FTP - Fishman Tripleplay Modes & Midi Implementation

Started by shawnb, February 16, 2015, 02:51:55 PM

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Mrelectric

Thanks for your comments.
I'm not sure what "reconfiguration" or MIDI commands might be needed to get the FTP to reliably drive the GR1. I am using the FTP app and MIDIOX to try to work that out. That was part of my OP question. Your original post is really helpful as a starting point .
My experimentation has been very on and off so haven't made much progress. I am trying to be systematic but there are probably some basic errors.

I think you will be right about the Ghost; it looks to be a simple pass through unit like the Kenton.

Thanks for the note about the BomeBox confirming its flexibility.
If I can discover what the GR1 needs from the FTP and what the FTP cannot output, it looks like it could be what is needed in a real-time PC-less rig.

admin

Quote from: Mrelectric on March 07, 2020, 09:44:16 AM
Thanks for your comments.
I'm not sure what "reconfiguration" or MIDI commands might be needed to get the FTP to reliably drive the GR1. I am using the FTP app and MIDIOX to try to work that out. That was part of my OP question. Your original post is really helpful as a starting point .
My experimentation has been very on and off so haven't made much progress. I am trying to be systematic but there are probably some basic errors.

I think you will be right about the Ghost; it looks to be a simple pass through unit like the Kenton.

Thanks for the note about the BomeBox confirming its flexibility.
If I can discover what the GR1 needs from the FTP and what the FTP cannot output, it looks like it could be what is needed in a real-time PC-less rig.

Read the Roland GR-1 OWNERS  Manual with the MIDI Implementation in the rear
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/GR-1_OM.pdf

Hint  - Download the PDF and many PDF Reader apps  ( Adobe Acrobat Standard)
have "OCR (Optical Character Recognition) Translation" tool - which aids in allowing text searches within the old image scanned Roland manual PDF files.


PAGE  6-12 " Using the GR-1 as an Expansion Module for an External MIDI Device 

PAGE 6-22 - LOCAL Control =OFF MODE

PAGE 9-29 Complete GR-1 MIDI Implementation


And Every GR-1 owner needs the

Roland GR-1 Service Manual
http://synfo.nl/servicemanuals/Roland/ROLAND_GR-1_SERVICE_NOTES.pdf

ALSO the internal GR-1 memory relies on a CR-2032 Coin cell Battery which Must be renewed every 10 years - else many data error problems

http://llamamusic.com/gr1/gr-1_battery_replacement.html


Mrelectric

Thanks. I replaced the battery when I changed the leaky electrolytic caps and a few opamps plus updating FW to 1.04; the latest I could get hold of.

The FTP works okay on the multi-timbre modes with fixed tones but I'm more interested in the main Performance flexibility, which is usually driven from the GK2a.
I'm not sure what MIDI functions I need to allow this in mono mode on the 6 channels, set up as 1-6 or 11-16.  Turning GR Local On or Off doesn't seem to make any difference.
A deeper read of the GR's MIDI Implementation is needed I think, with the FTP.

Phorton

FWIW, I wanted to add a link to my github repository where I have uncovered the basic command/reply architecture between the dongle/controller and the FTP editor, and elucidated the C++ data structure and commands to get and send patches to the thing.

https://github.com/phorton1/projects-teensyExpression/blob/master/ftp/readme.md

and

https://github.com/phorton1/projects-teensyExpression/blob/master/ftp/readme.md

- Patrick

shawnb

I think your two links above are identical?

Great rant!

QuoteHow I long for the engineering ethics of the 1980's, when you would buy a device, say a Yamaha FB04 or Kawaii Synthesizer, or maybe a TR-505 drum machine, and included in the documentation would be a more or less complete specification of how the device interacted with MIDI, including detailed specs about midi syses messages.

Those days are long gone.

Nowadays when you buy a device, most likely you will not be able to find out anything about it's midi sysex implementation, although it has one.  ...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

cartedoe

Hi, I'm using the TriplePlay Connect (firmware v1.45) in Basic Mode, and trying to switch into Mono by sending a CC#126 value on channel 1.  It doesn't seem to respond.

The MIDI hex data I'm sending is:

  B0 7e 06

Should this work with the TriplePlay Connect?

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: cartedoe on October 28, 2023, 10:02:40 AMHi, I'm using the TriplePlay Connect (firmware v1.45) in Basic Mode, and trying to switch into Mono by sending a CC#126 value on channel 1.  It doesn't seem to respond.

The MIDI hex data I'm sending is:

  B0 7e 06

Should this work with the TriplePlay Connect?
No, this will not work. That command is intended to be sent to a synth, not a controller. And the functionality that you want is not even technically "Mono Mode", even though that is the terminology we use - we use that term because Roland uses it so it became common parlance. There is no simple MIDI command to tell a MIDI guitar controller to switch from sending all strings on the same channel to sending each string on a separate channel.
In Basic Mode the TriplePlay controller (currently) always sends all strings on a single MIDI channel mode (aka Poly Mode). So to get what you want, you need to make one or more "hardware patches" using the Mac/Win TriplePlay Host software, which get saved to the controller, then quit the TriplePlay software, then boot the controller up in Hardware Mode by holding down the "Up" button on power-up. I would be happy to try to answer any questions you might have about this.

cartedoe

Oh, thank you. Now I have edited the hardware patches and it is working.

Strangely I don't have to hold the 'up' button when powering on.

I am using Linux.  Could this make the difference?  Does the device automatically enter hardware mode on a Linux computer?

admin_shawnb

#33
Hmmm...

The Fishman TriplePlay Wireless, the original model, in the past, honored several standard midi inbound signals.  Those are doc'd in the original chart above, and discussed with others in the first page of this thread. 

Used to work...  I just did a quick test, and the FTP no longer appears to respond to the standard CCs for Mono (CC126), Poly (CC127). 

So yes, it appears that the only way to do this now is via hardware mode patches at this point.

I'm surprised they removed that capability.  It's possible they removed CC66 support, too... 

Note:  Midi Mode 4 - Omni Off/Mono, is what guitar synth users have long referred to as "Mono Mode".  "Midi Mode 4 Omni Off/Mono" is a mouthful. 
https://audiointerfacing.com/what-are-midi-modes/#midi-modes-summary

It's not specific to Roland.

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: admin_shawnb on October 30, 2023, 02:25:10 PMHmmm...

The Fishman TriplePlay Wireless, the original model, in the past, honored several standard midi inbound signals.  Those are doc'd in the original chart above, and discussed with others in the first page of this thread. 

Used to work...  I just did a quick test, and the FTP no longer appears to respond to the standard CCs for Mono (CC126), Poly (CC127). 

So yes, it appears that the only way to do this now is via hardware mode patches at this point.

I'm surprised they removed that capability.  It's possible they removed CC66 support, too... 

Note:  Midi Mode 4 - Omni Off/Mono, is what guitar synth users have long referred to as "Mono Mode".  "Midi Mode 4 Omni Off/Mono" is a mouthful. 
https://audiointerfacing.com/what-are-midi-modes/#midi-modes-summary

It's not specific to Roland.

I'm fairly certain that when in "basic mode", the TriplePlay controller has historically never supported multi-channel operation. We are considering changing that in the near future.
 
I am also fairly certain that we have not removed any functionality over the last 7 years or so that I have been involved. Just prior to my involvement, Fishman removed *global* mono/poly functionality and substituted *per-patch* mono/poly. Maybe that is what is going on; I need to look at it more closely.

One thing to consider is that when the TriplePlay controller is set to so-called Mono Mode, i.e. each string on a different channel, the receiving synth can be in a polyphonic mode or a monophonic mode. As I stated above, the mode you discuss "Midi Mode 4 - Omni Off/Mono" is a synthesizer receive mode, but the TriplePlay "mono mode" (different MIDI channel per string), which is a transmitter setting, works equally well with synths set to Omni Off/Mono and Omni Off/Poly assuming that these synths support a multi-channel receive mode.

What I meant about Roland is, we would have called our "mono" transmit mode something more clear like "multi-channel mode" if not for Roland. When a Roland guitar controller is set to "mono mode" presumably it sends a "Midi Mode 4 - Omni Off/Mono" message to the connected synth(s), but in our case, the connected synth could be in a polyphonic mode.

I would be happy to further elaborate on this subject if it still seems unclear or incorrect.

Elantric

Review once known working MIDI IMPLEMENTATION for Fishman Tripleplay compiled  here 2015
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13653.0

admin_shawnb

Part of the issue is that those features were undocumented at that time.

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: Elantric on October 31, 2023, 12:58:35 PMReview once known working MIDI IMPLEMENTATION for Fishman Tripleplay compiled  here 2015
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13653.0
Thanks for the link. I am about to go on vacation but I will try to look into these issues/questions next week.