Ableton vs Boss vs other?

Started by Wiretoy, August 17, 2020, 05:06:15 AM

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Wiretoy

I actually already posted in the RC300 group. But perhaps there might be more alternative users/options here.

I'm about to buy an RC300 or go with Ableton/Mobius with a USB foot controller. I have never used any of the above and do worry about a learning curve. (I'm generally ok with technology though.)

I do have some basic looping pedals. And a TC Helicon Acoustic Play.

Vocals, guitar and lots of fx are priorities.

Any advantages to one over the other?
Or other options to consider?

(Must have both XLR and guitar Inputs)


szilard

MSuperlooper is on sale.



https://www.meldaproduction.com/MSuperLooper

I've been playing with it in cakewalk; haven't tried it in ableton yet.

aliensporebomb

I like the RC-300 quite a lot.  The tabletop RC-505 is the 5 loop version of the same tech.  I understand you can control it from foot pedals which might give you additional options.   The RC has XLR input for voice in additional to stereo quarter inch inputs and outputs plus sub outs.

I also own the Pigtronix Infinity (the big one, not the smaller Infinity 2) - it's got some features the RC doesn't have but doesn't include XLR-IN but does have stereo in and out plus midi IN (for sync tempo) plus dedicated undo jack, plus an AUX out so you can send loops to another musician who might have problems hearing the loops onstage plus an expression pedal input and USB (which is primarily used with their app that lets you load/save loops to a computer). 
Comparing the RC-300 has two expression pedal jacks, MIDI in, out and thru, plus usb (you can use the RC-300 as an audio interface in addition to as usb storage for loops to a computer).

I also have the Electro-Harmonix Stereo Memory Man with Hazarai which has some rudimentary looping capability and a Lexicon rack unit with loop capability.

I think the RC is roadworthy even though it is somewhat large and heavy.  FYI.
The thing I like about the RC-300 is I've used it to actually record performances and release them later.

Computers can and do offer more, but with the attendant issues of bringing computers onstage in difficult environments.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Wiretoy

Thanks.
Looks like I'm swaying towards the RC300.
All in one box, less cable management, less disassembling after a few drinks (post-gig).

It's a shame there's currently such a shortage of options.


Syph

When I first got into looping I started with the RC300. Great unit, solid construction etc, though for my purposes I ended up finding it too limiting so I migrated to Ableton/Mobius.

Ableton itself is a bit tricky, as it can do a lot of things but the native looper plug in is rather limited in it's ability to be effectively controlled via midi devices. The looper itself doesn't send any kind of midi feedback to indicate states, so I ended up with API scripts that would send visual feedback to my devices, but even that I found quiet limited as the looper device can't communicate cued states and a few other issues I can't remember now, though perhaps if I were better versed in scripting for Ableton I would be able to create more functionality out of Abletons looper.

I ended up hosting Mobius in Ableton, which has been pretty powerful as Mobius has a rather easy pseudo python based scripting language. My current set up has 5 main loops that function similar to the RC300 style dedicated foot switches per loop with Rec/Dub/Play on one pedal and a Fade/Stop/Delete function on the other, plus full visual feedback on my midi controllers (which is super vital for me), serial or parallel looping, loop raging/frippertronics, and probably other things I can't remember right now. Through some crafty mashing of Mobius scripting and Ableton features I also have resampling loopers, drum sequencers, various amp emulations and FX, mixing and remixing FX, etc etc. I also like that I can record full multitrack stems from my live input (pre and post FX), each looper, resampled, and sequencers, plus a stereo mix down, all whilst playing live.

I could go on for some time like this, so I'll wrap up by saying the RC series and its ilk from other manufacturers is a great place to begin looping and learning what you what to achieve with the tools, and solid on the road choices for live work, but lack the power, flexibility, and customisation of a computer/software approach.

Oh, and if you go for an hardware looper rig, I found all the auxiliary guitar MFX units, drum machines, mixers and so forth can really add up, where as a portable computer rig *can* be more compact and come with a more streamlined setup as you don't need to route a million audio cables and manage gain structures between hardware units.

