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Author Topic: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"  (Read 4281 times)

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FrankG

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GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« on: March 15, 2011, 08:32:09 AM »

On the GR-20 "Play Feel" is a property of the Individual patches, while on the GR-55 it is a global or "Master" property that is tied back to your "Setup" file and common to all patches...

Overall I think that my sensitivity, pick-up height etc is set properly as I have excellent tracking on most patches, but there are 2 (two) critical Patches that I have to improve...

#1 - Drum Kit (Jazz kit #901) which is plenty fast at responding for my needs but is constantly firing off horrible whistles and drum voices that are beyond disruptive when they sound... As an aside I do use clean consistent plucking techniques that are precise and sound very consistently on other patches.

#2 - Any Piano Voice (though I prefer an accoustic voice) - The issue is I can't get "Hammer-on's" to sound clearly... on the GR-20 I can run a phrase or scale and terminate on a note and hammer a triplet and create a neat resolution...

So my question is: does the "Nuance" parameter, of the individual patches supercede the "Play Feel" parameter of the GR-20, and if so how does one get the most out of modifying the "Nuance" parameter...

AND if they are completely unrelated, how do you tame unruly patches when everything else seems to work fine????

...fg
 
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sheguitarplayer

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 09:25:41 AM »

Im by no means an expert having only owned my gr55 for a couple of weeks.
I was thrown a bit by the play feel being part of each guitars system properties on the GR55 as opposed to on a patch basis on the GR30 and GR33.
There is the new velocity parameter on a patch basis however and this is much more variable, having a plus or minus value of about 50 if memory serves me well.
Ive been using this in place of the old play feel parameter.
Dunno if this is the right way to go but it does seem to work pretty well.
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FrankG

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 10:00:23 AM »

Hey SGP,

Thx... I'll give that a go on the errant voices...

Also DDLooping, posted the snippet below... in the 1st Impressions thread...

Quote
It could be either that..
- the pickup is not close enough to the strings
- the velocity dynamic is set too low
- the play feel is too low
- the velocity cut is set too high
.. or a combination of those.

Though I think he was talking about the "Master" parameters... so it's good to have a lever on the individual patches...


...fg
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shawnb

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 09:36:36 PM »

After all these years, I was just getting to know my trusty old GR30.   All the parameters were labeled right on the front of the unit, and you could see all configuration possibilities.  A simple finite set, easily comprehended.    With the GR55, many of these simple configurations have been exploded into many, many configuration options.   

To answer your first question (to the best of my limited understanding anyway) - yes, the various Nuance settings AND a lot of the Attack Velocity settings have replaced the old 'Play Feel' (which my GR30 has as well). 

Play Feel was intended to help direct the synth how to interpret the dynamics of your playing on older GR units.  On the GR55, at the PATCH level, the settings related to how the dynamics/velocity of your playing are interpreted include:
  • Level Velocity Sens
  • Velocity Curve
  • Nuance Sw
  • Cutoff Velocity Sens
  • Cutoff Nuance Sens
  • TVF Attack Vel Sens
  • TVF Attack Nuance Sens
  • TVA Attack Vel Sens
  • TVA Attack Nuance Sens
  • (TVA) Level Nuance Sens
  • Pitch Env Level Sens
Under the MASTER settings there are global settings as well (Under GK Set - VEL and NUA pages) that are worth experimenting with.   ***The MASTER setting that helped me out a lot was the LOW VELOCITY CUT, under GK SET | VEL - just decrease it by 1 or 2.

So it's not as simple as saying NUANCE replaces Play Feel - there's a ton of related functionality.   

One note - I believe that some of the squelches you hear are actually pinch harmonics.   I've encountered this as well - I think there are a bunch of voices (not all voices) where a pinch harmonic is interpreted as a very high note being triggerred.   Play around & see for yourself - try to do them on purpose.   Once understood, it's easier to avoid. 

To tame these unruly voices, I would work each PCM voice independently, and would first start experimenting with the voice's Level Vel Sense and Velocity Curve settings, then work your way down the list I provided above. 

Hope this helps.   

If I've misunderstood/misstated anything, folks please chime in & help us both out!

