How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products

Started by Elantric, March 13, 2015, 06:53:11 PM

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admin

Quote from: baatkarlo on January 23, 2021, 07:32:18 AM

Is TriplePlay a MIDI VST fronted by SSP device with hexpup?

no idea what you mean
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSP

but Tripleplay hardware is a hex PU feeding a guitar mounted DSP that does the guitar to MIDI conversion and then feeds its own proprietary wireless protocal to its own wireless USB receiver dongle - presenting to the host computer as a USB MIDI Class Compliant Controller - so it works with IOS/Android/ Linux/ Win/ Mac  / Raspberry Pi USB Host ports 

The lower cost Tripleplay Connect skips the wireless block.

And all will rely on a third party Synth

Add the Fishman FC-1  - which is a embedded computer with USB host port to 5 pin MIDI out to drive hardware Synths

If you read older FC-1 threads - many users and salesmen were confused thinking the FC-1 was itself a Synth and could make sounds or load Soft Synths for use with the Tripleplay  - which is Not the case. 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13447.0

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=312.0

admin


gumtown

Bad enough calling it "midi pickup" (@5:30)
but I don't get what the guy is rattling on about the Fender guitar "chip insert that always gets lost" (@5:55),
then rants off topic about his favorite childhood Transformer toy and comparing that to "midi guitar".
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

aliensporebomb

I couldn't even watch for too long.  Gads.   They did say they were dumb though so...
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

philjynx

Just barely managed 2 minutes. EMG "i don't want a battery in my guitar". Tosser.

BROCKSTAR

I just yelled at them on that video haha "IT'S NOT FREAKING MIDI! Geez, years later and people still calling a hexaphonic pickup "MIDI" which by the way is SIX MINI HUMBUCKERS..... NOT MIDI..................... Also it's still around... Seeing that BOSS just released a SY-1000 unit in early 2020 that uses the HEXAPHONIC pickup... NOT MIDI........"

admin

Even principal design engineers at rival companies still think its a 13 pin MIDI CABLE

Because some are old enough to instantly develop a short attention span when you explain your desire  for a  hex separate string pickup,  as they have flashbacks of the sluggish 1985 Casio and Roland GM-70  and GR-700 guitar to MIDI SYSTEM
The typical guitarists reaction to a GK-3 remains, its like bringing garlic and silver hammers and silver  spikes to a vampire convention

And forget about trying to change someone's pre conceived  cultural knowledge and persuade them they are wrong, when even Adrian Belew and Robert Fripp still incorrectly identify and refer to their GK-3 hex PU  as a MIDI Pickup and GK 13 pin MIDI cable in interviews and gear run down videos for past 40 years

The damage can not be undone

chrish


admin

Quote from: chrish on August 30, 2021, 09:25:43 PM
YouTube channels that should go away.  ;D

Who are those guys?

They run an independent Guitar store Casino Guitars  in Asheville , North Carolina ,(home of Moog Instruments)  and guy on right with beard is former Gibson Nashville assembler

Their YouTube channel gained numbers during the Henry J Gibson Bankruptcy 3 years ago

plexified


Forget about "Tards" doing 'tard' things. The Fact that you can do micro pitch shift on each string on a 'non midi' pick up guitar and platform should wake you up. If not, you did not start from the begining. Did you know Billy Gibbons and Robinsnest studio used basic time parameters and tuning parameters to get that sound ?

Did it matter during the nogo double track that was not suppose to happen that they double tracked ? Maybe they shifted time and tuning. And they did.

They did NOT have HEX / Tweak. And now we do. I Cannot emphasize Enough the Impact of this concept alone. "You Start from the beginning and you morph and adapt hex string".

I have better micro pitch control in COSM than I do with an Eventide Timeline for $500.

Hex Control.

Why turn your back on it ? Because (Cliff)  some are already over the max Q personal application. Farm it out and develop a gameplan as normal aerospace would.

I don't think anything was destroyed as much as incompetance was exploited. We deal with an ever diminishing marketplace ( human capacity ). Bleached grains, flouride, bromines, glypnosate, etc. . . micro nanoparticulates and more ! Your toast!

But while we are here and operating as expected. . . Use the tools man.

If  another ' Idiocracy', ' Brain Damaged ' Player is "That Removed " from actual cognizance, well thats their work to do.

Hex Control IS a GOAL.

HEX CONTROL IS  A GOAL.

And to frame it properly. . .

Micro Pitch Control over each string alone is enough to  hear what Robinhood Studios has to say about Billy Gibbons and ZZ top.

OR. . . Listen to Van Halen Push Comes Shove. Total micro pitch shift influence. I have the same amp and its unreal. I also have a bunch of BOSS/Roland gear with the capacity to micro pitch shift and in HEX. . . Its very special. Its there. So. . .

WAKE UP!!!

