GP-10 - Modeled Guitar vs Normal PU volume

Started by pasha811, February 25, 2017, 11:35:41 AM

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pasha811

I am noticing a big difference between the Modeled Guitar and Normal Guitar Volume.
I know I can balance them in many ways but the overall feeling is that modeled guitars are somewhat distinctive quieter than the normal PU. Is this the norm?

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

#1
You probably have guitar with hot output mag pickups - ( not a fan of those myself)




With your Guitar Volume knobs ( on the guitar ) on "10" 
Adjust the Normal PU Level in Boss Tone Studio - to match the Modeling tones



Or adjust the Normal PU Gain in the GK Settings

pasha811

Thanks Elantric,

I was suspecting that but I have no humbuckers equipped guitars. However I have googled a little and it seems that LTD-ST-213 has custom made SSS pickups with higher than conventional output. My 1989 Strat Plus has Lace sensors Gold. By the way they are built I would say they implement some electrical trick to reduce hum maybe an Humbucker-like construction.
http://www.americanmusical.com/images/descimages/LAC_Sensor_Diagram.jpg 
Bear with me that I am no engineer and thanks to this Forum I'm pushing myself into uncharted territory!
I have soldered, put insulation aluminum in the pickguard, setup neck relief, action, changed tuning machines, installed a GK3 drilling the pickguard and the wood... and soldered a new TBX control into my Strat! That's the magic of VGF!   ;D 8)

Best
Pasha

Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

Thanx to this thread I found another parameter that I never seen before.
The cable sim

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Quote from: Brak(E)man on February 26, 2017, 01:19:14 AM
Thanx to this thread I found another parameter that I never seen before.
The cable sim

I have googled and it could be a simulation of cable length to compensate for the shortness of Guitar to GK cable.
In real life Guitarists use longer cables than 20cm.. but what means from an electrical and audio standpoint it's over me  ???

 
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

The longer cable the less high end ( usually )
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Elantric on February 25, 2017, 11:49:14 AM
You probably have guitar with hot output mag pickups - ( not a fan of those myself)


With your Guitar Volume knobs ( on the guitar ) on "10" 

Adjust the Normal PU Level in Boss Tone Studio - to match the Modeling tones

Isn't that like turning down the volume knob on the guitar ?
Isn't it better to use mix level ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

beatpete

Quote from: pasha811 on February 26, 2017, 02:03:20 AM
I have googled and it could be a simulation of cable length to compensate for the shortness of Guitar to GK cable.
In real life Guitarists use longer cables than 20cm.. but what means from an electrical and audio standpoint it's over me  ???



I've often wondered about this, sure the GK to guitar cable is a few inches but isn't the analog guitar signal just carried down the 13 pi cable anyway/ So depending on the length of your 13 pin cable...

gvidelock

There's also a normal pickup gain control in the "GK Settings" menu (image below, scroll down) so you can set the gain for up to 3 different guitars.

   

That's where I do the settings since I have a mix of humbucker and single coil GK or piezo equipped guitars that need to be balanced.

   ...Gary
-------------------------

Godin Spectrum SA
Godin Freeway SA
Fender Telecaster with Ghost and Hexpander
Fender Stratocaster with internal GK3 with Synth-Linx
Warmoth custom with internal GK3
Boss SY-1000
Roland GR-55
Roland GP-10
Katana 100W Head

pasha811

Quote from: gvidelock on February 27, 2017, 08:20:43 AM
There's also a normal pickup gain control in the "GK Settings" menu (image below, scroll down) so you can set the gain for up to 3 different guitars.

   

That's where I do the settings since I have a mix of humbucker and single coil GK or piezo equipped guitars that need to be balanced.

   ...Gary

Great. That it's going to be very useful I think! :-)
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Yohanes

#11
Quote from: beatpete on February 27, 2017, 07:57:38 AM
I've often wondered about this, sure the GK to guitar cable is a few inches but isn't the analog guitar signal just carried down the 13 pi cable anyway/ So depending on the length of your 13 pin cable...

No, the guitar cable is going into GK-3 pickup electronic, this consider as an amp buffer for the guitar point of view. From GK-3 pickup to Boss GP-10 thru GK cable is another different story, that's why GP-10 have the cable sim feature to compensate the very short guitar cable into GK-3 input.

Personally, I cannot really hear the difference between Cable Sim On and Off in my small room (I like high gain anyway so don't bother with the Cable Sim feature), but maybe in live situation in a big venue this have any effect? I don't know, hope there are pro performer guitarists here can share their experience with this Cable Sim option.

