger Zebra Synth) have own bend range parameters that affect your performance and glitches,
Personally I would make VG99 work with MIDI before shelling out cash on a SY1000, of course if the SY1000 is what you want go for it but not for MIDI alone.

My 2 cents
Paolo
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

ear dirt

Thank you everyone for your input and sage advice--much appreciated.

It seems to me Im better off keeping my VG-99 as what I want primarily is guitar to midi conversion.
Buying the SY-1000 would not benefit me in this regard i think. Especially as I am thinking Neural Cortex for amp and speaker emulation; if I decide to ditch the amp.

That means I need to get the VG-99 to work--which means I try again with the video link the Admin gave me.

If anyone can give me step by step instruction on this it would be appreciated.

I am still not understanding how to create an Alt tuning in the VG [i guess i need to study the manual harder]

Thanks again everyone!

BROCKSTAR

Quote from: ear dirt on March 23, 2022, 04:57:23 AM
Thank you everyone for your input and sage advice--much appreciated.

It seems to me Im better off keeping my VG-99 as what I want primarily is guitar to midi conversion.
Buying the SY-1000 would not benefit me in this regard i think. Especially as I am thinking Neural Cortex for amp and speaker emulation; if I decide to ditch the amp.

That means I need to get the VG-99 to work--which means I try again with the video link the Admin gave me.

If anyone can give me step by step instruction on this it would be appreciated.

I am still not understanding how to create an Alt tuning in the VG [i guess i need to study the manual harder]

Thanks again everyone!

I think the best advice is to try a sy-1000 and see if it's for you if that option is available. What works for some don't work for others and that is true for all devices. I have no issues with guitar to midi and going into a hardware synth. The most problems that people have is not playing clean enough and adapting themselves too it and 2nd is not setting it up right.

However if you do wish to stay with vg-99 then that is good too as it's a great unit too!
This link may help you :) also don't forget to search youtube for stuff too, it's a world of advice out there!

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/roland-vg-99-alternate-tunings/

and

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/VG_99_Q_A.pdf

ear dirt