Helix video

Started by Orren Merton, June 15, 2015, 05:27:08 PM

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thebrushwithin

Quote"COSP" (Composite Object Sound Profiling)

That one made me laugh! I can hear someone at a Roland marketing meeting bring that up, and then be promptly sent out for coffee. LOL! ;)

thebrushwithin

I'm wondering if Strymon has a flagship in the works. Those guys are top notch!

vablows

The Helix looks and sounds cool with all of it's options, but let's be honest, the tone is always #1 and it will no doubt deliver some useable clean tones but anything beyond that will still just not be up to par with Kemper or Axe and it is in the same price range.

Big red flag when they are not letting anyone hear any distorted tones still.

ZenSonic

#28
Quote from: thebrushwithin on June 19, 2015, 08:18:56 AM
I'm wondering if Strymon has a flagship in the works. Those guys are top notch!

I contacted a Strymon Rep recently asking the same question. Here is his not very telling responce.

" Hi :) We don't usually discuss what is or isn't in the works. We appreciate the feedback and listen to all of it. Thanks!!?"

My sense is that there is concern that offering a multi effects processor with all the bells and whistles could potentially cannibalize sales from their strong dedicated stomp box biz. Then again, they must know that not being able to easily change the sequence of effects in a chain of pedal board effects is an inherent limitation. Despite their stellar sounding boxes they could be left in the dust.


Deus02

Quote from: vablows on June 19, 2015, 09:09:57 AM
The Helix looks and sounds cool with all of it's options, but let's be honest, the tone is always #1 and it will no doubt deliver some useable clean tones but anything beyond that will still just not be up to par with Kemper or Axe and it is in the same price range.

Big red flag when they are not letting anyone hear any distorted tones still.

Technology is constantly changing.  Until I actually get to work with the unit itself using my playing style and tone preference, I will, until then, reserve judgement on whether or not it might be on par with the Axe and/or Kemper.

thebrushwithin

Personally, I believe Kemper cloned tube amps, so i no longer look for that. However, a killer multi effects unit will get my attention, as Kemper could do better in that area.

mbenigni

#31
Quoteanything beyond that will still just not be up to par with Kemper or Axe

You may - or may not - be right.  This is pure speculation.

I don't expect the Helix to sound as good as my Kemper.  That doesn't mean it won't sound great in its own right.  I've always found, when I put two modelers (profilers, etc.) side by side to A/B and decide which is the keeper, both will have tones I like that the other can't quite cop.  It's never as simple as X > Y (unless X or Y happens to be a complete dog.)

Quoteand it is in the same price range.

Except it really isn't.  If you want to talk price you have to compare apples to apples, which would be something like Helix vs. a KPA plus a Kemper Remote and expression pedal.  That puts you up in the $2600 ballpark, and I could still put together a list of things the Helix will do that the Kemper won't.

Yes, the Helix may arrive and sound like a toy and fall apart at the slightest provocation.  But until someone has actually tried one, can't we at least keep an open mind here?

mbenigni

QuoteMy sense is that there is concern that offering a multi effects processor with all the bells and whistles could potentially cannibalize sales from their strong dedicated stomp box biz. Then again, they must know that not being able to easily change the sequence of effects in a chain of pedal board effects is an inherent limitation. Despite their stellar sounding boxes they could be left in the dust.

Has Strymon ever done a large scale multi-effects unit, or amp/cab sims for that matter?  I always thought of them as more of a specialty company - e.g. discrete time-based effects units.

thebrushwithin

#33
What would have been really great, was if Kemper's Remote would have had an incredible effects engine, to compliment the Profiler. I would have paid a lot for that, but passed on the Remote, and do not regret it in the least. Money for the SY!

mbenigni

#34
Quote from: thebrushwithin on June 19, 2015, 10:38:58 AM
What would have been really. LOL, was if Kemper's Remote would have had an incredible effects engine, to compliment the Profiler. I would have paid a lot for that, but passed on the Remote, and do not regret it in the least. Money for the SY!