Anywho, happy hunting/looping!

aliensporebomb

#6
Oh one more thing: there's another way to use the RC-300 to do a more Frippertronic style looping - I did two videos on this and some people using acoustic instruments had problems with it but check this out:

Part 1:


Part 2:


Basically loop aging ala Frippertronics.   Not stock - you have to use an external cable to route the signals unconventionally.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Syph

It's been a good few years since I was doing that on the RC, so my memory is a little vague....
Basic loop ageing on the RC was solid, and I remember setting it up to do parallel Frippertronicslooping which was mostly solid but there were some interesting gremlins in the system that would pop up occasionally. Nothing show stopping, but unexpected enough to throw off the plan.

I'm also trying to remember if I stole your idea, or if I developed it on my own...?
Anywho, howdy Mr Spore Bomb! Good to see you around this neck of the woods again. I occasionally still throw on a few of your tunes for nice sleepy time music.

Wiretoy

Looks slick. Nice screen. Nice and small too.

Alas no Mic input. What are these designers thinking?  :'(

Quote from: admin on August 17, 2020, 06:16:53 PM
the Aeros Loop Studio gets my vote
https://singularsound.com/product/aeros-loop-studio/

Wiretoy

And I was about to bite the bullet on the Boss pedal.

I'm been a cubase user for donkeys years. So perhaps I could host the möbius plugin in Cubase. Lessening the learning curve.

And can möbius do that pitch shift thing?

Which foot controller are you using with Mobius?
I'm looking at the MeloAudio MIDI Commander with an Volume pedal converted into an expression pedal.

Still very tempted with the Boss. But if I start needing a laptop for my midi pickup, then just stick it all in the laptop.



Quote from: Syph on August 17, 2020, 06:27:56 PM
When I first got into looping I started with the RC300. Great unit, solid construction etc, though for my purposes I ended up finding it too limiting so I migrated to Ableton/Mobius.

Ableton itself is a bit tricky, as it can do a lot of things but the native looper plug in is rather limited in it's ability to be effectively controlled via midi devices. The looper itself doesn't send any kind of midi feedback to indicate states, so I ended up with API scripts that would send visual feedback to my devices, but even that I found quiet limited as the looper device can't communicate cued states and a few other issues I can't remember now, though perhaps if I were better versed in scripting for Ableton I would be able to create more functionality out of Abletons looper.

I ended up hosting Mobius in Ableton, which has been pretty powerful as Mobius has a rather easy pseudo python based scripting language. My current set up has 5 main loops that function similar to the RC300 style dedicated foot switches per loop with Rec/Dub/Play on one pedal and a Fade/Stop/Delete function on the other, plus full visual feedback on my midi controllers (which is super vital for me), serial or parallel looping, loop raging/frippertronics, and probably other things I can't remember right now. Through some crafty mashing of Mobius scripting and Ableton features I also have resampling loopers, drum sequencers, various amp emulations and FX, mixing and remixing FX, etc etc. I also like that I can record full multitrack stems from my live input (pre and post FX), each looper, resampled, and sequencers, plus a stereo mix down, all whilst playing live.

I could go on for some time like this, so I'll wrap up by saying the RC series and its ilk from other manufacturers is a great place to begin looping and learning what you what to achieve with the tools, and solid on the road choices for live work, but lack the power, flexibility, and customisation of a computer/software approach.

Oh, and if you go for an hardware looper rig, I found all the auxiliary guitar MFX units, drum machines, mixers and so forth can really add up, where as a portable computer rig *can* be more compact and come with a more streamlined setup as you don't need to route a million audio cables and manage gain structures between hardware units.

Anywho, happy hunting/looping!

Syph

Ha!
Yeah, sorry, I am a pretty bad influence...

Regarding the pitch shifting thing, I am not sure. I personally don't work that way, and Mobius is stupidly customisable and flexible to the point I have yet to see 2 people running it even in remotely similar ways. From what I understand, it started life as a digital clone of the old echoplex units and then the developer just kept adding things. So if it's in the echoplex, it'll be in there. It also has a lot of info in it's documentation, but being a now abandoned piece of free software the manuals are a very detailed in some places and only has chapter titles in others. Still, I'd recommend downloading the manuals and having a browse. I know it has playback speed adjustments in there somewhere, and when hosting in a DAW you can route individual loops to dedicated tracks in the DAW, so you could place pitch shifting plugins on the return tracks there.

While far from ideal from a fiscal perspective, I'd recommend getting a hardware looper like the RC series even if you plan to go software long term. Before I started looping I was thinking about it all the time, and I would have extra parts in my head whilst playing solo so I thought it wouldn't be too hard to get into looping beyond the obvious learning a new bit of muscle memory.... 
Oh boy was I young/stupid back then! (now I am older and dumber  ;D)

I think I got Ableton around the same time I got my RC300, and I spent years building different live rigs in Ableton. I loved the user interface on the RC300 (good buttons, full visual looper feedback, dedicated buttons per loop, multiple functions per button, probably other things) but found the unit too limiting in terms in other ways. Like, the drum machine is very limited, the FX even more so, major limitations with routing into/out of the unit (2 stereo outs, and all inputs are essentially summed in the input stage), can't change user patches effectively whilst playing, limited number of assignments so I couldn't access all the functions I wanted via controllers, limited functionality with midi sync (it can really only be the master).. uhh...
Oh, and even when running high quality amp sims/multiFX and drum machines on the side I had issues managing mixes for live performances through high quality sound systems since there are no built in compressors/limiters/etc after the individual loops.

To be fair, much of these limitations don't seem to affect other peoples ability to make great tunes with it, but I do notice that I rarely see really interesting song structures or compositional techniques with them.

When building my various Ableton rigs over the years (before incorporating Mobius) I found there were different compromises. All the sonic issues were easy to resolve as I had a full DAW to work with, but the user interface was problematic. Abletons looper plugin is very limited regarding external midi controllers and visual feedback on MIDI devices. The clip slot system (in the arrange view with it's weird mixer looking screen) is amazing for some types of workflows, but I loathed it (specifically for live use, great for working at home). Can't overdub audio in clip slots, and it's a non volatile storage thing, so you have to keep track of how many clips you recorded on what tracks, what scenes you have used or not, etc. Once again I have seen people use Abletons looper or it's clip slots/arrange view to make awesome tunes, and where hardware loopers often has obvious structures Ableton can do far more interesting things, but I could never quiet feel at home enough to make the music flow sound natural enough for my liking.

Once I got into Mobius though that all changed. I was able to use it's scripting engine to get the user interface I wanted (which is heavily inspired by the RC series loopers) but with all the sonic benefits of Ableton. Plus with all the cool scripting power I can build crazy things to get highly customised behaviour out of Ableton that would not be practical live otherwise!

Hardware wise, these days I host everything on a MacBook Pro (13" 2012 model) with the following controllers:
launchpad mini
3 iPads running Lemur connected over wifi
KMI softstep
Nektar Pacer

Not sure if I'll keep the Pacer long term or migrate to another KMI softstep, the KMI SS is super portable and has heaps on input methods but I like some of the functions the Nektar offers.

I'll add in the only 2 videos I have only youtube right now for "educational purposes". It's definitely not a shameless self promotion, more an exercise in tolerating the horrible things I've made....  ;D but I'll hopefully have some material online before the end of the year that will be higher quality. The first was a quick demo of the kind of thing I did as a street performer with the RC300, the second is my current rig after a few drinks at the local open mic night, though I had only got the core functionality of the rig up a few months before this was filmed, was still hunting bugs and learning to use it soooo.... *insert cliche my performance sucks comments here*. (That laptop and RigKontrol pedal both have been ditched since then, and I only had 1 iPad back in those days....)

I'm pretty busy these days so I can be a bit flaky around here, but I'd be happy offer some tips to get you started with Ableton/Mobius if you go that route. There is already tons of info in the RC300 thread, to the point that I think sometime people ask already answered questions to save digging through all those threads....

Anywho, this rant is getting seriously long winded, so uh.... Good luck? Keep us posted?
And feel free to ask more questions!
Questions are awesome.




plexified


I think this is a project that you may want to start from the end results you desire and work backwards.

Your going to ask yourself some questions like :

How Many Stereo Tracks Do I need ?

This is probably the most important. The RC 300 is three Stereo and may be plenty for what your looking to do. The RC 505 has 5 with much more control especially MIDI, from there if thats not enough your able to run two of these ^^ units together for 6 or 10 tracks. And for the next price level your into an ipad or PC.

Live Control - Foot controls , Tabletop or Both.

This one is critical for a guitar player, we are all about foot controls, but getting over that stigma opens up a huge world using your hands also.

