SY-300 - Sounds starting with a noise

Started by gobi, February 04, 2018, 03:32:21 AM

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gobi

I'm still having problems in  building sounds starting with a noise, which is so important. I mean- a flute for example is manly recognised by its noisy incoming. Everytime I'm trying to use noise as OSC it sounds not realistic at all.
Any suggestions?
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

chrish

#1
You may know this already however believe if you turn the sharpness parameter all the way up to 100, the noise oscillators becomes the same pitch as the note you are playing.

Don't know if that helps create a flute sound though.

gobi

#2
here is a test file, the noise comes very heavy if power, sharpness or filter is high
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

ElliotG

#3
I typically associate the noise input of an osc with percussion or cymbals.  Early analog drum machines used gated and filtered noise to create their sounds.

For a flute, It might be more effective to use a PWM or a SAW and use an aggressive filter to remove the higher harmonics.   Looking at the preset, for Gt+Bs+FluteLayer the OSC for the flute is starting with a TRI.

Warning... I'm an SY300 beginner. 

ElliotG

#4
Apologies for the comment above... I've downloaded your patch. Looks like you want a breath sound as part of the attack, and are using a sin and tri for the "body".  I experiment with your patch, and share if I come across anything useful. 

Do you have a sample flute sound that you are looking to achieve?

ElliotG

#5
Okay...Ignore my naive request.  Thank you for the humbling learning experience.  I'm reminded of the old joke... "What is the difference between theory in practice?  In theory it should work, and in practice..."

Gobi - How did you come up with your choice of waves, mixing a tri and sin, with the frequency shifts you selected?

A few resources I've come across, I suspect that gobi may not learn much from these, but for some of us some potentially interesting info.

I thought I would start with a reference sound to refresh my brain while programing, I found these solo flute performances...



I found this interesting... but not especially useful.  It presents a mechanism to recreate a flute sound, but relies on the ability to route a SAW through a low-pass then a high-pass filter.
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/practical-flute-synthesis

I'll continue to humble myself trying to get a decent sounding flute...


ElliotG

#6
A few hours later...
Here is the results of my experiments "Flute Lab".  This is my first SY300 patch created from scratch. 

While I used the Boss Tone Studio, I found adjusting some parameters using the knobs on the SY300 to be more effective.  This was especially true for filter cutoff and resonance.

I used a PWM 25% for the main OSC1.  I tried most of the wave shapes but was happy with this sound.  The LFO adds some tremolo.
I used OSC2 for noise to add a little grit or breath at the start of notes.  I used the filter on OSC2 to turn down the overall level, reduce the duration and add some dynamic response (there is more "breath" if the string is hit hard).

I ran both of these into the slow-gear effect.  This removed the leading edge of the attack an yielded a more flute like envelope.  I added some reverb to add some space.

The patch has the final mixer turned fully to synth (no thru/rtn).

I'd welcome and feedback of suggestions...

gobi

#7
Wow, thanks a lot for the big reply! I'll check this later, because no I have to go to work
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

ElliotG

#8
Later today I hope to try a few ideas from the Sound on Sound article I previously posted.  Perhaps it was useful after all...
Move from using the LFO to adjust amplitude to using the Wave control to modulate the filter cutoff.
"A flute does not get significantly louder or softer as the player alters the blowing pressure; it becomes brighter or duller. 
...the flute does not exhibit pitch modulation (vibrato) or even loudness modulation (tremolo) but rather tonal (brightness) modulation."


Use layers, a separate OSC and a high-pass filter for lower notes.
The article describes how the low notes of the flute suppress the fundamental frequency.  I'm going to replicate the settings of OSC1 (PWM) to OSC3, and use a HPF on OSC3 and layers to see if I can model this effect.

Use CTL1 adjust the cutoff frequency
"Measurements show that the fundamentals and low harmonics of softly played notes are just as loud as forcefully played notes, but that the upper harmonics are attenuated to a greater extent.  This means that, with a pressure-sensitive synth, we need only route aftertouch to the low-pass filter cutoff frequency to achieve a realistic result."  I will see if I can do something similar using CTL1

gobi

#9
My problem was more in the harshness of the noise, so I put the noise on top of the oscillators to use it as scours of ring modulation. I didn't get it - was this the solution - but the result is nice now, listen to attachment....
Flute was just an example, but I guess this sounds kind of real.
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

chrish

#10
Any chance you guys could post MP3s of your patches?

ElliotG

Here are a few notes from my original "flute lab" patch.  I have not had a chance to make the changes I described above.

chrish

Thanks for posting that. It sounds like a piccolo to my ears, which in itself is pretty amazing. I think the phrasing helps sell it.

gobi

#13
Yes, sounds great- I first had to check,  I dont hear the guitar sound at all - im playing not laoud in my living room an i have a semi acustic guitar, this seems to confuse me sometimes!

I'm not well prepared for recording, I#ll try my best in the evening
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

ElliotG

Notes as I made changes:
Move from using the LFO to adjust amplitude to using the Wave control to modulate the filter cutoff.
I've turned off the LFO, that I was using for tremolo, and used the wave control to adjust the cutoff frequency of the fliter.
Wave Learning: The "source mode" description in the parameter guide is misleading.  "Toggle mode" hard switches between the "target min" and "target max" values.   In toggle mode the waveform has no meaning, effectively it is a square wave.  In "moment mode" the value of the target smoothly transitions from target min to target max using the selected waveform.

The wave CTL is modulating the filter cutoff frequency.  I found using a sin wave to be prefered over a tri, there were some artifacts with the tri.  It sounded a little better with a lower filter resonance value. I am modulating the filter over a narrow range.  I find the difference vs the LFO very subtle.  I called this patch "Flute lab 2".

