VG-99 - Why is COSM guitar mix volume at default 25 and related questions

Started by M2, August 10, 2009, 11:33:24 PM

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M2

Hi there,

Thanks to owning GT-3 and GT-6 I have a good understanding of how to mix the various volumes, etc. in the amp models, fx
s volumes, EQ volumes, etc to maximize my tones. But my questions for the group are as follows:

1. Why do the presets have factory default of 25 for the COSM guitar? Why not 50 or 100? Is 25 a sweet spot for managing the signal level as it goes into the COSM amp or just an arbitrary setting that has no inherent sonic value to managing the patch itself?

2. Since this default value of 25 equates to how hot the pickup is going into the  COSM preamp or whatever is next in the chain - does increasing the volume of the COSM PU only make the patch sound louder, or does increasing the volume of the COSM PU from 25 to a higher volume affect the tone of the patch as well - as in making the pickup hotter - does it add distortion, change the overtone structure of the COSM pickup., etc? 

3. Similar question for  using just my NORMAL PU. IF in a patch I was running the COSM PU at zero and wanted best tone from my regular pickups, what is best value or sweet spot form NORMAL PU volume. Should it be 25 like the default COSM value? Is the sweet spot 50? Or will only 100 give me my truest normal pickup sound. If 25 or 50 or a number less than 100 equals my pickup at best volume what does increasing my normal pickup beyond that number, say 50, do? Does it like in question #2, make my pickup hotter than normal to set it over 50 (pretending this is optimal #)? Would it make my pickup "hotter" (more distorted) at 100 versus 50.


Maybe the above questions mean I am missing something, but I am trying to understand the math beyond the COSM PU  and normal PU range of 0 to 100. Since this is the pickup volumes are at the beginning of the signal patch, it seems that what value one sets (factory at 25) would be significant to how the AMP models, stomp boxes, etc. respond to the volume values of the pickups. For example:

1. do stomp box distortion models in the VG99 respond differently in terms of tone, distortion and technique if the COSM pickup is at 25 versus say 75? Or do these volume ranges simply mean just volume?

In summary I am trying to determine if COSM PU volumes affect the sonics/musicality of the patches, or or just a simple front end volume control. When one turns the volume of a normal pickup down, using the volume pot of an electric guitar, the lack of signal cause the amp tone to often lose not just volume, but the high end and the amount of distortion - turning down the volume pot of a normal guitar "cleans up" the guitar signal. Wondering if the COSM PU volume range does the same thing, or just makes things louder and softer - used either to make a patch louder if you have run out of volume options later in the chain or to blend with normal pickups. In the GT-3 and GT-6 for example a setting of 50 in a stomp box model makes the stomp signal the same volume as when the stomp box is not engaged. A value of more than 50 in the stomp box made the stomp box guitar signal louder then if the stompbox was not engaged, a value of less than 50 made the stomp box signal quieter than the original signal. So in that sense "50" in the GT-6 and GT-3 stombox distortions was the "sweet" spot or midpoint of the signal. And how hot the stomp box is set makes the amp models in the GT-6 respond differently.

So looking to see if the numerical range of the COSM PU volume and the regular pickup volume effects more than just volume - if the settings cause the amp and other succeeding tone modules respond differently.

Thanks for your help on this newbie question.

FYI, I own a VHT Valvulator, an amazing unity tube device that changes the impedance of your guitar signal BEFORE it hits the amp. It emulates the impedance of your signal after it enters the amp. IT enables you to literally run 200 feet of cable and 20 stomp boxes without hum and tone suckage because it is the first thing you plug into, your stomp boxes run after that, etc. I use the Valvulator before my GT-6, and have noticed in definitely improves the sound of my GT-6 patchess significantly. (The Valvulator also has power outs for stomp box f/x to receive conditioned current and best of all, has a second out, which one can run into a second amp - or better yet, used as a clean signal for recording,l so you can use a re- amp box to run that signal back through amps for tone tweaking and re-recording your signal through different amp(s) or through software amp emulations to build up a composite guitar track. The Valvulator does more for my tone than any other box. Even if just running a cable into a tube amp.

My question is if I want to use my Valvulator in front of the VG-99 for the same purpose of improving my sounds and eliminating noise - can I run a second guitar cable from my normal out of my guitar through the valvulator into the VG-99 and still be able to control the pickup balance between COSM PU and normal PU? Would this normal guitar signal going into the front guitar input of the VG-99 "override" the normal PU guitar signal in side my 13-pin cable?

Best regards and thanks for your help,

M2
-------------------

M2 Musik Pub

Brent Flash

Welcome to the group M2!  :) The answer to most of your questions would be let your ears make the decision. I have been surprised many times on what will make a tone difference. Like for example one parameter that can get you a wide variety of tones is the delay function in the mix section when using both Channel A and B. It is almost like getting all sort of pickup selections (single, hum, series, parallel) but it goes on and on. Almost too many!
Quote from: M2 on August 10, 2009, 11:33:24 PM
Hi there,

Thanks to owning GT-3 and GT-6 I have a good understanding of how to mix the various volumes, etc. in the amp models, fx
s volumes, EQ volumes, etc to maximize my tones. But my questions for the group are as follows:

1. Why do the presets have factory default of 25 for the COSM guitar? Why not 50 or 100? Is 25 a sweet spot for managing the signal level as it goes into the COSM amp or just an arbitrary setting that has no inherent sonic value to managing the patch itself?
I am not sure if anyone really knows the answer to this other than the programmers themselves. I would guess it is to give you a wide birth for all the different pickups people are going to try out there, and 25 ended up good for the GK pickup. Also I might mention that if you are not careful you will overdrive the input if you have you Gk string sensitivities too high. I am finding that 10 actually gives me a better feel and response on some patches than 30 does but the synth models definitely need hot sensitivities to get the best out of them.
Quote from: M2 on August 10, 2009, 11:33:24 PM
2. Since this default value of 25 equates to how hot the pickup is going into the  COSM preamp or whatever is next in the chain - does increasing the volume of the COSM PU only make the patch sound louder, or does increasing the volume of the COSM PU from 25 to a higher volume affect the tone of the patch as well - as in making the pickup hotter - does it add distortion, change the overtone structure of the COSM pickup., etc? 
Remember we are in the digital world now and things are not going to work like they do with real gear. I wish they would! This one you will just have to use your ears. I can't give you any tips other than I don't get much difference on my system except maybe with the synth models, but maybe someone else has something they have found.
Quote from: M2 on August 10, 2009, 11:33:24 PM
3. Similar question for  using just my NORMAL PU. IF in a patch I was running the COSM PU at zero and wanted best tone from my regular pickups, what is best value or sweet spot form NORMAL PU volume. Should it be 25 like the default COSM value? Is the sweet spot 50? Or will only 100 give me my truest normal pickup sound. If 25 or 50 or a number less than 100 equals my pickup at best volume what does increasing my normal pickup beyond that number, say 50, do? Does it like in question #2, make my pickup hotter than normal to set it over 50 (pretending this is optimal #)? Would it make my pickup "hotter" (more distorted) at 100 versus 50.

Maybe the above questions mean I am missing something, but I am trying to understand the math beyond the COSM PU  and normal PU range of 0 to 100. Since this is the pickup volumes are at the beginning of the signal patch, it seems that what value one sets (factory at 25) would be significant to how the AMP models, stomp boxes, etc. respond to the volume values of the pickups. For example:

1. do stomp box distortion models in the VG99 respond differently in terms of tone, distortion and technique if the COSM pickup is at 25 versus say 75? Or do these volume ranges simply mean just volume?
What I have found is every little tweak you do here or there will do something whether it be feel or tone. This box is really best used by trial and error and your ears, IMHO.
Quote from: M2 on August 10, 2009, 11:33:24 PM
In summary I am trying to determine if COSM PU volumes affect the sonics/musicality of the patches, or or just a simple front end volume control. When one turns the volume of a normal pickup down, using the volume pot of an electric guitar, the lack of signal cause the amp tone to often lose not just volume, but the high end and the amount of distortion - turning down the volume pot of a normal guitar "cleans up" the guitar signal. Wondering if the COSM PU volume range does the same thing, or just makes things louder and softer - used either to make a patch louder if you have run out of volume options later in the chain or to blend with normal pickups. In the GT-3 and GT-6 for example a setting of 50 in a stomp box model makes the stomp signal the same volume as when the stomp box is not engaged. A value of more than 50 in the stomp box made the stomp box guitar signal louder then if the stompbox was not engaged, a value of less than 50 made the stomp box signal quieter than the original signal. So in that sense "50" in the GT-6 and GT-3 stombox distortions was the "sweet" spot or midpoint of the signal. And how hot the stomp box is set makes the amp models in the GT-6 respond differently.

