Gp10 midi out note duration

Started by Bit Flicker, July 31, 2016, 04:35:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bit Flicker

I've just invested in a gp10  ;D.
I started on a gr55 but wanted the more 'guitar live performance' from the gp10.
I am running vst synths on a mac in MainStage so having the updated midi functionality of the gp10 I was looking forward to more playability than I had with the gr55.
I haven't really noticed a significant change in tracking between the two as I had the settings dialled in to what I was very happy with on the gr55  but the issue with the gp10 is the duration of a single note not lasting as long as Id expect before the note off message is sent.

On open strings it lasts longer than you'd get from a note held on the 12th fret as you'd expect but even with everything set to maximise the note duration I am getting only 2 - 3 seconds before the note off message is sent.
When compared to the onboard synth that lasts as long as the string vibrates, the midi out is extremely short in comparison. I know they are generated by different methods but it just doesn't seem right to me. ???
It is the same guitar, cable, MainStage rig and vst as I had running with the gr55 but now the midi out notes are too short to be playable.
I checked the midi signals with midi monitor and that shows the same note off message duration. 2-3 seconds on any fretted string.

Is there a specific setting that i'm missing? I have looked and looked and tried every combination that makes sense to get this better. I don't want to work around this problem with a foot sustain as I have done this already and it detracts from what the guitar to midi should be for me.

If this is covered somewhere else can you please point me in the right direction as I have drawn a blank on this one.

Thanks for any consideration to this issue.


gumtown

In the GP-10 System/Global settings for "guitar midi" adjust the "Low Cut Velocity", as this sets the note-off threshold.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Bit Flicker

Thanks for the quick reply.

I thought this would be the thing to do but it doesn't increase the length between note on and off to any significant difference. I had it quite high with the gr55 and the note duration was much better. I will see if I can get the gr55 back and do a proper AB of the two units and record the duration from the midi monitor. The only issue is the gr55 will have been restored back to factory so I won't have the settings I had before.

Am i asking too much to expect a note to hold for longer than 3 seconds on say the 10th fret of the 1st string?

I hope not but if this is the case then a sustain pedal will have to be used.

Thanks again.

gumtown

#3
What about 'bumping up' the GK Set string sensitivity?

Another thing to look at is string harmonics, the extra audio info could confuse the pitch to midi side of things.
Try damping the strings in the unused areas, like an elastic hair tie across the north end of the nut, or damping the bridge.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Bit Flicker

I gave the string sensitivity a go too. Set it to max and still no significant difference. The string harmonics is something I hadn't considered but this makes no difference.

Might this be down to the difference in the driver in how it interprets incoming signals? Could it be a conflict with other midi devices? This seems unlikely but I'll try a streamlined system just running midi monitor if I can. I'm doubtful though!

It really would be great to get this sorted as this is the last refinement to my rig before it can be performed live with. I have a relatively complex set so simplifications that can be made need to be made.

Ill report back later as I have an appointment in town Ive got to get to.

Cheers.

gumtown

It is all in the GP-10 to decide when a note finishes, apart from the GK pickup to string distance, the closer, the more amplitude, more note on time.
I don't think the USB driver would affect anything, except for latency. It is only a means of signal transport, it either arrives at it's destination, or not.

Can you use a midi analyser program to check note velocity levels, I would expect the same velocity whether open string, or 12th fret.
If you can observe the velocity level as the note decays and see if the note off corresponds to a certain velocity level.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

chrish

Can you adjust the envelope release times in the softsynth to extend the note?

Bit Flicker

Ok,
Something is a bit odd here. I turn midi on/off to off in midi settings and i still get midi notes coming out of the gp10???

The note off velocity is 64 across all strings and frets, which seems very high to me. I will search for any info on this and if it can be changed. Changing velocity cut does nothing to the note off velocity.

????

