GK-13 - Explain what it is ( VGuitar vs MIDI Guitar)

Started by ricob, March 24, 2018, 10:58:54 AM

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ricob


Im no electronics expert, and some terms I just take time To grasp.

In fact, all I want To know is If Either The Roland VG-EX8 or The RMC Poly Drive X input board would suit fine for instance Komplete 10, Kontact or any processor. A friend of mine is planning To build up one of The circuits and wish To know which one works better.

Sorry I have not made my point clear.

admin

#1
Quote from:  ricob on March 24, 2018, 10:58:54 AM
"
Im no electronics expert, and some terms I just take time To grasp.

In fact, all I want To know is If Either The Roland VG-EX8 or The RMC Poly Drive X input board would suit fine for instance Komplete 10, Kontact or any processor. A friend of mine is planning To build up one of The circuits and wish To know which one works better.

Sorry I have not made my point clear.

The Roland VG-8 / VG-8EX / VG-88 VGuitar processors will be useless  - none of those perform Guitar to MIDI conversion  -( they work with their internal signal processing only  -but  no MIDI Note on / off messages are transmitted 

The GK 13 pin cable is NOT a MIDI cable ( its a low impedance  analog signal path for each string
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14088.0


For running NI Komplete Synths / Samples for a MIDI Guitar system ,
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/

I recommend a used Macbook Pro 8 GB Ram minimum



Then you need a "Guitar to MIDI " conversion unit

many today are skipping a hardware guitar to MIDi interface and instead use

Jam Origin MIDI Guitar software
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7530.0


but will need a good audio interface
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=193.0




The following Guitar to MIDI conversion units are available today , and these support playing chords and string bends 

Fishman Tripleplay  - provides its own hex mag PU and a wireless connection to a USB dongle that connects direcctly to a PC/Mac or iPad+ USB Camera adapter
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.0


if you use a "GK 13 pin guitar, then you can use the following:

Boss GP-10
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11796.0


Roland GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137


I see you are from Brazil

link below is  the VGuitarForums Portuguese area
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=113.0


ricob

#2
Quote from:  admsustainiac on March 24, 2018, 11:16:52 AM
The Roland VG-8 / VG-8EX / VG-88 will be useless  - none of those perform Guitar to MIDI conversion  -( they work with their internal signal processing only  -but  no MIDI Note on / off messages are transmitted 

The GK 13 pin cable is NOT a MIDI cable ( its a low impedance  analog signal path for each string
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14088.0


For running Komplete , I recommend a used Macbook Pro 8 GB Ram minimum



Then you need a "Guitar to MIDI " conversion unit

many today are skipping a hardware guitar to MIDi interface and instead use

Jam Origin MIDI Guitar software
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7530.0


but will need a good audio interface
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=193.0




The following Guitar to MIDI conversion units are available today , and these support playing chords and string bends 

Fishman Tripleplay
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.0


Boss GP-10
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11796.0


Roland GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137


I see you are from Brazil

see the VGuitarForums Portuguese area
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=113.0


Thanks again man. Ill read then carefully.

I couldnt help noticing your RMC's Poly Drive X on your strat. So The "guitar To midi " conversion units above are better than your RMC's?

admin

#3
Quote from:  ricob on March 24, 2018, 11:22:55 AM

Thanks again man. Ill read then carefully.

I couldnt help noticing your RMC's Poly Drive X on your strat. So The "guitar To midi " conversion units above are better than your RMC's?



Actually - above is a internal RMC Polydrive -X board from my Godin xtSA

Its Not a MIDI conversion adapter - its simply a line driver buffer board with High Pass (HP) subsonic filtering for the 6 RMC piezo saddles

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.msg52669#msg52669



English speaking folks in US ( and Canada) are lazy - they call the GK-13 cable a "MIDI cable" - and many guitarists refer to their Roland Gk-3, RMC Polydrive, Graphtech Ghost MIDI-Hexpander  as "MIDI Adapters -
http://www.graphtech.com/products/brands/ghost/ghost-preamp-kits

This is wrong - they lie

details

How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the "Roland GK" V-Guitar brand
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14088.0



ricob

Quote from:  admsustainiac on March 24, 2018, 11:37:07 AM


Actually - above is a internal RMC Polydrive -X board from my Godin xtSA

Its Not a MIDI conversion adapter - its simply a line driver buffer board with Hgh Pass (HP)  filtering for the 6 RMC piezo saddles

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.msg52669#msg52669



English speaking folks in US ( and Canada) are lazy - they call the GK-13 cable a "MIDI cable" - and many guitarists refer to their Roland Gk-3, RMC Polydrive, Graphtech Ghost MIDI-Hexpander  as "MIDI Adapters -
http://www.graphtech.com/products/brands/ghost/ghost-preamp-kits

This is wrong - they lie

details

How a "13pin MIDI Cable" destroyed the "Roland GK" V-Guitar brand
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14088.0




O...k... Im totally lost lol. Ill sleep on The thread this weekend.