Shawn
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 10:33:08 PM by shawnb »
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shawnb

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 10:04:07 PM »


A couple of other specific suggestions on playing triplets via hammerons.  I've had the same issue, and I KNOW these tips help:
  • For some crazy reason, Legato is OFF on a bunch of the presets.   Turn LEGATO ON for hammerons, etc.   
  • For some crazier reason, Portamento is ON for a bunch of the presets, including the PIANOs! This seems to eat away at the attack, it adds a delay in new note triggering.   Turn PORTAMENTO OFF if you're trying to do hammerons on your piano voices....   


Hope this helps,

Shawn
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Filialen

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 12:07:06 AM »

Thx, Shawn. Great tips!
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FrankG

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 04:55:10 AM »

Hey ShawnB!!!

Thanks for the detailled response!!!

I've just read thru it once, but will take down the key points and give them a try...

Specifically the Legato / Portamanto variables....

I'm less than comfortable with the TVF/TVA/LFO settings... As I started to tweak them early on and had what I thought were disproportionate swings in the general tone considering they are buried so deep in the Menu Structure (I just assumed the deeper a parameter is buried the more subtle it's function - WRONG!)...

Likewise, I've been tuning in the Vel Sens parameter per SheGuitarPlayer, and it has made a marked improvement...

I'm a bit freaked though over this whole GR-20 to GR-55 transition, as I have my busker's permit for Ottawa's Byward Market, and I only have a few weeks to spit & polish my sets before the season gets into full swing.
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Tukso

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2012, 10:21:19 PM »

A couple of other specific suggestions on playing triplets via hammerons.  I've had the same issue, and I KNOW these tips help:
  • For some crazy reason, Legato is OFF on a bunch of the presets.   Turn LEGATO ON for hammerons, etc.   
  • For some crazier reason, Portamento is ON for a bunch of the presets, including the PIANOs! This seems to eat away at the attack, it adds a delay in new note triggering.   Turn PORTAMENTO OFF if you're trying to do hammerons on your piano voices....   


I can't seem to find where Legato and Portamento parameters can be adjusted. Any directions to their locations on GG55 would be greatly appreciated
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shawnb

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2012, 12:35:49 AM »

I can't seem to find where Legato and Portamento parameters can be adjusted. Any directions to their locations on GG55 would be greatly appreciated

These are on the PCM tone detailed settings.  You have to scroll down a bit to get there. 

Note that legato only works if you have chromatic on.   

I have not been able to reproduce my piano/portamento concerns recently.  IIRC, the 'TONE' setting for Portamento SW added a brief portamento for some voices, and I saw better behavior by simply turning it off.   I don't know if one of the firmware upgrades fixed this or if I was initially mistaken.   Since this, I always use an explicit ON or OFF instead of TONE, because I cannot see what they've done with "TONE". 

If having issues finding the PCM settings, let me know & I'll give you a step-by-step.  It's also found on page 24 of the manual, under "Editing a Tone (Detailed Settings)". 

I've compiled some notes on how to do your setups & PCM settings that affect tracking here:
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6972.0

Hope this helps,
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 12:38:55 AM by shawnb »
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Tukso

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 05:22:34 AM »

thank you shawnb
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Cricket

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Re: GR-20 "Play Feel" vs GR-55 "Nuance"
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 06:05:01 AM »

@FrankG

Definitely read Shawnb's extremely detailed and well-thought out tips on setup linked above.  Do that first.

Then, make certain you have the latest update v 1.5.  This helps the drum sounds.  Don't forget that you can use alt tuning with drum patches to (somewhat) remap where the tones are located on your fretboard.  Sometimes, putting certain problem tones on a plain string improves tracking.

In addition, you can use the GK set feature to have different velocity settings on certain patches.  The obvious use is for using the 55 with more than one guitar; however, I have used this feature on my piano sounds with success.   Just transfer all your settings to a second GK set, adjust the velocity cut and dynamics to your liking, and save that set to your piano patches.

Hope some of this helps.  Piano and drums are both problem sounds on the 55 but they CAN be tamed.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 06:24:51 PM by Cricket »
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