So looking to see if the numerical range of the COSM PU volume and the regular pickup volume effects more than just volume - if the settings cause the amp and other succeeding tone modules respond differently.
I wish this box did respond more to the volume knob on your guitar so you could roll it back and clean it up and give it a little more and add some crunch to it but in my experience, this is one of the harder things to achieve. Yes, it will change the tone but not in the way you would expect it to, so again, the ear is your best bet.
Quote from: M2 on August 10, 2009, 11:33:24 PM
Thanks for your help on this newbie question.

FYI, I own a VHT Valvulator, an amazing unity tube device that changes the impedance of your guitar signal BEFORE it hits the amp. It emulates the impedance of your signal after it enters the amp. IT enables you to literally run 200 feet of cable and 20 stomp boxes without hum and tone suckage because it is the first thing you plug into, your stomp boxes run after that, etc. I use the Valvulator before my GT-6, and have noticed in definitely improves the sound of my GT-6 patchess significantly. (The Valvulator also has power outs for stomp box f/x to receive conditioned current and best of all, has a second out, which one can run into a second amp - or better yet, used as a clean signal for recording,l so you can use a re- amp box to run that signal back through amps for tone tweaking and re-recording your signal through different amp(s) or through software amp emulations to build up a composite guitar track. The Valvulator does more for my tone than any other box. Even if just running a cable into a tube amp.

My question is if I want to use my Valvulator in front of the VG-99 for the same purpose of improving my sounds and eliminating noise - can I run a second guitar cable from my normal out of my guitar through the valvulator into the VG-99 and still be able to control the pickup balance between COSM PU and normal PU? Would this normal guitar signal going into the front guitar input of the VG-99 "override" the normal PU guitar signal in side my 13-pin cable?
That should work fine, all you can do is try it and see.

M2

Thank you very much sir for your kind and patient reply. I do understand that intensive tweaking yields great results as the amp models and f/x are similar to the GT-6 and I have spent long hours improving patches in that little beast. As I surmised, I will just have to fool around, enjoy many late nights, and see what happens

Regards,

M2
-------------------

M2 Musik Pub

shannonrichards

Quote from: M2 on August 10, 2009, 11:33:24 PMHi there,

Thanks to owning GT-3 and GT-6 I have a good understanding of how to mix the various volumes, etc. in the amp models, fx
s volumes, EQ volumes, etc to maximize my tones. But my questions for the group are as follows:

1. Why do the presets have factory default of 25 for the COSM guitar? Why not 50 or 100? Is 25 a sweet spot for managing the signal level as it goes into the COSM amp or just an arbitrary setting that has no inherent sonic value to managing the patch itself?

2. Since this default value of 25 equates to how hot the pickup is going into the  COSM preamp or whatever is next in the chain - does increasing the volume of the COSM PU only make the patch sound louder, or does increasing the volume of the COSM PU from 25 to a higher volume affect the tone of the patch as well - as in making the pickup hotter - does it add distortion, change the overtone structure of the COSM pickup., etc? 

3. Similar question for  using just my NORMAL PU. IF in a patch I was running the COSM PU at zero and wanted best tone from my regular pickups, what is best value or sweet spot form NORMAL PU volume. Should it be 25 like the default COSM value? Is the sweet spot 50? Or will only 100 give me my truest normal pickup sound. If 25 or 50 or a number less than 100 equals my pickup at best volume what does increasing my normal pickup beyond that number, say 50, do? Does it like in question #2, make my pickup hotter than normal to set it over 50 (pretending this is optimal #)? Would it make my pickup "hotter" (more distorted) at 100 versus 50.