Bit Flicker

Chris,
As I understand it the midi out is independent to the synth modelling functions. I don't see any settings for the velocity off vale. The value of 64 might be to do with how it usually opens and closes toggled midi switches but that would be a real limitation if you can't have a lower velocity for off value than 64 as how are soft notes supposed to be played with regard to dynamics.
I don't think that would be acceptable on a keyboard!
Is it an aftertouch thing?
My keyboard gives varying off velocity values depending on how quickly I lift the key off. (Just discovered this feature)
I understand why there would be a fixed value for a note off for the gp10 but why so high?

Again any thoughts are most welcome.

gumtown

The velocity value should change with soft and hard picking.
Velocity values have no effect on note-off, a value of hexadecimal 64 (decimal 100) is near the loud end of velocity (range 0~7F/0~127).
You should see some other cc# data streaming with the note/velocity data,
typically many Roland/Boss 'pitch-to-midi' converters send other note level tracking data, which tracks the decaying note levels.

Given the information you have provided with the fixed velocity at 64, and the guitar-midi still sending when switched 'off',
I would suggest a backup of your patch data, and performing a Factory Reset.  :P
Then start off with just the 'default' GK set values, and see where it goes from there..  ;)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Bit Flicker

#10
I thought you had it with that one Gumtown but alas, it had no effect. The midi on/off setting still has no function either. Set on or off it still sends midi notes.

Has anybody else come across this issue or am I just lucky?

I really hate trying to pin point issues like this. There are so many factors that it could be and assumptions that can be made that obscure the reality of the thing. It drives me nuts  >:(.

Why assume it is originating from the gp10?

-The same setup using a gr55 didn't produce such short notes. (midi data needs to confirm this yet)

-The midi setting inside the gp10 doesn't operate as it should.

-Irrespective of any changes to gk settings or midi settings in the gp10 the same velocity of 64 is given (note off) for each note played.

Fortunately I bought the unit from a respectable music shop so it will be under warranty. Heaps of hassle as it is a 2 hour drive away but an artist has to suffer for their art!

Before I do this it would be of great help to get some verification from others that can observe the note off velocity on their unit and if the midi on/off setting also works as it should.

If it is the unit, how do I explain that it does 99.9% of what it should but there is a bit of a bug on note duration for midi out that I personally feel is not acceptable?

I find it hard to believe this is just a generic limitation of the gp10. If it is what is a better solution? Something like using audio to midi with Guitar jam origin? I just looked at a demo and it looks good but that's another expense I can't afford.

I hope it is something I am to blame for and can thus correct it.

I'm off to bed now as it is late here in NZ and I am currently feeling defeated and deflated with the whole thing.

Thanks for any input once again.

Jonathan.

gumtown

Ha.... I'm in NZ too (Whangarei), you must have brought it from the Rock-Shop.
Oh.. is it late at night again...  :)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Mauri60

hi Jonathan, free to laugh about that, but i have your same issue about  23 years ago :)
In 1993 i bought my first guitar synth , a GR1.
Then i try to "expand" machine sound capability interfacing it via midi, with my GM unit a Kawaii GMega.
There are no saints... all notes sounds approx 3\4 seconds, and after that, has been truncated also.
so, no decay, no sustain and many bad words! :)
i analyze all midis messages transmits from GR1 with cakewalk 3 for windows 3.1 ( work fine always in XP today ) without seeing none of strange, in  particular I've searching for control change 123 and so on.
one day i connect midi out of my GR1 to midi IN of my sequencer ( an old MC-50 ) midi out of sequencer, ti midi in of Kawaii expander, and.... IT WORKS !!! i really don't know why, but i think that GR1 probably have some bugs and transmit a CC for notes OFF and sequencer simply ignore or filter that message, so notes played through expander result naturally decayed ad i expected for...
NOW... far from me to think about for a solution, but you may try to run a DAW as reaper, or cubase or other like these, and charge your VST and CROSS FINGERS :)
let me know if this may help you, and sorry for my English ( hope you may understood my rusted English )
Mauri
Nothing is impossible,if someone else will do for you.

shawnb

#13
Note off velocity has no bearing on anything.   Ignore that.  (Off is off...)

If you send a screenshot of the midi traffic, we could help answer some of your questions (I don't have a gp-10).   