All in the Box on the Floor, PC or ipad ?

Thisi s a bit more geared towards live performance. Do you trust a PC ? is an ipad enough ?

You get what I'm describing here by now. I point this out because you are going to develop habbits and affiliations and deep rooted connections with this next rig. You do not want to pick the wrong team or the wrong rig. You will learn, but perhaps at the expense of time and the frustrating RTFM manual.

Paul David did a video recently on looping wher he was using Ableton. He showed his rig and song development and it quickly expanded to the 'MORE' column, so he quickly showed how he took the work and used ableton to the next level for full production.

I found it very useful , not to commit to that particular platform , but to open your mind to what if . . .





Just some thoughts to ponder. I use the RC 505 Live Solo and with my band as well as import parts to my workstation and use it to practice into to save all material. As a side note. Hope this helps.


plexified


For The BOSS RC 300 this is a great thread for expanding its ability up to 6 mono tracks.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7716.0


Dalai_llama

Quote
I'm about to buy an RC300 or go with Ableton/Mobius with a USB foot controller. I have never used any of the above and do worry about a learning curve. (I'm generally ok with technology though.)

Hi, joining this thread a little late, but here's my take (after reading other posts):

The decision workflow presented by @plexified is very good and I will follow that myself whenever I am at such a crossroads. In the end, I would gauge how easy is it to integrate a physical looper to an existing pedalboard and what that particular unit has to offer, versus employing a software-based solution that may also require some hardware. It is possible to loop without the pedal switches, and it's actually much easier today than what I did 10 years ago -- which required some midi routing and programming.

What I want to add to the discussion here are the sea of possibilities that Ableton Live provides. Since Looper's first version it can read the tempo of your playing without tapping a pedal. Further enhancements allowed us to change time signatures on the fly. All parameters can be programmed. Effects, pitch shifting, cloning clips (to create a harmony) and tying that to a scale is a breeze. Grouping clips in a "scene" is easy.

Furthermore, the upcoming Version 11 offers a microphone tempo tracking that adjusts tempo in real-time, which can eliminate the need for clicks when playing on stage. Here's a brief video -- it's called Tempo Following:



Coupled with Ableton's infinite audio and midi routings, this is a major feature (but I can't tell if other hardware loopers have something like that, sorry.)

Therefore, it will come down to what you want to achieve and how easily a laptop/computer integrates into your rig. Since 2007 I perform with a Mac 'embedded' in my rack -- I even used it without a monitor -- so to add Ableton's looper was not that complicated.

Lastly, which may seem like a silly consideration: you have to weigh how good you are with your feet. Really. If you have the coordination to use your feet and control looping easily, then the RC or other unit may do what you need with less risks than having a laptop/computer on stage. Though it can always improve with training, I've found that using my fingers with a tabletop controller (Launchpad, in my case) was easier than stepping on switches. Furthermore, I designed some note sequences that would trigger actions in my host (Plogue Bidule, then output the resulting MIDI to Ableton), such as move left-right-up-down in Ableton's grid, then arm, record, mute, change scenes and so forth, so I didn't have to take my hands off the guitar at all.

A good example of mastering footswitch looping is Taylor Reed -- her feet are faster than my fingers:



Then, on the other side of the spectrum, Neon Vines controls everything with her fingers. I couldn't to that if I had two brains:



(Note: in a more ellaborated setup, she at times uses a Behringer FCB1010 midi footswitch.)

Good luck.

peter_dawson

Quote from: Syph on August 18, 2020, 05:23:21 AM
Ha!
Yeah, sorry, I am a pretty bad influence...

..........

I'll add in the only 2 videos I have only youtube right now for "educational purposes". It's definitely not a shameless self promotion, more an exercise in tolerating the horrible things I've made....  ;D but I'll hopefully have some material online before the end of the year that will be higher quality. The first was a quick demo of the kind of thing I did as a street performer with the RC300, the second is my current rig after a few drinks at the local open mic night, though I had only got the core functionality of the rig up a few months before this was filmed, was still hunting bugs and learning to use it soooo.... *insert cliche my performance sucks comments here*. (That laptop and RigKontrol pedal both have been ditched since then, and I only had 1 iPad back in those days....)


Hey Syph. That's awesome looping :D