Author Topic: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?  (Read 16830 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mbenigni

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2011, 07:57:21 AM »
Quote
wireless based on gk/13 pin(?)maybe at Namm 2012

Hey, guitarhelper.  I've seen that device before, and while it is definitely cool (I'll be watching out for it), I'm pretty sure it's just wireless MIDI + wireless audio.  This isn't the same animal as wireless GK, where you have 6 distinct audio signals, MIDI, and some proprietary control signals.  Granted, wireless MIDI + audio will get you 90% of the same functionality, but it won't allow for alternate tunings, guitar modeling, etc. and obviously it won't allow for compatibility with existing GK products.

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2011, 09:21:14 AM »
Mr Andras Szalay posts progress on this new Fishman Wireless MIDI Guitar device on the Yahoo MIDI Guitar group. Most recent version was sending MIDI only to a wireless USB dongle that must be used with a Windows PC. No audio

More here
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3444.0
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:34:36 AM by Elantric »

Offline Bill Ruppert

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2011, 10:01:41 AM »
What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?

Getting it down a 1/4 cable!
Thats what keeps it from being jumped on in my honest opinion.

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2011, 10:56:23 AM »
Quote
What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?

Getting it down a 1/4 cable!
Thats what keeps it from being jumped on in my honest opinion.


Yes the Gibson Dark Fire does this, as did the 1986 Shadow/Takamine/Ovation GT6  - but at the end of the day the tradeoff is a battle of taming the residual crosstalk. (its horrendous on the Dark Fire) Although in the case of Dark Fire this crosstalk is possibly due more to mechanical coupling of adjacent piezo saddles in the bridge, as opposed to the analog Mux/Demux circuit sending 8 discreet audio channels down the ring of a 1/4" TRS  cable.

Here's an example of a typical 4 channel PAM(Pulse Amplitude Modulation)  Analog Mux / demux circuit - (similar to the type used in Shadow & Dark Fire)



   
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 11:27:33 AM by Elantric »

Offline Bill Ruppert

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2011, 11:54:09 AM »
That would do it built into a GK-3!
But more important how did the audio sound??

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2011, 12:26:04 PM »
Quote
That would do it built into a GK-3!
But more important how did the audio sound??

I have thought about designing this PAM mux into a GK-3 replacement with a small box at the other end to provide a tru 13 pin output.

The nature of a PAM mux /demux process renders reduced bandwidth audio - about 20hz to 8khz freq. response - adequate for guitar and feeding VG-99 / GR-55. 
 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 12:27:38 PM by Elantric »

Offline Bill Ruppert

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2011, 01:32:42 PM »
I dont like the 8k.
Might not be a lot up beyond that but there is some.
I would pass.

Quote
The nature of a PAM mux /demux process renders reduced bandwidth audio - about 20hz to 8khz freq. response - adequate for guitar and feeding VG-99 / GR-55.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 01:52:52 PM by Elantric »

Online A2theT

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2011, 01:47:53 PM »
What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?

two things:

1) Wireless.  skip the 1/4" cable aka the middleman.
2) Wider selection of manufacturers of 13-pin guitars.  (I like to play rock/metal mostly and Ibanez but they no longer make a GK model. Either does ESP or Jackson.)

So unless these guys turn one out I will probably never purchase a 13-pin guitar but rather continue installing gk-kits which is unappealing for 99% of the guitar playing population due to cost and or tools/skillset required to install.

HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

Offline Rorster

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2011, 08:23:15 PM »
Thanks for your input Gumbo. My tele already has Graphtechs 13 pin jack and their Hexpander board installed plus a separate 1/4" jack as well as holes, knobs and switches already drilled. So I don't think space will be my problem. I have a new 13 pin jack  (from graphtech) that I intended to put in one day and see if the first one was somehow defective but haven't done it yet. The best actual connection setup for an internal GK3 will then likely reveal itself to me when I'm actually looking at the equipment... Also, I too would be interested in any improvement in the quality of these jacks as I'm sure most on this site would also. I'm looking forward to your progress. Good luck.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 08:43:11 PM by Rorster »

Offline kenact

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
  • Total likes: 6
  • Rating: 8
  • I'm neither Right nor Left, I'm in the MIDI
Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2011, 09:02:27 PM »
The nature of a PAM mux /demux process renders reduced bandwidth audio - about 20hz to 8khz freq. response - adequate for guitar and feeding VG-99 / GR-55.

Elantric, I'm not an electrical engineer, so if I'm misinterpreting the problem, please forgive me. What is the overall bandwidth of the PAM mux/demux? On a 6 string, I would think it would have to be around 8khz x 6, since you're trying to multiplex 6 singles.  You also need a control signal which would need it's own bandwidth allocation. I'm just wondering if cctv technology might not provide better bandwidth over a coax cable, knowing that the cable spec is different. If I recall correctly, cctv had a bandwidth of 495mhz back in the 1980's, which was multiplexed to carry numerous cable tv channels.
Godin Session Custom FTP, LGXT, LGX SA, Redline 1 PROTOTYPE, A12, A10, A4
Danoblaster Baritone w/GK-3
Gretsch Nashville, Viking
Fender Strats, Twin Reverb
Fret King Supermatic
Larrivee DV03RE
Seagull 12
VOX Phantom XII
Roland GR-55, 33, 30, 20, GI-20, RC-50, VP-7, US-20
and soon Sentient Six
MORE

Offline gumtown

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2011, 09:21:20 PM »
Analog stacked wideband channels would be ideal, but the hardware needed to mux/demux would be enormous,
then the next best option would be 8 x PCM analog/digital channel converters (6 x hex + normal PU + data supervisory for knobs & buttons which is acutually 7 + data) to serial data.
Then a high pass/low pass filter for the standard guitar jack cable to mix PCM data with a DC power supply all on the same coaxial cable = Awesomeness  ;D.

Had one of those 13pin plug "moments" last night at practice, left the end of my GK cable laying on the floor and someone nearly stood on it.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Offline Bill Ruppert

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2011, 09:50:56 PM »
If I could have a nickel for ever time I thought I stepped on and smashed a GK cable I would be rich:-)

I want full band with 20 to 20 with a multiplexed signal down a twisted pair or 1/4 cable .
Its 2011 it should be here by now, don't you think

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2011, 10:03:49 PM »
Latency of any analog multi A/D then D/A system as a " digital GK-13 cable"  will add approx 6 milliseconds latency before the signal hits the VG-99/ GR-55.  And will require a PC board the size of the Variax for the A/D side at the guitar.  Studies show that humans can not detect latencies below 15 milliseconds. But remember the GR-55 GTR To MIDI processing takes 30 milliseconds under the best conditions. Most folks will definitely " feel" any added latency.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 08:48:18 AM by Elantric »

Offline Kevin M

Re: Re: Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2011, 12:39:57 AM »
If I could have a nickel for ever time I thought I stepped on and smashed a GK cable I would be rich:-)

I want full band with 20 to 20 with a multiplexed signal down a twisted pair or 1/4 cable .
Its 2011 it should be here by now, don't you think

I would love to see a real high-quality 13 pin cable.

Sent via mobile device

Offline mooncaine

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2011, 07:36:30 PM »
As to the install comments - I don't buy it - it is pretty simple to install and setup; and could easily been done by any half-decent guitar tech imho. Or you can buy guitars with it builtin so I do not see the problem here either.

Sure, it's not a challenge for Macciza--a master builder who moved the VG99's actual ribbon onto a guitar, fer cryin' out loud! I think I could handle an internal kit now, too, but not perfectly, not professionally well done.

The reason I say GK adoption should be easier is a business reason, though: overcome the obstacles that convince a player not to try it. I was thinking of an earlier convo on this board, that vanceg started, I think, about business ideas that could help Roland's GK product line be more profitable. I'm thinking of myself, frankly, because the more the GK stuff sells, the more likely it'll be there for me when I want more of it.

Macciza, vanceg, and others here on this group might be willing and very able to install a GK, but my point was about how to convince more players to choose a GK pickup (or something compatible with Roland GK gear).

To get those players, I think it needs to be easier to fit to their guitar. More string-spacing choices are an absolute must. Roland's got the double-stick tape idea going, and that's an absolute must, too. A smaller wart's a good idea.

It might not make sense to *us*, the gadget-loving pioneers with the arrows already in our backs, but for someone who's thinking, hmm, do I even want this?, the pickup system must be easy, must work with the player's existing guitar of choice, and should not require any modification (or as little as possible).

Personally, I *like* making holes in guitars, but I realize most folks don't, whether it makes sense or not. They like their guitars to look pretty (whereas I like them to look like a grubby old tool bench). I'm up for covering my guitar with tape. I'm not the guy they need to convince.

Offline gumbo

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 930
  • Total likes: 127
  • Rating: 26
  • Changing the 13-pin interface - one Jack at a time
Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2011, 08:08:43 PM »
Unnerstood, Moonie...

...one of the reasons I'm pursuing my own brand of 13-pin surface-mount socket... 8)

While I see where you're coming from in your 'tool bench' comments, I believe there's also a middle ground that should be able to be achieved without too much heartache..

Although a number of us cringe at the 13-pin din, (and I DO include myself at times!) I agree that the more stuff is out there, the more likelihood exists that more (and extra!) solutions will be found...

...now I'll sit down with a nice cup of tea before my mind explodes with the next great idea.. :o
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2011, 08:43:37 PM »
To replace the fragile 13pin DIN cable, I have thought of simply using a DisplayPort Cable as a new analog / digital interface to the Roland GK guitar, but run GK-3 analog signals + MIDI up to the guitar.
 




Then I could use a new guitar mounted Ardiuno based stealth MIDI knob controller for more user control right on the guitar - rather like the old Roland 24 pin guitars.

(RARE-JIMMY-PAGE-OWNED-PLAYED-ROLAND-G-707-GUITAR-PROTOTYPE-SERIAL-SAMPLE-01 is available here:
Full size DisplayPort cables are more robust than DIN13 cables, can be readily found in 25ft length. Perhaps have a DisplayPort  to DIN13 adapter at the GR-55 / VG-99 end. And a redesigned GK-3 "pod" at the guitar with more user controls.

Just  a dream for now.

The issue is the DisplayPort cable capacitance is designed for high speed data, and not analog audio. While it may not be ideal without  well designed active analog buffers, its really worth pursuing for my need for a more user friendly road worthy cable IMHO.

For example, the JamHub does OK using essentially a video DisplayPort type connection to its proprietary DisplayPort analog audio option adapters (SoleMix Remote) .
www.jamhub.com


and DisplayPort cables are cheap
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 09:02:01 AM by Elantric »

Offline gumbo

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 930
  • Total likes: 127
  • Rating: 26
  • Changing the 13-pin interface - one Jack at a time
Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2011, 10:04:56 PM »
Elantric...

FWIW...that HDMI -to- DIN13 adaptor is already on a drawing board near me...it's something I've been thinking about for some time...

...one of these days we need to compare dreams..    ;)
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2011, 10:15:27 PM »
Quote
FWIW...that HDMI -to- DIN13 adaptor is already on a drawing board near me...it's something I've been thinking about for some time...

...one of these days we need to compare dreams..    ;)

Or simply create our own  GK Analog Display Port  Specification 1.0

Latching Display Port Cables at 25 ft lengths are available, but more expensive but perhaps a better choice for Live gigs. the cable ends will actually "Lock in place at the Guitar !

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-DisplayPort-Cable-Latches-DISPLPORT25L/dp/B00273QVO2

and Display Port has the advantage of 20 pins


We have over 4,000 people here now and we represent the largest user base of Roland GK gear, and Roland has been so damn slow in evolving and ineffective at bringing real change.

A more robust Guitar to VG-99 / GR-55 connection method is mandatory right now.

I feel its time we take control of our own collective destiny.

Id like to see all the existing 13 connections of the GK-3, plus at least one dedicated  Analog Ground Reference pin,  and a Digital Ground Reference pin, and 2 pins for MIDI + and MIDI -, or other bi-directional RS485 type interface. that leaves  spare pins for a  Variax AES/EBU connection too for future use.

At the GR-55/VG-99 destination side is where the "smart GK Analog DisplayPort breakout box goes, with output ports:

* GK-13 DIN 13 pin output: To feed Roland GK13 gear (VG-99, GR-55,etc)
 
* MIDI Output: To feed external MIDI controllable gear.


and finally have a real strat 5-way switch to control VG-99 COSM guitar selection , and virtual Volume and Tone controls  same as the Variax JTV-69 currently enjoys.


Building a prototype of the above will be added to my winter project list!


Perhaps down the road we could migrate to the full 8 channels of digital audio transport + control lines that the true HDMI specification supports, but as a startup product/protocol, that path has many penalties, restrictions, and expense.
* It becomes expensive (must join the HDMI.org and a yearly fee)
* A/D then D/A conversion at either side of the cable WILL ADD LATENCY THAT WE DO NOT NEED!)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 02:24:23 PM by Elantric »

Offline aliensporebomb

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2011, 10:54:29 PM »
The only concern is:  is there a licensing fee per cable for use of HDMI?  I do like the idea and the cables are more robust.