IMO the Kemper's effects belong in the Kemper - adding audio transmission to and from the Remote would have just complicated things.  Kemper just needs to get moving on some new effects for a forthcoming firmware.  The spring reverb omission alone has become a running joke.  They're really smart, talented guys and I know they'll deliver the goods eventually, but three years of waiting on feature requests has gotten to be too much for me.

What I do wish had been true of the Remote: that it had been a couple hundred bucks cheaper; that it had been manufactured in much larger numbers and with fewer defects; that it had been easier to order and acquire (i.e. distributed through their normal retail channels); that its buttons had been re-mappable; that it had MIDI output or that the KPA could be configured to send comprehensive MIDI message based on Remote events.

Saving your money for an SY was a good plan - that thing looks like a blast. Who knows, maybe you can find a creative way to use it as a footcontroller for the Kemper, too.


ZenSonic

Quote from: mbenigni on June 19, 2015, 10:21:38 AM
Has Strymon ever done a large scale multi-effects unit, or amp/cab sims for that matter?  I always thought of them as more of a specialty company - e.g. discrete time-based effects units.

The Mobius, a Modulation Multi-effects pedal of sorts is the closest thing I know of from Strymon that loosely fits this description.

ZenSonic

Utube vid "Line 6 Helix vs HD500 quick tone comparison"



DF400

I think it will take a while before someone produces tones that sound half decent. Although I have never personally liked the Line 6 distortion algorithms, then have always seemed to me to be geared towards a younger generation of high gain monsters and never nailed the nuances of Hendrix or SRV blues.

I thought these examples were less than what I would have expected - but it's hard to evaluate without digging in and finding the tone that works for me. I will say that I will not be in line to get one based on what I've heard. AxeFx by comparison, ...



Or this gem...


vtgearhead

Quote from: ZenSonic on June 22, 2015, 05:33:57 PM
Utube vid "Line 6 Helix vs HD500 quick tone comparison"


Very interesting.  Reinforces my ongoing dislike for the HD500 amp modeling.  Helix is nice and sweet and believable.  HD500 is like pushing ice-picks through ones eardrums.  Even with the latest HD model packs the HD500 just does not cut it for me.   Until and unless I can afford a Helix I'm sticking with my trusty Fender Mustang III.v2 for amp modeling.

Elantric

#39
I cant recall a Line 6 product that was stable and bug free until a year after release and 3 or 4 firmware updates


I find the resale value of most DSP gear drops like a rock ( Exceptions are Kemper ,Fractal Axe-FX)

The Helix will get interesting to me in the used channel in 18 months, when I expect them to be well under $1K

For example: my 2003 Vetta Combo ($1800 MSRP), I purchased a clean example on Ebay in early 2005 for $500, and got the large FBV Controller for $150.

My 1st 2003 Variax 500, I got in 2005 for $500.

But reading about the Helix on the Line-6 forums has allowed me to experience the "Line-6 fanboys" who think Line-6 can do no wrong and creates the best sounding DSP gear, and seem to spend more time being internet trolls "defending the brand" than playing their guitar.

In general, most Line 6 Guitar tones tend to sound "cold and spikey" ,

But we live in a world where most hate anything that says COSM on it,
(despite the fact the latest GT-100 Version 2, GT-001, GP-10 all hold their own against a Kemper) ,
while  Metal  heads have no problem to play through one of these:


Are there Roland / Boss "COSM" Fanboys? Not trying to say the need exists for such a thing, but i see all the gear we talk about as "tools"  - I don't love my Hammer more than my Soldering iron.

ZenSonic

#40
I think parent company Yamaha is going to infuse Line 6 with more substance and that the Helix will be the first hint of some good things to come. True, Helix has been reportedly in development years prior to Yamaha's acquisition but in creating a highly tested, refined, well executed product Yamaha can have an enormous effect and influence on what Helix is and becomes IMO. If they listen to their user's input they will hear "it's the tone stupid" ringing like a bell.

