GP-10 - Guitar to MIDI settings

Started by vurnt99, July 18, 2014, 03:28:41 PM

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vurnt99

I just did a pitch to midi test via Ableton Live and THIS IS THE BEST OUT OF THE BOX EXTERNAL TRACKING ROLAND HAS EVER ACHEIVED. NO TWEAKING.

This is with Parker w Ghost saddles
Need to run other tests, but WOW!

mbenigni

Oh man, now Vernon is in on it. You guys are KILLING me...  :)

Elantric

#2
Be sure to close down Boss Tone Studio prior to using any DAW app
http://www.bossus.com/support/knowledge_base/?product=GP-10

To manually enable GP-10 Guitar to MIDI (Guitar Performance  MIDI Output)

* Power on Boss GP-10

* Press the SYSTEM key several times until the GP-10 LCD Display reads 
   MIDI:On/Off

* Rotate the PATCH/VALUE knob until the GP-10 LCD Display reads  "ON" in the lower right corner.

* Use the Left / Right Arrow keys to access additional Guitar to MIDI controls as detailed below:

*Press the EXIT key

* Play guitar  you should see MIDI Note on / off messages being transmitted using a third party MIDI message Monitor (use Snoise on a Mac OSX , BOME's SENDSX or MIDI-OX on Windows, IOS MIDI Monitor for iPad, MIDI Monitor for Android)

Additional controls exist




QuoteThe Boss GP-10 "Guitar to MIDI" is very similar to the GR-55 Guitar to MIDI with same controls, like Low Velocity cut, etc but with the benefit the hardware USB Driver on Boss GP-10 is more efficient, so when driving soft synths, the GP-10 react a bit faster with lower latency than GR-55.

Myself - I'm in agreement with Vurnt99,
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11506.msg86127#msg86127
QuoteTHANK YOU so much Elantric!!!Far from being the Stop Gap product I feared it would be, The GP-10 IS A BREAKTHROUGH. I've been on this Midi/Synth Guitar quest for YEARS-I'm STUNNED at how much better this thing sounds than I thought it would!!! It's INCREDIBLE-tonally it LEAPS ahead of the GR55, at least preset-wise! It's cleaner sounding artifact-wise, than my VG99 - The noise-gating is VASTLY improved.This GP-10 NEEDS an FC-300 size Big Sister w hardware midi I/O, like TOMORROW. Like some others here, I'm tempted to get a 2nd one...!
Still wrapping my head around what I'm actually hearing...

I just did a pitch to midi test via Ableton Live and THIS IS THE BEST OUT OF THE BOX EXTERNAL TRACKING ROLAND HAS EVER ACHIEVED. NO TWEAKING.

This is with Parker w Ghost saddles
Need to run other tests, but WOW!

At least on a modern Mac running OSX10.8, and a 2012 Godin xtSA with RMC Piezo PU's,  the "out of the box" GP-10's Guitar to MIDI driving Ableton Live Synths responds faster / lower latency than GR-55 or VG-99. (and I have not had to touch "Nuance" controls, and no false triggering here) ) Indeed, on a Mac, this is the fastest Guitar to MIDI device Roland has built IMHO. a Retest using my JTV-69 with Gk-3 tracked equally fast.

Boss GP-10 on Windows 7 ( Lenovo W520) remains slower and not as low latency in my tests   

thebrushwithin

QuoteIndeed, on a Mac, this is the fastest Guitar to MIDI device Roland has built IMHO.

How close to an FTP?

Elantric

#4
On my 2012 Macbook Retina (OSX10.8  ) - the FTP is just a bit faster (lower latency) but only on lower strings,. On Boss GP-10, the Top three strings feel the same latency as FTP, Roland has improved the Guitar to MIDI in the GP-10. Which for me makes the FTP a bit redundant for most cases since the differences are so small now.
Remember this is a case of using Boss GP-10 and Roland/Boss GP-10  USB Driver on a 2012 Macbook Pro Retina 8GB Ram with 768GB SSD drive, and Ableton Live 9

On Window7 (Test Computer: Lenovo W520, I7 Quad Core 32GB RAM, 512GB SSD)  - the GP-10 Guitar to MIDI remains sluggish, and geared to hobbyists  - its that dramatic a difference 

Spider

#5
Interesting. I will try again because for me so far Guitar to MIDI on GP-10 isn't better then on GR-55 but maybe it is faster. Any way on the same patches FTP is cleaner (especially when playing chords) with less glitches then GP.

[edit]
I try tomorrow GK on different guitar with 11-50 string maybe it would change somethings.

jassy

Quote from: Elantric on July 22, 2014, 09:31:32 AM
On Window7 (Test Computer: Lenovo W520, I7 Quad Core 32GB RAM, 512GB SSD)  - the GP-10 Guitar to MIDI remains sluggish, and geared to hobbyists  - its that dramatic a difference

Thats really wierd.
The driver and the latency specified for the soundcard used will make a BIG impact here in the results achieved. You have taken into account this factor?
Assuming you are using the GP-10 also as audio card, and the same latency is specified in the control panel of both computers the only possible explanation is that the Windows driver that Roland has done much worse than the Mac one...

Elantric

#7
QuoteAssuming you are using the GP-10 also as audio card, and the same latency is specified in the control panel of both computers the only possible explanation is that the Windows driver that Roland has done much worse than the Mac one...

I'm using the Boss GP-10 as my "sound card" (USB Audio Interface) and the Official Boss GP-10 USB Driver for both Mac and Windows systems, and Audio latency set similar settings.

And confirms my Mac provides an improved user  experience when driving Soft Synths with any MIDI Controller  - I have far better results and  lower latency using Roland GP-10 Core Audio drivers on a a Mac , and its not a trivial difference (compared to my sluggish Windows Response for SoftSythns here  -even when using my FTP, my Mac's respond Much faster than using Windows.

And FWIW - Its my opinion that VG-99 and GR-55 as the USB Audio Interface using their official Roland USB Drivers always track faster / lower latency using a Mac and OSX vs any flavor of Windows hardware and Win OS )   

MusicOverGear

#8
I switched from Win 8 to [hackintosh] Mavericks on the exact same hardware on three machines - a desktop and two identical notebooks. I had similar experience with other audio and MIDI gear. I don't know the technical stuff as to why. I was shocked by the change in responsiveness on the same hardware.

I switched to OS X mainly to be able to buy Logic, but now I'll stay regardless of DAW

Elantric

#9
FWIW  - the Boss GP-10's MIDI Pitch bend range is not fixed, but can be user defined anywhere between 1 to 24 steps 

jassy

Quote from: Elantric on July 22, 2014, 12:25:59 PM
OF course I'm using the Boss GP-10 as my "sound card" and the Official Boss GP-10 USB Driver for both Mac and Windows systems, and Audio latency set similar settings.

And confirms my Mac provides an improved user  experience when driving Soft Synths with any MIDI Controller  - I have far better results and  lower latency using OSX and Core Audio drivers, and its not a trivial difference (compared to my sluggish Windows Response for SoftSythns here  -even when using my FTP, my Mac's respond Much faster than using Windows.

And FWIW - Its my opinion that VG-99 and GR-55 using their official Roland USB Drivers always track faster / lower latency using a Mac and OSX vs any flavor of Windows hardware and Win OS )

Me and many musicians who use windows pcs to make music are using daily latencies of 3 ms or less, and to play virtual instruments at this latency is not a problem at all (its less latency than many hardware synths), so I cant agree tha there is a problem so serious with windows systems.

As I said before it is the most important to have a good sound card and a really low buffer setting to work at low latencies without it being an obstacle. RME is one of the top brands but not the only (this source is the most serious study on the subject by comparing the performance of different sound cards and manufacturers: http://www.dawbench.com/audio-int-lowlatency2.htm). In windows systems  latencies of 1ms can be obtained, as you can see in this chart, so the problem its not really windows per se. Apple systems maybe can be a bit more efficient in this area, but also is very important the soundcard to obtain very low latencies.

When using the USB driver provided by Roland, there maybe a difference between Apple and the Windows version, certainly the driver of the VG99 and GR55 from experience I can say they are not the most efficient in Windows.

I'm not saying that you experience is not true, but I think interesting to record that others have had a different experience.

Elantric

#11
I'm merely reporting my findings of only using the Boss GP-10 and the official Boss GP-10 USB Driver and one USB cable on different operating systems. (Win7 64 vs OSX 10.8 )

I'm rather positive Windows latency WILL go lower, if using a different Audio Interface and Driver (perhaps an RME) .
QuoteMe and many musicians who use windows pcs to make music are using daily latencies of 3 ms or less, and to play virtual instruments at this latency is not a problem at all.

In windows systems  latencies of 1ms can be obtained, as you can see in this chart,

http://www.dawbench.com/audio-int-lowlatency2.htm


I'm curious to know what specific Windows USB Audio Interface you own that delivers under 3ms latency, under real world conditions - what were the Audio Settings (24bit, 16bit, 48kHz, 96kHz)? What Apps were used? What DAW or VSTi Host was used?


http://www.dawbench.com/audio-int-lowlatency2.htm

The chart you list above mentions that that latency numbers  for RME HDSPe AES/ADI8QS ( a PCIe card )
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdspe_aes.php
RME HDSPe AES/ADI8QS  Output Latency of 1.519 ms , but that is for its ADAT Lightpipe I/O ,and excludes additional latency due to external D/A box conversion or any CPU processing latency of the host system which varies a lot depending on current Softsynth being used for GP-10's Guitar to MIDI function. In 2014 running 24 bit @ 44.1kHz, add 1 millisecond for A/D stage  and another 1  millisecond for D/A stage for many typical devices.

I do observe the RME ADI-8 QS - states the following:
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_adi_8_qs.php

QuoteLow Latency

In the  RME ADI-8 QS,  RME uses a high-class AD converter from Cirrus Logic, offering exceptional Signal to Noise and distortion figures.   But the biggest difference to all other ADCs out there is its innovative digital filter, achieving for the first time a delay of only 12 samples in Single Speed (0.25 ms), 9 samples in Double Speed (0.09 ms), and 5 (!) samples in Quad Speed (0.026 ms).

These values are less than a quarter of those available from even much more expensive devices. They represent an important step in further reducing the latency in the computer-based recording studio. At DS and QS the added latency can simply be ignored. The DA-converter offers similar conversion in the range of 5 to 10 samples, turning analog digital monitoring into real analog-style monitoring!

Myself I have an RME HDDSP 9652 PCI card in my Mac Pro Tower and for low latency that PCI card always outperforms USB Audio interfaces
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdsp_9652.php

For Triggering Softsynths we do not need to worry about the A/D portion.


aliensporebomb

Wow. 

And I though the VG-99 with sensitivity set to 22 using MIDI over USB to my Mac running softsynths was the best I could expect for tracking. 

I might have to check out the GP-10 after all!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

jassy

I use an RME FF800 at 24 bit/48 khz at 064 samples wich in Cubase reports at 3 ms of latency (that's the latency I was referring), although taking into account the DAWBENCH data would be 3.6 ms.

The typical latency of the A / D and D / A converters from what I've read from various sources  is normally around 1 ms or less.
I'm talking about output latency as we are referring to playing virtual instruments, so yes the latency real would be at 4,5 ms.

Anyway what I wanted to say is that the problem is not necessarily the windows systems but the card used in the comparison and if in the test you have made the  windows results are so bad ,the cause most likely will be on the Roland USB drivers themselves or at least need to be taken into account that probability.

Rhcole

I just completed a series of tests A/B'ing the GP-10 MIDI vs. Fishman Triple Play on my Win 7 laptop using RME Babyface for output. I used a very merciless/unforgiving sawtooth oscillator with a fast attack and no effects to compare.

Observations-

GP-10 MIDI outs seem substantially improved in latency and tracking compared to both GR-55 and VG-99. They are quite usable now whereas I considered them close to novelties before.

Nonetheless, Fishman Triple Play still easily bests the GP-10 in tracking and latency. Some notes that glitched or wouldn't play without errors on the GP tracked flawlessly using the FTP.

FTP remains the gold standard for MIDI guitar tracking.

Elantric

#15
QuoteI use an RME FF800 at 24 bit/48 khz at 064 samples wich in Cubase reports at 3 ms of latency (that's the latency I was referring), although taking into account the DAWBENCH data would be 3.6 ms.

Realize "real world" actual audio latency is higher than the latency numbers Cubase ASIO Panel reports
for real world Audio latency measurement -  I only trust this


QuoteFTP remains the gold standard for MIDI guitar tracking.

I agree - but the gap between Roland Guitar to MIDI (thanks to Boss GP-10) and Fishman Tripleplay Guitar to MIDI is getting smaller on my OSX systems.

Just add EvenHarmonic's GTAK5 to the GP-10 and the gap is even narrower
http://evenharmonic.com/products/gtak5

http://evenharmonic.com/files/gtak/manual/html/gtak_manual.html#toc5

Spider

Definitely GTAK will help with auto chromatic mode. Even HMT1 http://evenharmonic.com/hmt1 would be helpful because it can block PB information without using GP menu.

nervoteso

#17
hi,
i would like to use gp10 to control midi and vts on studio one etc on pc. i managed to do that sometime ago but i can't seem to make it work again. i plug gp10 by usb to m-audio card and i set preferences on studio one in midi devices but i can't listen to any virtaul instruments

Elantric

Why use the MAudio interface?

The Gp-10 is designed to be an audio interface, connect your powered speakers directly to the Gp-10

nervoteso

Quote from: Elantric on December 01, 2014, 07:23:24 AM
Why use the MAudio interface?

The Gp-10 is designed to be an audio interface, connect your powered speakers directly to the Gp-10

i can't make VTS make it work also if i use gp10 as an audio interface (i use studio one vts and tripleplay).they work fine with tripleplay

nervoteso

#20
Solved i dinn't set correctly midi device in studio one settings

Redvers

#21
Why doesnt the GP-10 midi track as well as the internal synths?
I can play the Osc synth without glitch most of the time, but when I run the midi out into a laptop and load a piano onto garage band, too many weird notes appear, I couldn't practically play it live. Anybody else get this? What settings can you use to alleviate it? Im playing fingersyle by the way, just want to do some basic 4-5 note chords.

Headless68

Internal sounds are 'processed' hence very little feel of any lag or latency - the external midi capability is using a totally different system of converting pitch to midi - any of these systems available today will have a level of latency - the GP-10 is one of the best available ( along with the fishman tripleplay) normally some adjustment in your playing style can produce good results - also it's important that you have optimised GK pickup setup

Yohanes

Would you try to set your Boss GP-10 to reduce the MIDI data transmission by:
1. Start Boss Tone Studio
2. Click SYSTEM (at the right bottom corner)
3. Make sure MIDI Setting - Chromatic is set to ON
4. Set LowVeloCut to 10 (see Boss GP-10 manual page 13 Guitar Performance MIDI Output Settings (MIDI: ))
5. Since you are playing "piano patch" so you don't need pitch bending data, so also try to set Bend Range to zero and Data Thin to ON.

See if this could help.

Best regards,
Yohanes
Yamaha Pacifica 510V
Roland G-707
Godin Freeway SA
Boss GP-10
Roland GR-50

admin

#24
QuoteWhy doesnt the GP-10 midi track as well as the internal synths?

Guitar to MIDI always takes the longest processing time to trigger

Compare Latency speed for most  Guitar to MIDi systems here

http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

and read

MIDI Guitar FAQ
http://www.panda-audio.com/midiguitar.php

Tripleplay vs GR-55 Guitar to MIDI Speed Test
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10700.0


For GP-10  Guitar to MIDI settings,   - its helpful to read the GR-55 Guitar to MIDI settings thread - lots overlap and  between the two units in this regard, and many GP-10 users with a Mac report the GP-10 performs Guitar to MIDI a bit faster.

GR-55 Guitar to MIDI Controller setup
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3787.msg25564#msg25564