Thanks.
Yamaha Pacifica 510V
Roland G-707
Godin Freeway SA
Boss GP-10
Roland GR-50

pasha811

Quote from: Yohanes on February 27, 2017, 06:56:53 PM
No, the guitar cable is going into GK-3 pickup electronic, this consider as an amp buffer for the guitar point of view. From GK-3 pickup to Boss GP-10 thru GK cable is another different story, that's why GP-10 have the cable sim feature to compensate the very short guitar cable into GK-3 input.

Personally, I cannot really hear the difference between Cable Sim On and Off in my small room (I like high gain anyway so don't bother with the Cable Sim feature), but maybe in live situation in a big venue this have any effect? I don't know, hope there are pro performer guitarists here can share their experience with this Cable Sim option.

Thanks.

Me too. Confirm that at room levels (indoor - at home) it makes no difference, or my ears are gone (Actually I have lost something beyond 5K).
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Ari

#13
As i'm rocking the GP-10, I can't help but feel that he pickup models are...lackluster. Playing a GC-1 with Dimarzio Injectors...the magnetic pickups just sound so much livelier. The LP, Bright Hum, Tele..just completely square sounding. Everything else sounds awesome. Am I doing it wrong? Any advice about setting up the pickup models etc? Thanks
Ari

Vade

This is one example of what the GP-10 can sound like. If these sounds work for you then you've some tweaking to do to get yours working as well.

Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Majiken

Holy Jesus   :o great patches, great playing, what a thumb!!!!
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Cups

There are some models I like better than others. Not all inspire. I like the bright hum, lipsticks, rics, as an alternative. The strats, p90, and 335 I like a lot. I much prefer my own tele to the modelled one. They're all useful as a voicing however. Especially if you're searching for a different sound

carlb

The parameter controls for GP-10 pickup models aren't detailed enough to get you closer directly. You'll have to play with an overall patch to better approximate your Tele within an overall patch.

Ideas might include subtle/borderline overdrive before the "amp," EQ before the amp, compression before the amp, etc.

I had Duncans mounted in my guitar purposed for GP-10: For the best humbucker tone, I use the "real" pickups. For other guitar tones, I use the GP-10 to model them. The pickup tones I care the most about get "real" pickups dedicated to them.

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Brak(E)man

IMO the strength with modeling lays in the whole package
not the individual parts like PUs
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Ari

Thanks for all you responses guys. I feel like the pickup modeling is just kind of flat and not enough gain even with the LP model. Have to crank the lead amp models all the way up to HIGH gain and 120.  Is it possible its my string sensitivity? Playing a roland GC-1, and the the meters are about 2/3 of the way up.

Rhcole

Also remember you have options to hit the amps harder, such as setting the levels high on the EQ. The EQ by itself can increase the amplification factor many times. You can throw FX etc. in the path as well.

If you wanted, you could even have two high gain options such as two EQs in series with the levels up, or a high-gain compressor. It would likely be noisy as all getout, but you'd have a crushing amount of gain.

Mastering settings on the EQ and the models matter because with the GP-10 little things add up to a lot. You need to have good control over EQ settings, know what they do, and also the settings within the models.

Virtually all Boss/Roland products of this type through the SY-300 reward the musician who has a curiosity and experimental nature, and they tend to disappoint those who just want to plug a cable in and run into their amp like a Les Paul into a Marshall. It's a different mindset.

admin

The other trick is create a separate GK PU profile with a hotter GK String sensitivity, to create a higher gain signal to drive the GP-10 modeling 

Cups

I find the modelled pickups hotter than my mags.
May be your settings. You also could have really hot pickups?

pasha811

Two guitars, one with GK2A (Strat Plus) and GK3 (LTD ST-213). Both are hotter (volume is higher) than modeled counterpart.
This has always looked strange to me but over the months I adjusted to that. Using the Mix function you can have equal 'hotness' for both Modeled and Natural PU. In any case the overall sound it's the sum of all its part like others have pointed out.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

#24
Quote from:  pasha811 on August 16, 2017, 11:51:21 AM
Two guitars, one with GK2A (Strat Plus) and GK3 (LTD ST-213). Both are hotter (volume is higher) than modeled counterpart.
This has always looked strange to me but over the months I adjusted to that. Using the Mix function you can have equal 'hotness' for both Modeled and Natural PU. In any case the overall sound it's the sum of all its part like others have pointed out.

Just use the Normal PU GAIN Volume control to balance the  Normal Guitar pickups to the COSM Modeled Guitar pickups