Orren Merton

Quote from: Elantric on June 26, 2015, 06:08:17 AM
I cant recall a Line 6 product that was stable and bug free until a year after release and 3 or 4 firmware updates

I agree. But to be fair, the launch version of Kemper software/firmware, most DAWs, and so on tend to have stability or bug issues too.

QuoteI find the resale value of most DSP gear drops like a rock ( Exceptions are Kemper ,Fractal Axe-FX)

You could go farther, and say the resale value of most gear mass produced in Asia, be it guitars, tube amps, synths, etc. drops precipitously. Or perhaps I should say, I can't think of any Asian mass produced music equipment that retains it's value, but they may be out there.

QuoteIn general, most Line 6 Guitar tones tend to sound "cold and spikey"

Great way to describe it! I would add that playing Line 6 models, the experience tends to be less dynamic. Even those distorted tones that clean up, tend not to clean up that much if you push it. That said, I thought that the Sweetwater demo of the Plexi showed off better dynamic clean-up than I would say I've ever experienced myself.

Speaking of ease of programming, BTW, I have it on good authority that the unit they received was empty of sounds, and they constructed the presets for their demos themselves on the spot, without cranking the manual, very quickly. I think that bodes well for it as a controller, first of all, and second of all, it could indicate that those who are willing to really learn it inside and out will be able to coax a lot out of it.

QuoteAre there Roland / Boss "COSM" Fanboys? Not trying to say the need exists for such a thing, but i see all the gear we talk about as "tools"  - I don't love my Hammer more than my Soldering iron.

First of all, I think there definitely are "Roland 13-pin" fanboys. It may not be loyalty just to Roland/COSM, but there are a lot of people in forumland and beyond who sing loud and proud about their 13-pin system and want to try every piece of 13-pin gear there is, if they need it or not, and will shoot down anyone who disagrees.

I think that the impulse to "fanboy" comes from three general impulses:

1) Gratitude, that one has found a piece of gear/technology that allows them to do what they want to do creatively

2) Protectionism, that they spent so much money or time or whatever buying something that they don't want to face the fact that it might have been a waste

3) Community, they enjoy participating in a group devoted to a natural interest.

So that's the difference between the hammer/soldering iron analogy and fanboying about Line 6, Apple, Kemper, Roland, etc. Nobody really feels protective of their hammer, or wants to build a community around a certain brand of soldering iron.

In a sense, isn't this forum a form of "fanboying" about this technology as a whole? I think we may be more sophisticated fanboys, since we're more grateful, protective, and building a community around the concept of virtual guitars and it's potential, rather than any one specific brand. Which makes sense, because regardless of our individual musical achievements to date, I think that we here are a bit older, more diverse in our interests, etc. But we get just as protective of our investments (see the SY-300 "13-pin vs 1/4 wars"), and yet we are a community because we love that these sometimes crazy niche items help us find joy and fulfillment.

My point is that I tend to be pretty forgiving of fanboys. Not trolling by anyone, that is despicable. And I think that virtual guitar does have its fanboys, even if Roland/BOSS alone may not.

Orren

sixeight

So far the VG99 has been the most complex and divers multiprocessor I have ever owned. The Helix with its four paths and 35 simultanious fx does beat the VG99 in some areas in the area of specifications. Whether it actually can produce more complex tones is still to be discovered. I guess not, because the strength of the Vg99 is in the dual virtual cosm instruments. A combination of the two would be very very powerful.

But in the end it is sound that matters. But with the ability to upload impulse responses to the Helix, there possibilities are pretty, much endless.

mbenigni

#43
QuoteFor example: my 2003 Vetta Combo ($1800 MSRP), I purchased a clean example on Ebay in early 2005 for $500

I paid significantly more for my Vetta head (now upgraded with v2 f/w and a VDI card) and I don't think I could give that amp away.  I never warmed up to the amp, either.  It's a shame, because the effects etc. were very versatile, but the thing had no feel.  Absolutely no amp sag or compression whatsoever.  Give me a Flextone over a Vetta any day.