Use layers, a separate OSC and a high-pass filter for lower notes.
The flute requires that the high pass filter is followed by a low pass filter.  The architecture of the SY300 does not support this, too much of the "buzzy" part of the PWM wave comes through.  I tried using a Sin or Tri for the lower frequency notes but decided it was not enhancing the sound. 

Use CTL1 adjust the cutoff frequency
This was a easy change to make, but required me to go back to the flute lab one, with the LFO adjusting the amplitude.  I do not see a way to switch between 2 different "wave CTL"  settings using CTL 1, there for I gave up the modulated cutoff frequency, and went back to the LFO.  This patch is called "Flute Lab 3"
I suspect I could set up 2 different cutoff modulation ranges with a sophisticated MIDI controller, but I don't have one :) and this is not that exciting a patch.

All 3 patches are in the attached TSL file
"Flute lab" - LFO modulates the amplitude for a slight tremolo
"Flute lab 2" - Wave CTL modulates the cutoff frequency for OSC1
"Flute lab 3" - This is "Flute lab" with the addition that the CLT 1 switch changs the OSC 1 filter cutoff value.

This was a great learning exercise for me.


gobi

I recommend you to get a pedal for the SY300, makes a lot more fun in creating "living" sounds .
I don't come any further with the noise theme in the moment....

3 Examples in the file:
-my flute version
- a cello made from your flute
- kind of banjo (made from your flute) witch reminds my of a banjo i have build for my son in later years from a round  bisciuit box
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

szilard

Quote from: ElliotG on February 06, 2018, 10:14:45 PM

Use layers, a separate OSC and a high-pass filter for lower notes.
The flute requires that the high pass filter is followed by a low pass filter.  The architecture of the SY300 does not support this, too much of the "buzzy" part of the PWM wave comes through.
Have you tried using a band-pass filter?

Brak(E)man

Quote from: gobi on February 07, 2018, 08:33:14 AM
I recommend you to get a pedal for the SY300, makes a lot more fun in creating "living" sounds .
I don't come any further with the noise theme in the moment....

3 Examples in the file:
-my flute version
- a cello made from your flute
- kind of banjo (made from your flute) witch reminds my of a banjo i have build for my son in later years from a round  bisciuit box

What do you mean by
Quotepedal for the SY300
?
A pedal before the Sy ? Ifso what kind of pedal ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

Quote from: szilard on February 07, 2018, 09:15:07 AM
Have you tried using a band-pass filter?
Or use the regular EQ after the osc.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

gobi

I can  not say what exactly my problem is, maybe i expect to much.
I have used bandpass filters, to use the EQ also is mabe a good idea.

I was taking about a external Pedal for the SY used in the EXP/CTL4,5
Its fully editable so one can say for example " if louder than more filter" or whatever you like. For me the use of a pedal makes the SY much better.
...sorry  for my bad english, i'm from germany

Elantric

#20
QuoteI was taking about a external Pedal for the SY used in the EXP/CTL4,5


Your options are listed here

External Expression Pedals / External CTL Pedals
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33.0

Here is a post with a list of Roland and third party Expression pedals with their pot values.

Roland / Boss gear is designed for Expression pedals with 10K Linear pots

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Effects-Pedals-Multi-Effects-and/Expression-Pedals-and-their-Pot-Values/td-p/30347097#cs_boss%20ev%2050-l

Bespeco VM18L - 20k
Boss FV-500 - 10k linear (expression pot)
Boss EV-5 - 10k linear
Boss EV-7 - 10k linear ("extra range" pot adds up to 50k ohms)
Boss FV-50L - 50k linear
Ernie Ball VP jr. (active) - 25k log
Ernie Ball VP jr. (passive) - 250k log
Korg EXP-2 - 50k linear
Kurzweil CC-1 - 20k linear
Line6 EX-1 - 10k linear
Mission EP-L6 - 10k linear
Moog EP-2 - 50k linear (reducable)
M-Audio EX-P - 10k linear
Pigtronix EP-1 - 20k
Proel Volume Pedal - 100k linear
Roland RV-5 - 10k linear
TC Electronic X1 - 25k log

Boss FV-500 H and L models have dual pots for volume and expression. Exp pots are 10K linear, so it can work as a 10K Expression pedal.

ElliotG

QuoteHave you tried using a band-pass filter?
The filter from the article has a HPF with a cutoff frequency of "a few hundred Hz" and a LPF with a cutoff of 2KHz.  A bandpass would not achieve the desired results. 

QuoteOr use the regular EQ after the osc.
This is a very good idea.  I'm embarrassed that it didn't occur to me.  I thought I was done with this patch ;)... I will now go back and give this a try.

QuoteI recommend you to get a pedal for the SY300, makes a lot more fun in creating "living" sounds
Did you have a suggestion?  I've been thinking about the Keith McMillen Instruments Softstep 2, but I want to spend more time with the SY300 before I add additional complexity.    I also have a few expression pedals (Moog, Line6) I have not yet looked to see if either would be compatible with the SY300.  Does anyone know?

ElliotG

Thank you Elantric... reviewing the link you provided, it appears the Moog expression pedal should work.  I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

admin

#23
Quote from: ElliotG on February 07, 2018, 10:49:05 AM
Thank you Elantric... reviewing the link you provided, it appears the Moog expression pedal should work.  I'm looking forward to giving it a try.

Its 50K dual pot - so it will only work after an electrical mod
https://www.eventideaudio.com/community/forum/stompboxes/expression-pedal-compatibility-moog-ep2




Roland / Boss gear is designed for Expression pedals with 10K Linear pots


Must read

External Expression Pedals / External CTL Pedals
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33.0

ElliotG

#24
Admsustainiac,  Thanks for the heads-up.  I ordered an EV-5 and a FS-7....