As mentioned above, I would look at the envelope ADSR on your downstream synth.  An aggressive Release (too short) might be the problem; try increasing the release or try different patches.   Also, very dry voices, with no delay/reverb, feel cut short.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#14
QuoteSomething is a bit odd here. I turn midi on/off to off in midi settings and i still get midi notes coming out of the gp10???

FWIW - Doesn't happen here with my GP-10

and might be an issue with Mainstage or some other pitch to MIDI source on your Mac running in parallel with the GP10

Suggests backup and reset the GP-10



If you still see MIDI Note on / Off events from Boss GP-10 when you turn MIDI off in GP-10 MIDI Setting, then plan a trip to have local Roland  / Boss Service Center check your GP-10 

QuoteOn open strings it lasts longer than you'd get from a note held on the 12th fret as you'd expect but even with everything set to maximise the note duration I am getting only 2 - 3 seconds before the note off message is sent.

That can occur if your string action is set too low or if you have a guitar that needs a fret level and dress procedure by a luthier   

Bit Flicker

Quote from: gumtown on August 01, 2016, 04:01:01 AM
Ha.... I'm in NZ too (Whangarei), you must have brought it from the Rock-Shop.
Oh.. is it late at night again...  :)

Good morning. Go to bed thinking about this and wake up thinking about this. I'm not obsessed, I just think about it all the time.
Nice to know we have a vguitar guru in NZ.
It was from the Rockshop at a good price so I will plan a trip there soon.

Mauri, your English is fine. I guess trying to control the Midiverse comes at a cost.
I have run it in logic without an instrument recording the midi notes and it all behaves the same.


Shawnb, I will get a screenshot later today and appreciate the consideration on this matter.
With regards to synths and their decay from the gp10. As I understand it the midi out and how the synth patches operate are not connect. I think this because with the modelling turned off the midi signal is still produced and sent so are exclusive to any settings within the patches themselves.

Elantric, I have had the midi monitor on only and it is showing only midi messages from the gp10. All other apps are quit. I would have to check against a different Mac that is essentially midi clean to rule conflicts out though.

I did a full factory reset and checked the midi using default settings for the gk3. The midi on/off still produces notes regardless of position.

The open string note length is just the physics of a longer string that possesses more momentum than a shorter one allowing it to vibrate for longer compared to a fretted note. The guitar is set up accurately and has very good natural sustain in any other regard using normal pu or onboard modelling from the gp10.

I will be contacting a service agent today and see what they say. This I suspect will be a painful process!!

Thanks again to all for your help.

Elantric

QuoteThe midi on/off still produces notes regardless of position.

Are you setting MIDI On/Off directly on the GP-10 ?

or using Boss Tone Studio?


chrish

#17
What shawn and i are suggesting is to try to extend the note in the softsynth programing, after the gp-10 sends it's note off message, by increasing the envelope release time or as shawn suggests, using delay and reverb. On the boss sy-300 with long reverb times and delay feedback, the synth note will play forever, long after the natural string envelope decays into no sound.

If what you describe as happening in the gp-10 note off is normal, this technique is one option. 

''Release (envelope): the final segment controlled by an envelope generator. The release portion of the envelope begins when the key is lifted. The release control determines how long it takes to fall from the sustain level back to it's initial level.'' from synth basics, keyboard magazine

Bit Flicker

#18
I just altered the on/off switch via the gp10 and this does indeed turn the midi signals on or off.

Just to put this issue into context:

My performance requires me to play guitar for traditional lead and rhythm parts with classic sounds from heavy rock to classical guitar.
Soft synths to produce everything from trance leads, skrillex scream and wobble bass to horn section and pad swells.
Vocals and sax through a mic when I'm not doing the other stuff.

There are auxiliary effects to help keep consistency between sound changes and an FCB1010 set up as a three channel loop station.

I have a GT-3 set up as a midi controller for patch changes controlling amps for guitar, presets for synths and vocals.
To get the control over layered synths I have built an x,y foot pedal to blend between 4 of the synth sounds so that I can flick between the different sounds that give textural and rhythmic changes. (This produces the skrillex type sound I'm after).
I also have a pedal set up for a traktor gate effect that means I can change its rate to produce rhythm effects on any sound I produce.

The looper allows me to build up the dimensions of the piece slowly and carefully. Parts of it can be put to front of house and my DJ drummer on his Native Instrument Maschine samples the loops so he can utilise them in his playing so that the music doesn't get to linear or repetitive. Once he has them sampled I clear my looper and start again.

This allows for the ultimate jam sessions that can produce studio quality results with the entertainment value of a live performance that can have exciting and unique experiences for both performer and audience alike.

This is why having a note that I can have better control over it's duration just by holding my finger on the string is important to me. My feet are busy with navigating 31 switches and 5 expression pedals and I need to be standing.

Ambitious I know but I have invested 1000's of hours and dollars to get this close and the last refinement was to get a gp10 to improve guitar sounds and navigation through patches on the unit. As you can imaging my gear footprint is quite big and compared to the gr55 the gp10 was a much better option.

Using a keyboard for synths would be so much easier but that is not the point. The point is guitars look way better are very cool. After all, isn't music all about looking good. lol.


The midi data shows duration between on and off. I started with open string and the the 12th fret. 6th string first then 1st string and the then rest in sequence from a to g.

Sensitivity is quite high and velocity cut is quite high too but this produces best playing for my needs other than a short note duration.
Increasing the sensitivity did little to note duration and velocity cut off did nothing at all to it's duration.

I should get hold of the gr55 later today and I'll post my comparisons on duration when I have it.

Cheers.

Elantric

#19
These are the GP-10 parameters that control Guitar to MIDI




===

This thread below explains Guitar to MIDI parameters that impact performance  - many are common to both GP-10 and GR-55
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6972.0


(ShawnB wrote>


All -

I've been compiling notes on GR-55 setups, my own hopefully practical spin on how to set things up. 

The information in the GR-55 manual regarding setting up the unit is pretty minimal.   This doc is meant to supplement the manual with real-world experience.  I wanted to pull together all of the best info I could find in one place, instead of scattered over a bunch of posts in a bunch of forums. 

And, very specifically, I wanted a "cook book", i.e., a specific set of steps to follow to make a setting properly and consistently.

I hope you find this helpful.   Feedback welcome. 

Shawn

EDIT:  9/14/12, More readable .pdf uploaded.  Changed nuance setting descriptions. 
EDIT:  2/20/13, added some GR-55 patches that may be helpful in confirming your setup. 

  • Setup-Nuance - will help you confirm your Nuance is configured well.  If your Nuance is configured correctly, finger plucking will generate bell sounds, and pick usage will generate a steel string guitar sound.

  • Setup-Velocity - will help you confirm your Velocity is configured well.  It is built from a basic electric piano tone, which varies its timbre with your picking velocity.  Low velocity (picking softly) yields that sweet e-piano tone, almost like a bell.  High velocity (harder picking) yields the growling e-piano tone normally associated with banging hard on the keys.  If you cannot get BOTH tones from your GR-55 depending on how hard you pick, you have probably squished your "Velocity Dynamics" setting too low - OR - you may have your string sensitivities too high, and as a result, are not getting all the intended subtleties from the GR-55's tones.
EDIT:  2/22/13, several changes in the document, mainly including Jim Williams' suggestions. 


(Click to Expand)












Bit Flicker

I didn't really utilise the nuance settings in the gr55 so it wasn't a noticeable loss in the gp10. I was very grateful for this info when I was setting up the gr55 some 6-7 months ago. It was invaluable to getting things to track well.
I had got things so nicely set up on the gr55 I was sure I was going to have even more success and joy with the gp10.
I might just be misremembering note duration I had with the gr55. Until I get my hands on it again is there anyone that can get some averages on note duration on the gr55?
I know this will be subject to how well the guitar sustains naturally and how the gk is set but it would help a great deal in building a more accurate comparison between the two units. This might be of help to others looking into getting either the gr55 or the gp10 in the future.

Cheers.

Elantric

#21
I have no problems getting long held notes on either GP-10 or GR-55 Guitar to MIDI using my Godin xtSA or LGX-SA with RMC Piezo pickups using these GK-Settings

In System, Set the GK PU type to:
PU type ;  PIEZO R
Scale :  ST
PU phase : NORMAL
PU direction : NORMAL
S1/S2 position : NORMAL
NORM PU gain : 0 dB
PIEZO TONE  LOW  :    -2
PIEZO TONE HIGH  :   -3

"DIS"
10.0 mm all strings (does not matter GR-55 ignores this for all Piezo PU selections)

"SEN"
Set the sensitivities for all strings to "50" average (+/-5  - that is all my strings have sensitivity set in the range between 45-55 .
(Note: Godin's older than 2012, might work better with Sensitivity set to "0")

"VEL" 
Velocity Dynamics :  2 (renamed to "Dynamics" on GP-10)
Play-Feel         :  2 (may vary depending on how you play synth tones)
Low-Velocity Cut  :  8-9

"NUA" (Not applicable to GP-10, which lacks the Nuance parameter) 
Nuance Dynamics   :  4 (Not applicable to GP-10)
Nuance Trim       :  4 (Not applicable to GP-10)

"DOW"
Shift   :   0
===============



I feel the Godin Ebony fingerboards on xtSA and LGX-SA do aid in Guitar to MIDI tracking and note sustain

gumtown

#22
I was doing another GK3 setup on a guitar the other day, and it seemed to go well, the GK setup menu showed good levels on the 6 strings,
the GR-55 modelled tones sounded Ok, but the PCM tones wouldn't trigger properly.
I then realised that on this guitar the GK pickup wire to the GK-3 'wart' is mounted downward, and the GK setting for "Pickup Direction" was initially at the default 'normal'.
I flipped the setting to "reverse", and all was good again.

I don't suppose your GK pickup is reverse mounted?
Thought I would ask, just in case that was missed..

I have done a few GK installs, external and internal, (have 7 basses and 3 guitars) and still miss the obvious.

The other one that gets me all the time for GK installs is the 3 way toggle, set to guitar only, with no tone sounding....
ahhrg.. again... it's a setting in the GR-55, because of the way I have it setup the GK-Vol as global patch volume.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Bit Flicker

Longest note duration is 11 seconds ish, which is what I could happily deal with, and the shortest duration is about 2 seconds, which is not that usable for my music.
I just tried a different gk3 external mounted guitar and the results were very similar.
I'll try the gp10 on a different Mac and see what if anything changes.

I still feel that my perspective on acceptable note duration is subjective and limited to my experiences.
Could I get some more opinions on what they would consider to be an acceptable duration for a midi note to stay on for please? E.g. 2-3 seconds for 12th frets on any string is about right.

I also missed the setting initially on the gp10 for reverse mounted pu when I tested it in the shop. Things sounded very poor especially the 12 string ac patches. I was about to write the unit off as a bad idea when I remembered the setting and flipped it. All was good and I bought the unit.

The guy at the shop was getting a bit snotty with me for taking so long in the demo room with just simply getting familiar with the navigation of the gp10 (which is very different from the gr55) that if I was checking the midi out into a computer he would have just about wet himself and lost a sale.

He was just a punk kid doing a bad job. There wasn't even anyone else needing the room. Anyway. I hope I don't have a duff unit!

Thanks again.

Bit Flicker

Just AB'd the gr55 note duration with the gp10.
Midi monitor shows a control message with each initiation of the note, a soft pedal 0. (I don't know what that should signify)

The note off velocity is still at 64 which makes sense if they use a value halfway between 1 and 127 to toggle between on and off.

However, the note duration is much better on the gr55. Nearly 3x longer for open strings and 2x as long for 12th fretted strings than on the gp10.

This is not so subjective anymore. I could carry on getting averages of multiple test to be more accurate but I think I can conclude that the gr55 is performing better than my gp10 for note duration.

The question now is:
Is it my unit that is not processing the signal from the gk3 that is causing these truncated notes? The unit is only a week out of the shop so I will be talking to them about getting a replacement gp10.

Here is the midi data from the gr55 and the gp10.