Now the Vetta sits in the basement, where it lends occasional utility value.  It's got a generous enough power amp (come to think of it, maybe that was part of the problem) that I can dial something up whenever a bass player visits without an amp of his own.

gumtown

I have had no previous desire to own Line 6 gear,
Mostly stuck with Roland/Boss gear because it provides what has been specified and it works reliably.
But the Helix does have that initial wow factor with the looks, I quite like the scribble strips which name each pedal, with assignable pedals, I can never remember what the different function was for each patch.
But I guess the proof will be in the sound, at 3 x the price of the low end gear, you would hope for 3 x the performance.

Quote from: Elantric on June 26, 2015, 06:08:17 AM
But reading about the Helix on the Line-6 forums has allowed me to expereince the "Line-6 fanboys" who think Line-6 can do no wrong and creates the best sounding DSP gear, and seem to spend more time being internet trolls "defending the brand" than playing their guitar.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

slooky

Quote from: Elantric on June 26, 2015, 06:08:17 AM


But reading about the Helix on the Line-6 forums has allowed me to experience the "Line-6 fanboys" who think Line-6 can do no wrong and creates the best sounding DSP gear, and seem to spend more time being internet trolls "defending the brand" than playing their guitar.



So true Elantric! One guy on there is forever defending line 6. He thinks he is the only guy on the line 6 forums that knows how to play the guitar,a genuine "Rock Star", I listened to him and was not impressed, even told him that, but he didn't get it. He thought I was talking about his bashing Boss/Roland gear. lol

Elantric

#46
After spending time on a few other guitar forums,  It makes me realize what a great community we have cultivated here.

I suspect a few folks buy that new Roland/Boss guitar processor, and google for more info, join VGuitarforums and assume we run an unconditional love fest for Roland  / Boss COSM gear - only to discover we are quick to point out limitations, workarounds, or rant about what might have been possible  "if only" (insert missing feature here)   

Since starting VGuitarforums  nearly 8 years ago, Ive made many friends around the world, many Ive never actually met in person

Bulk of this journey is documented in my 696 Pages worth of posts here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=4

I summed things up in my very 1st post right here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6.msg10#msg10

Most of my posts are boring redundant "read the VG/GR FAQ", scattered with occasional humor, while some posts reflect me having a bad hair day -  totally cranky ( I'm human), mixed with a few pearls of shared knowledge that I know I had a hard time learning, (and  harder time conveying in words with my limited vocabulary).
Just documenting my perspective of our shared collective Guitar journey and passing along my experiences.  As always, our goal is a bit of a spiritual one for me : elevating any guitarist's musical spectrum by mastering the available tools we have to work with for more effective non verbal communication through music.   Thats my quest. 

whippinpost91850

#47
Steve, very well stated! And yet with such a limited vocabulary :). I peruse a few other forums and it always gives me great perspective on what a great group that has been created here. Thanks Paul

ps: just sent a little something to help keep the lights on

Paresh

It's a fantastic forum. I'm a musician but don't have the technological training & understanding that many guys have here. It's a little intimidating & I hate to ask "stupid" questions, but my understanding of electronics is just bits and pieces, especially with the jump to the digital age. I sincerely appreciate everyone's help & input.
paresh

polaris20

#49
Quote from: vablows on June 19, 2015, 09:09:57 AM
The Helix looks and sounds cool with all of it's options, but let's be honest, the tone is always #1 and it will no doubt deliver some useable clean tones but anything beyond that will still just not be up to par with Kemper or Axe and it is in the same price range.

Big red flag when they are not letting anyone hear any distorted tones still.

I don't think it's a big red flag at all. The unit is not released yet. Once it is, we'll hear everything, and even better, we can try it ourselves.

Honestly, I spent quite a bit of time with an AxeFX II, and was so highly underwhelmed I went running back to my tube amps. It's just not $2000 better than a POD HD, and certainly not $2000 better than an iPad with BIAS FX. All IMHO, of course. It's cool that people dig it, I just was personally underwhelmed. Will I be underwhelmed with the Helix? Perhaps. But what was missing from the HD series has been addressed (user IR's), so it's promising to me.