OH, BTW, Leave off the 'sauce' the 'greace' the Lukather 'shine', roll with the RAW tone to begin with here. BUILD IT, do you here me ? And they will come. . . 

gumtown

I think if Roland want to promote new users to "hex processing" technology, they are going to have to re-design the GK3 & 13 pin cable, and come up with a totally new word for it, far removed from Midi.
A bit like the change away from the term "COSM"


"HEXACOIL" bridge pickups from Roland !!

revamp the GK-3 body with snap on styled covers, and supply both a LP and Strat style knob for it.
A/D converters under the pickup coils, and send a composite digital signal + power down a T/S jack plug and regular looking guitar cable.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

plexified


Bartolini had a hex pickup humbucker and pan output on the Kramer Ripley in 1985. It was stunning. And still is.

Demanding tech that is already here is almost a comic act.

Why abandon COSM now when we can fine tune micro pitch shift for each string ?

We are back to " each string" again here.

Nobody wants to go there because of cost.

Its not hard to figure this stuff out.

For me to be raw, or real is where we drive off the edge of this gracious board.

The tech has been here for decades. You, earthling don't get free energy because we (they) can't put a meter on it. A Pierce Arrow at 50 MPH on a generator that was perpetual was not a good Petrolium move if you wanted to govern the energy and practice eugenics.

Its  tech we demand thats 50 yrs past. No excuse.  Get Beevis in here  he will tell you, us. If not, we will have to go to Ben Rich. And then its OVER.

plexified


To Separate the gear and the users and the tech and the $$$, I would suggest we all dive in. The first deal is that who is selling what and where. I did a quick drop and the billion club is healthy. The billion club is literally who is making billions in the music field. If you don't know who or wher how do you expect to figure it out ?

I put my $.02 in the mix so, marketing failed. We had chances and failed. I'm late to the party, last two years or three doing research in advance. People blew it They had the chance. Now its a matter of does my GR-55 Patch sound better than my FM-3 or so on. The answer is YES. Any patch, the next patch sounds better. Does it give me better control ? We will see. Its the same fight with 33% of your Guitar Improvement is Spent on Learning " The Next Best Thing " . Can you get that back ? No.

Twiddle away, its fun. And  Don't let me jack you with my fake and intentional statistic. I wanted to prod your thought. HOW IS YOUR TIME SPENT ?

I think we have it AMAZINGLY GOOD. So . . .

Cry. . .

Moan . . .

Pour Your Gurts Out . . .

We need you more than ever. . .

If you can't find music,

Make Music. . .

If You Can't Find Places To Make Music. . .

Throw Your Bed Out The  Window, Please Don't Hurt Others. . . .

Buddy Guy Is  A Good Start.

Or. . . .

You can always channel the . . .

Blues. .

One TIme . . .

A group thought about BB, ZZ, King and said that BB was taken and ZZ King ws at the Top.

ZZ Top.

So now, Go Play some " Brown Sugga " .

Call me Tuesday about 3Pm.

I should be ready for a pizza on the bbq about then, 7 minutes for a pizza.

gumtown

I think you have lost me there, a bit over my head for this time of night (on my side of the world).  ???
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

philjynx

The grim thing about this is that we've all directed more traffic to RetardLand™

chrish

Quote from: philjynx on August 31, 2021, 01:06:51 AM
The grim thing about this is that we've all directed more traffic to RetardLand™
yea, we don't use that word any longer.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/why-you-shouldnt-use-the-r-word/2011/06/06/AGISc3nH_story.html

admin

Quote from: billbax on September 13, 2021, 05:45:17 PM
I ain't saying a thing...the latest GR-55 re-amping movie :D


http://www.separate-strings.co.uk/
Sadly many see words " Reamp with your GR-55" , then auto react with "that's well known to be impossible"

Sadly 80% of the world still thinks the GK 13 interface is 100% MIDI -and can not comprehend how any GK13 break out cables could function, as they remain firmly tied to their misbelief system that GK 13 is a MIDI Cable

Anytime I repost Bilbax Separate String Videos, there is always the errant reply from someone who insists this will never work.

admin

Quote from: Elantric on March 13, 2015, 06:53:11 PM







How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products

There is a common misconception in the Music Gear world

http://line6.com/support/topic/9778-me-too-goodbye-line-6-hello-boss-gp-10/

The above is flat wrong !

yet 80% of Guitarists around the globe believe it to be true

The Roland GK-3 hex divided pickup provides 6  analog Output signals ( one per string) and a 7th for the normal Pickups and feed these ANALOG signals through the GK 13 cable to the connected "GK 13 pin PROCESSOR" .
The Roland VGuitar 13pin GK Processors   (as well as competing DSP Guitar Modeling systems from Antares, and Line-6 Variax) do not employ a Guitar to MIDI conversion function for their principal sound . Instead think of the VGuitar system as six separate DSP Modeling signal paths -   The Strings are the oscillators. and it functions quite similar to the Line-6 Variax signal processing flow - ( Guitar PU for each String> six A/D's ( one per string) >DSP >D/A) and latency is similar to Variax (under 2 milliseconds for each string) and substantially much faster than any Guitar to MIDI system or Guitar to PCM system.