Maybe the above questions mean I am missing something, but I am trying to understand the math beyond the COSM PU  and normal PU range of 0 to 100. Since this is the pickup volumes are at the beginning of the signal patch, it seems that what value one sets (factory at 25) would be significant to how the AMP models, stomp boxes, etc. respond to the volume values of the pickups. For example:

1. do stomp box distortion models in the VG99 respond differently in terms of tone, distortion and technique if the COSM pickup is at 25 versus say 75? Or do these volume ranges simply mean just volume?

In summary I am trying to determine if COSM PU volumes affect the sonics/musicality of the patches, or or just a simple front end volume control. When one turns the volume of a normal pickup down, using the volume pot of an electric guitar, the lack of signal cause the amp tone to often lose not just volume, but the high end and the amount of distortion - turning down the volume pot of a normal guitar "cleans up" the guitar signal. Wondering if the COSM PU volume range does the same thing, or just makes things louder and softer - used either to make a patch louder if you have run out of volume options later in the chain or to blend with normal pickups. In the GT-3 and GT-6 for example a setting of 50 in a stomp box model makes the stomp signal the same volume as when the stomp box is not engaged. A value of more than 50 in the stomp box made the stomp box guitar signal louder then if the stompbox was not engaged, a value of less than 50 made the stomp box signal quieter than the original signal. So in that sense "50" in the GT-6 and GT-3 stombox distortions was the "sweet" spot or midpoint of the signal. And how hot the stomp box is set makes the amp models in the GT-6 respond differently.

So looking to see if the numerical range of the COSM PU volume and the regular pickup volume effects more than just volume - if the settings cause the amp and other succeeding tone modules respond differently.

Thanks for your help on this newbie question.

FYI, I own a VHT Valvulator, an amazing unity tube device that changes the impedance of your guitar signal BEFORE it hits the amp. It emulates the impedance of your signal after it enters the amp. IT enables you to literally run 200 feet of cable and 20 stomp boxes without hum and tone suckage because it is the first thing you plug into, your stomp boxes run after that, etc. I use the Valvulator before my GT-6, and have noticed in definitely improves the sound of my GT-6 patchess significantly. (The Valvulator also has power outs for stomp box f/x to receive conditioned current and best of all, has a second out, which one can run into a second amp - or better yet, used as a clean signal for recording,l so you can use a re- amp box to run that signal back through amps for tone tweaking and re-recording your signal through different amp(s) or through software amp emulations to build up a composite guitar track. The Valvulator does more for my tone than any other box. Even if just running a cable into a tube amp.

My question is if I want to use my Valvulator in front of the VG-99 for the same purpose of improving my sounds and eliminating noise - can I run a second guitar cable from my normal out of my guitar through the valvulator into the VG-99 and still be able to control the pickup balance between COSM PU and normal PU? Would this normal guitar signal going into the front guitar input of the VG-99 "override" the normal PU guitar signal in side my 13-pin cable?

Best regards and thanks for your help,

M2

ou're delving into the nuances of COSM PU volume and its impact on sonics. It's an interesting exploration. Much like a regular pickup, it seems the COSM PU volume might have a broader impact, affecting not only volume but potentially tone and distortion characteristics.

IMH1234

In general, gain staging in digital synthesis (which is essentially what COSM is doing) is as important as in the analogue world.

These devices have a significant number of gain blocks and limited bit depth - essentially the digital headroom available before clipping. compared to modern devices running 24bit or 32bit floating point is is pretty easy to overload them. Given that many of the gain blocks are part of emulations it is reasonable to assume that they have an impact on sound and the operation of these effects - for example hitting an amp model with a higher signal level should generate more preamp saturation than a lower gain signal. So there may well be an advantage for certain tones to hit the front end of different processing with a hot signal and then pad it down at the output stage or convesely to boost more at the output. For this reason, carful gain staging at each step of the signal chain is likely to be important and dependant on what exactly is being used.

Whether messing with the impedance will have a positive effect is something you will need to test - I think that plugging directly into the 1/4 inch guitar input on the VG99 defeats the guitar signal from the GK pickup but would need to look at the manual to confirm that - and may be different on other units