So you said you have a Hex guitar with processing, right. So far so good.
However, lets pick The same example, your Poly Drive X system.

What is it and what is aimed at?

(I kinda thought of it as a system that drains The piezo (hex guitar PU) signals, passes through a circuit  (a preamp circuit, I suppose, and your Poly Drive is a preamp/ad's converter, right?) that amplifies and also can model the same signals (into an acoustic/electric fashion only), a 13 pin adapter and finally goes right into a processing/synth unit or even a software, such as those I mentioned before - and in these units The signal is finally converted into MIDI. Is this correct? Im still reading The thread)

admin

#5
Quote from:  ricob on March 24, 2018, 12:03:16 PM


O...k... Im totally lost lol. Ill sleep on The thread this weekend.

So you said you have a Hex guitar with processing, right. So far so good.
However, lets pick The same example, your Poly Drive X board.

What is it and what is aimed at?

(I kinda thought of it as a system that drains out The piezo signals, passes through a circuit that amplifies and models the same signals, a 13 pin adapter and finally goes right into a processing/synth unit or even a software, such as those I mentioned before. Is this correct? Im still reading The thread)

RMC- Polydrive-X board is 100% analog signal buffers   - it has no CPU, and No MIDI , and complies with the signals of  the Roland GK Output



Like this Roland GK-2A Mag Hex PU preamp


- used by Roland GK-2A, GK-3 Mag Hex PU interfaces, and Fender Roland Ready  / GC-1  Strat.   and many Godins "SA" ( Synth Access) guitars
http://www.godinguitars.com/godingman.htm


A guitar with a GK 13 pin output ( i.e a Godin guitar with a RMC- Polydrive-X board )  was intended to connect to a separate  "GK Guitar to MIDI processor" box  ( GR-1, GR-50, GR-20/GR-30/GR-33/GR-55)
http://www.godinguitars.com/godingman.htm

But it can also connect to a   "GK V-Guitar DSP processor" - most do not perform Guitar to MIDI ( VG-8. VG-8EX, VG-88)

while some "GK V-Guitar DSP processors" also do Guitar to MIDI too ( VG-99, GP-10, SY-1000)

http://roland.com/V-Guitar/about.html





kknyc

Hi Guys, Im new to forum and to hex pickups in general. I recently bought a bass with OEM Ghost pickup installed. I would like to/have always wanted to expand the sound pallet with either a midi converter or gtr synth, though im not interested in 'gtr modeling' as much as layering sounds (strings/synths/other). Im playing a 5 string bass but would like to incorporate polyphonic patches, apply different patches to different registers, pitch shift, etc.

Could someone experienced with midi converters, gtr synths, software solutions (Jamorigin), please explain the practical limitations/advantages for choosing one option over the other?

I don't really understand possible limitations of a midi converter vs a gtr synth. Like using...
AxonAX100mkII vs a Roland GR55 or
Roland GI-10/20 + a synth module or
should I forget the hardware and just go the jamorigin route?
or even just plugin to a RolandSY series pedal?

Ideally I'd like to bring a single "sound unit" to plug into live, thats also (if needed) M1 Mac friendly (patch editing etc).

Which units offer built in sounds (strings, horns, synths, etc)? Currently the Axon 'seems' like a good choice. Are there any others units I should be looking at?



gumtown

Quote from: kknyc on August 21, 2023, 07:02:58 PMHi Guys, Im new to forum and to hex pickups in general. I recently bought a bass with OEM Ghost pickup installed. I would like to/have always wanted to expand the sound pallet with either a midi converter or gtr synth, though im not interested in 'gtr modeling' as much as layering sounds (strings/synths/other). Im playing a 5 string bass but would like to incorporate polyphonic patches, apply different patches to different registers, pitch shift, etc.

Could someone experienced with midi converters, gtr synths, software solutions (Jamorigin), please explain the practical limitations/advantages for choosing one option over the other?

I don't really understand possible limitations of a midi converter vs a gtr synth. Like using...
AxonAX100mkII vs a Roland GR55 or
Roland GI-10/20 + a synth module or
should I forget the hardware and just go the jamorigin route?
or even just plugin to a RolandSY series pedal?

Ideally I'd like to bring a single "sound unit" to plug into live, thats also (if needed) M1 Mac friendly (patch editing etc).

Which units offer built in sounds (strings, horns, synths, etc)? Currently the Axon 'seems' like a good choice. Are there any others units I should be looking at?




The GK technology breaks down into two groups,
1: pitch to midi
2: HRM modeling

Pitch to midi and guitar synth such as GM-800, GR-33 and such are PCM sample based synths which require pitch analysis to be done to register a note.
the lower the note frequency, the longer the pitch detection times are, same goes for non-GK pitch to midi too, like the Jam Origin.
With Bass the low E can take a significant amount of time to measure and register a note, based on the theory a note requires two string cycles to measure.
Pitch to midi based synth is not very nice on Bass unless all you require are slow pads.

HRM modeling in units such as V-Bass, VG-8, GP-10, VG-88, VG-99, VB-99, and SY-1000 uses the string pitch as the basis of the synth oscillator and the sound does not suffer the latency issues of pitch to midi, producing an near instantaneous tone. The synth tone is more akin to analog synths of the 70's & 80's, the HRM system also does instrument models of guitars, basses, violin, cello, acoustic and nylon string guitars/basses.

One exception is the GR-55 which does both.

In your case I would recommend either the SY-1000, or the GR-55.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Tosh

I have a GI-20 connected to an XV-5050, and I have an SY-1000. I play bass; one with Lightwave optical pickups, and the other with RMC Piezo pickups.

I don't reckon you'd be thrilled with the PTM (pitch to MIDI) performance of any available system the latencies will be very frustrating in a live performance.

Get the SY-1000, and set aside some time to learn how to program it.

kknyc

Thanks for info guys. ive spent the last 3hrs reading thru VGuitars forums and online reviews, Sweetwater etc. On the surface, the GP-10, GR-55, SY-1000 seem to fit my use-case (sound unit on the floor into amp).

As for 'bass', I play alot of solo arrangements and was looking to blend/add a 'synth voice' for the upper registers (approx E2 and above) while having the lower register 'dry' (approx E2 and below) bass tone. Will any of these three be able to do this?

I'm kinda leaning to the GP-10 to get my bearings, then upgrade to a SY-1000. But that old saying, "Buy once cry once" is ringing in my ears. ;)

Again sorry for the basic(?) questions, im flying blind when it comes to trying to maximize this new GHOST hex capability. Thanks

Elantric

#10
Quote from: kknyc on August 21, 2023, 07:02:58 PMHi Guys, Im new to forum and to hex pickups in general. I recently bought a bass with OEM Ghost pickup installed. . . . . .  I'm kinda leaning to the GP-10 to get my bearings, then upgrade to a SY-1000.

GP-10 does not support BASS instruments or GK-3B

kknyc

#11
Quote from: Elantric on August 21, 2023, 11:23:44 PMGP-10 does not support BASS instruments or GK-3B

Thanks for the heads up!
thats a shame, I really like the small footprint.
With your experience, love to hear your take on other two... GR-55 and SY-1000

Ok so im guessing by "GK-3B" that includes the Graphtech Ghost Piezo Hexpander output (by bass), and RMC piezo pickups? Is the reason, due to the low freqs? Would it work if im mainly using it in the guitar register (E2 and above)?




Elantric

#12
GP-10 is incompatible with any Bass Instrument

Only Bass compatabile 13 pin processors are

GI-20, GR-20, VBASS, VB-99, GR-55, SY-1000, GKC-AD> GM-800

Search their specifications for "BASS MODE"

these units employ a tuned band pass filter per string designed to minimize out of active pitch range  false triggers.

On the GK Guitar Processors in Guitar Mode when using Bass, At best you may experience  tracking when playing Bass above  12th fret. Some will track a baritone tuned guitar, (above 9th fret on Bass - but not all.


kknyc

thanks. last night I was perusing the SY-1000 manual and saw the hex settings, and details. though that low register issue might not bother me as I'm only interested in triggering sounds above E2 82hz. But as you pointed out, still a limitation to be aware of.

–its looking more and more like a battle between the GR-55 and SY-1000 for me, unfortunately my wallet is 'the ump'  ;D

Elantric

Quote from: kknyc on August 22, 2023, 08:24:16 AMthanks. last night I was perusing the SY-1000 manual and saw the hex settings, and details. though that low register issue might not bother me as I'm only interested in triggering sounds above E2 82hz. But as you pointed out, still a limitation to be aware of.

–its looking more and more like a battle between the GR-55 and SY-1000 for me, unfortunately my wallet is 'the ump'  ;D

SY-1000 or GR55 have dedicated Bass Modes

shannonrichards

Both the GR-55 and SY-1000 offer some fantastic possibilities, so it ultimately depends on what specific features and capabilities align best with your musical goals.