The biggest difference between Roland VG Series and Line 6 Variax is the DSP is inside the Guitar on the Line-6 system - both allow real time DSP generated Alternate Tunings, Guitar Modeling and on Roland VG systems and Antares ATG-1 - Pedal Steel multi-string pitch  bends  - no MIDI involved !

Click here and see how many folks (and many new VGuitarForums members) STILL call the GK cable a "13 pin MIDI Cable"
http://bit.ly/YaDgM7

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg56700#msg56700


The posts above reveal the common misunderstanding of Roland 13pin GK Modeling gear

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.msg50135#msg50135

Roland US's lack of Dealer education on the simple matter of

"How should marketing describe the Roland GK 13 Pin DIN Cable on the sales order sheet?

- all helped to slow the sales of VG-8/VG-88/VG-99 /GR-55/GP-10 Roland Hex COSM Modelers


Test: Go to most any Guitar Center and you will find the Roland 13 pin cables are typically never stocked in the Guitar department, instead they are stocked over in the Keyboard department - on the same rack with 5pin MIDI Cables.


Even the Planet Waves GK 13 is incorrectly labeled as a "MIDI Cable" !


This misinformation Fake News damaged the "Roland GK" brand)



When Roland dealers continue today to call the GK13 DIN cable a "MIDI cable", THIS KILLs their sales of Boss / Roland GK Processors.

Today even casual guitar players  know Guitar to MIDI has a battle with latency and mis-triggered Notes that make you look like a fool at the live gig.

Many Newbies and younger guitarists , even the sales staff at music stores hear the word MIDI Guitar , and  think:
https://www.midi.org/articles/does-midi-have-an-image-problem

and never look at the near zero Latency VG-8/VG-88/VG-99 /GR-55/GP-10/ SY-1000  Roland Hex GK Processor /  Modeler systems because they think:

"Roland GK gear uses that 13pin MIDI cable, I don't want to use gear with sluggish Guitar to MIDI latency delays!"

Roland US Marketing Failed since they continue to not deal with the general public's mis informed idea of what a Roland GK 13 Pin interface actually Is and what a GK-3 actually does, and how its an ANALOG CONNECTION .




if you examine the details of the Roland  / RMC / Graph-Tech Ghost Hex PU Circuit which drives the Roland GK 13 pin cable - , it becomes apparent MIDI data messages have never existed in ANY 13 pin interface from Roland or Any other manufacturer at anytime.


Essentially the GK-3 is a Divided Hexaphonic PU feeding a  multi-channel analog Buffer/Line driver
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Putting_the_Hex_On_the_Postmodern_Pickups


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7893.msg56178#msg56178

Only Roland Japan Corporate Global site tries to clear up the confusion

http://roland.com/V-Guitar/about.html









---

https://www.roland.com/us/support/knowledge_base/201922959/
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GUITAR SYNTHESIZERS AND THE VG-8
Back to Results

Tags: gi-10, gr-1, vg-8, vg-88, gr-09
The VG-8 / VG-88 V-Guitar is not a guitar synthesizer like the GR-09, GR-1 or
GR-30/33, or a Guitar-to-MIDI Converter like the GI-10. In the GR-Series and
the GI-10, the signal from the GK-2A pickup (which is analogous to a standard
pickup signal for each string) is converted to a pitch which is then available
to trigger a sound, either internally (GR-09, GR-1, GR-30) or through MIDI.
This makes these units ideal for sequencing and playing realistic sounds like
pianos, organs or drums.

On the VG-8 / VG-88,GP-10 the signal from the GK-2A / GK-3 hex Pickup is modified in realtime into an
entirely new sound which allows all of your picking and playing techniques to
be preserved.
The VG-8/ VG-88 does not transmit MIDI note numbers, nor does it
act as a MIDI sound module. Although the VG-8 / VG-88 has the ability to modify
the guitar sound into unique sounds (like a synthesizer would), there is
absolutely none of the tracking delay normally associated with guitar synths
because the sound of the guitar is modified in real time. The VG-8 / VG-88 is
unsurpassed in creating a multitude of authentic guitar tones which would
previously only be attainable by purchasing a truckload of different guitars,
amps and speakers.


Roland COSM Reference Library
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0


Tory Slusher demonstrating the Boss GP-10, and explains the GK 13 cable interface

coincident

Just wanted to say... I found this thread, like, a week ago, by accident trying to find some stuff about the gt1000 core. I'd heard of multichannel pickups, and of the Roland/boss devices... but had no idea that the latter was an instance of the former.