They're easily available.  Try this: it's 8 p.m., you're onstage at 9 sharp and your drunk lead singer took hedge clippers to your 13 pin cable - where do you get a 13-pin cable on short notice?

With HDMI - it's Best Buy to the rescue and a 20 foot HDMI cable and you're out the door and onstage by 9.  Phew!

Might it be possible create a 13-pin to HDMI connector and vice versa on the other end?  To retrofit an existing system?  An adapter box of some sort?

Another thought - wouldn't it be nice if there was a double-stick tape mountable hex pickup and a reduced/flattenened "wart" - there's no reason for it to be so darned tall. 

Half the height would be fine.  Reducing that even more would be better.   

I had a thought that the cable from the pickup to the wart could be disconnectable and the "wart" could attach to your guitar strap and you would access volume and preset up/down from just above where my straplok button goes.  Then if you wanted to just play normally without the GK system you didn't have to have the wart cluttering up the works.

The appeal: unobtrusive.

OR:  if you had a hex pickup or bridge with piezo pieces built into every guitar with a 13-pin or HDMI connector you could have a system that was
usable or not.  That was the beauty of my old Roland G-202 guitar - there were gigs I brought it to just to use it as a guitar because it was a good guitar.

There are times I just want to plug my regular guitar into a regular amp so the convertable aspect is appealing to me.

Look at Godin - they released a guitar that had a regular guitar out and then a USB out.  Gibson experimented with firewire and ethernet. 
Only problem with ethernet is that working in I.T. those little plastic tabs that keep the cable connected always break off after you use it enough times.

So yeah, HDMI would be a good idea.   Keep us posted.
"this is aliensporebomb" - my instrumental debut with the vg99 now on itunes: http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/this-is-aliensporebomb/id391880218
More online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

My VG-99 based music projects:
http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2011, 11:02:14 PM »
Upon reflection,

I strongly vote for the creation of a  "GK DisplayPort Cable Specification 1.0"
 
* 20 Pin LATCHING CABLE, that will not fallout!


* Zero licensing fees and more robust Locking cable, and 20 pins+shield)
FWIW - The lack of requirement for annual licensing fees is the reason Apple, Dell, and Jamhub do not use HDMI.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 02:32:16 AM by Elantric »

Offline Elantric

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2011, 11:12:11 PM »
Quote
I had a thought that the cable from the pickup to the wart could be disconnectable and the "wart" could attach to your guitar strap and you would access volume and preset up/down from just above where my straplok button goes.  Then if you wanted to just play normally without the GK system you didn't have to have the wart cluttering up the works.

Indeed - this must be addressed and is a crucial requirement for external installations.

Perhaps use the GK-3 hex pickup, but add a quick disconnect connection to the removable "GK Displayport Pod" that would be smaller than the GK-3 control pod.

The Guitar must be able to easily fit in a hard shell case, and have a swift method of installing and removing the control pod!

Perhaps we "borrow" the design of quick release mounting clamp , and adapt that for the removable "control pod"?     

 

Rather like the old "quick release" 1985 Roland GK-1





But a small Strap Mounted Control Pod on the lower bout does sound very appealing too!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 11:33:15 PM by Elantric »

Offline gumbo

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 930
  • Total likes: 127
  • Rating: 26
  • Changing the 13-pin interface - one Jack at a time
Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2011, 06:36:57 AM »
Now we're talking...

I DO like where this is going.... :D

Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

Offline FreeTime

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2011, 08:10:16 AM »
A while ago I was looking for a new 13 pin cable in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, a city of 1.1 Million. There was not one music store that had a cable of any length in stock ( I had the whole day to just drive around and look ), they were all special order.

I'm not aware of walking in circles, but after a while of playing the cable gets all twisted.

On a sidenote, I'm all for getting rid of the cable/connector altogether and going with a multichannel (multiplexed ?) RF solution; with the rapidly evolving technologies of the last decade this is feasible and not outrageously expensive.

Offline cynegetic

Re: What would make 13-pin guitars more appealing, more successful?
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2011, 09:07:35 AM »
While fine for a digital signal, would those cables be able to handle analog cleanly?