I'd apparently been thinking of GK pickups as guitar-to-midi (in the oh sounds cool by oh no the latency would never work for me sort of way) for however long I've been aware of their existence.


Read through this and a bunch of other threads, learned the Truth, and returned my gt1000core in favor of an SY-1000 (I cannot imagine why the fact that it does normal amp modeling AND amazing synth stuff isn't very well marketed), thinking that it'd be a great modeler with some interesting extra features.

The SY-1000 showed up yesterday along with the GK3... but, uh, no cable until today. Played with the SY in the meantime... pretty neat... dynamic synths are interesting... not earth shattering... EXCEPT...

I got the GK3 mounted today and hooked up... and, like... WOW. I can't believe these units exist (hyperbole, maybe, but still)... and that they aren't, like, everywhere. I'm only through the first few banks of presets and feel like my horizons are already expanding. The variety of sounds and options is staggering.


It is absolutely mind blowing that the whole GK system was (and is) so poorly marketed that I never would have guessed it was anything but MIDI without this forum...


Anyway. Thanks to you and the rest of the forum for spreading the good word.


chrish

In the old days there was a VG8 on display at a music store along with a TV monitor set up playing a Roland VG8 tape to explained very well the VG8 was not midi but a new DSP guitar modeling technology.

The store clerk in the guitar section at this popular music store in Spokane, Wa. even knew what a VG8 was.

When I purchased the VG8 on closeout, the store gave me the tape which I still have.

Today we have youtube full of misinformation and not so clever reviews.

Enjoy your SY1000, its a monster machine.

One way to explore the synth patches is to turn off two instrument blocks and listen to the individual instrument block. Sometimes that's all you need.

Quote from: coincident on April 23, 2022, 09:50:03 PM
Just wanted to say... I found this thread, like, a week ago, by accident trying to find some stuff about the gt1000 core. I'd heard of multichannel pickups, and of the Roland/boss devices... but had no idea that the latter was an instance of the former.

I'd apparently been thinking of GK pickups as guitar-to-midi (in the oh sounds cool by oh no the latency would never work for me sort of way) for however long I've been aware of their existence.


Read through this and a bunch of other threads, learned the Truth, and returned my gt1000core in favor of an SY-1000 (I cannot imagine why the fact that it does normal amp modeling AND amazing synth stuff isn't very well marketed), thinking that it'd be a great modeler with some interesting extra features.

The SY-1000 showed up yesterday along with the GK3... but, uh, no cable until today. Played with the SY in the meantime... pretty neat... dynamic synths are interesting... not earth shattering... EXCEPT...

I got the GK3 mounted today and hooked up... and, like... WOW. I can't believe these units exist (hyperbole, maybe, but still)... and that they aren't, like, everywhere. I'm only through the first few banks of presets and feel like my horizons are already expanding. The variety of sounds and options is staggering.


It is absolutely mind blowing that the whole GK system was (and is) so poorly marketed that I never would have guessed it was anything but MIDI without this forum...


Anyway. Thanks to you and the rest of the forum for spreading the good word.

GuitarBuilder

"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

bosetuno

Quote from: coincident on April 23, 2022, 09:50:03 PM
Just wanted to say... I found this thread, like, a week ago, by accident trying to find some stuff about the gt1000 core. I'd heard of multichannel pickups, and of the Roland/boss devices... but had no idea that the latter was an instance of the former.

I'd apparently been thinking of GK pickups as guitar-to-midi (in the oh sounds cool by oh no the latency would never work for me sort of way) for however long I've been aware of their existence.


Read through this and a bunch of other threads, learned the Truth, and returned my gt1000core in favor of an SY-1000 (I cannot imagine why the fact that it does normal amp modeling AND amazing synth stuff isn't very well marketed), thinking that it'd be a great modeler with some interesting extra features.

The SY-1000 showed up yesterday along with the GK3... but, uh, no cable until today. Played with the SY in the meantime... pretty neat... dynamic synths are interesting... not earth shattering... EXCEPT...

I got the GK3 mounted today and hooked up... and, like... WOW. I can't believe these units exist (hyperbole, maybe, but still)... and that they aren't, like, everywhere. I'm only through the first few banks of presets and feel like my horizons are already expanding. The variety of sounds and options is staggering.


It is absolutely mind blowing that the whole GK system was (and is) so poorly marketed that I never would have guessed it was anything but MIDI without this forum...


Anyway. Thanks to you and the rest of the forum for spreading the good word.

I always thought the SY1000 would sell more as the powerfull amp+fx modeller it actualy is with extra synth sounds. A fair percentage of normal guitar users would then be temped to get a GK pickup to unleash the synth on it.

Brak(E)man

Here's another one that should know better but.....
Synth pickup , 13 pin midi cable again..

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch