Author Topic: New ATG Guitar Build  (Read 947 times)

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Offline GuitarBuilder

New ATG Guitar Build
« on: March 28, 2017, 07:05:12 PM »
I used a Warmoth roasted Swamp Ash body with Maple neck. The installation was tricky - don't attempt this unless you have some luthier and woodworking skills!
I still have to work out the power source; my original plan to use the Fishman Fluence battery failed, so I need to add a battery box instead. Otherwise, it works fine; it's nice to have the two encoders on the guitar so I don't have to mess with fret control!





A Warmoth Roasted Swamp Ash body. Tape marks for pick guard edge


Cavity routed for ATG DSP board


It fits!


Application of conductive paint to all cavities


Ready for electronics


Marking and installing hex pickup


Test fitting finished pick guard, Wilkinson tremolo, and output jack


Hole for 8-pin MIDI jack


Test fitting MIDI jack


Test fitting Fishman Fluence battery pack (this is before I concluded that it could not supply enough current for the ATG)


After True-Oil finish. MIDI wiring and battery cable are installed


Output and 8-pin MIDI jacks installed


Pick guard and DSP board wired up and ready! Note the single wire connectors


The big moment - will it all fit right?


It was tight, but everything fit


Battery connection and ground in the tremolo cavity


Warmoth Birdseye Maple neck attached. All hardware is black!


Tuner double pin holes drilled using StewMac template tool


Schaller M6 locking tuners installed


Love these tuners!


Top of the neck showing Birdseye Maple fingerboard


Close-up of controls. Note the two encoders between volume (top) and tone (bottom). I designed custom dials for each encoder


Sounds great!  The two encoders greatly improve on the AT-200.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 04:49:46 PM by GuitarBuilder »

Offline cags12

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 09:03:32 AM »

I still have to work out the power source; my original plan to use the Fishman Fluence battery failed, so I need to add a battery box instead. Otherwise, it works fine; it's nice to have the two encoders on the guitar so I don't have to mess with fret control!

Test fitting Fishman Fluence battery pack (this is before I concluded that it could not supply enough current for the ATG)


Very nice build! I am still working on my own one.

I was myself thinking on using Fishman's battery pack. Did you determine how many mA the DSP4 needs? Also how much does the Fishman provide?

Offline whippinpost91850

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2017, 11:23:59 AM »
Looks great!  I gotta figure out the time to build mine.   Gotta mount the single coil in the center of my SG synth guitar first though

Offline GuitarBuilder

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2017, 11:35:06 AM »
Very nice build! I am still working on my own one.

I was myself thinking on using Fishman's battery pack. Did you determine how many mA the DSP4 needs? Also how much does the Fishman provide?

I measured the current draw for the ATG fully wired pickguard to be about 250mA (using the standard AA battery pack).  According to Fishman Tech Support, the Fluence battery pack is limited to 10mA for short circuit protection.  It's too bad, because the 3.7V LiPo battery inside is rated at 1500mAh.  I don't have the energy or desire to hack their charge/protection circuitry, so I will either route the body for the Antares battery or develop my own LiPo solution on the tremolo cavity.

Offline GuitarBuilder

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2017, 11:36:01 AM »
Looks great!  I gotta figure out the time to build mine.   Gotta mount the single coil in the center of my SG synth guitar first though

Be prepared for some serious woodworking and wiring!

Offline whippinpost91850

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2017, 11:41:30 AM »
No problem. I'll probably hook up my overarm router, before I start that project.  ;D

Offline GuitarBuilder

Fishman Fluence Battery Hack
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 03:29:48 PM »
As I noted earlier in this thread, my original plan to use a Fishman Fluence battery pack to power the Antares ATG luthier kit failed miserably due to the unpublished 10mA cutoff designed into the Fluence for short protection.  The ATG needs at least 25x that current!

I considered many options, including an easy one: get an external battery and glue/velcro to the Strat tremolo back plate - done!  I did so with this battery:


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EKXR67M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I fabricated a USB power adapter; charging the pack is simple via a mini-USB on the side.  It works very well and lasts a very long time (5000 mAh), but is uncomfortable because it sticks out quite a bit from the back of the guitar.  However, this may not deter some and it's therefore a low-effort option.

I still liked the Fishman Fluence form factor, so I decided to hack it.  Inside is a 3.7V 1500 mAh LiPo battery and a small circuit board for charging, boosting the voltage to 9V, and overcurrent protection.  The board would not be easy to modify so a replacement was found at Adafruit:


https://www.adafruit.com/product/2465

This board boosts the voltage to 5V and is capable of delivering a massive 1000mA.  It also has all connections conveniently broken out on the side of the board.  I needed a micro-USB connector at 90 degrees to the board, which was accomplished using this breakout board and a 90 degree header:


https://www.adafruit.com/product/1833  (the header shown is the one that comes in the kit; replace it with a 90 degree version)

Lastly, I added a small switch to be able to turn off the booster in order to conserve power; while it draws a minimal amount of current when idle, this will ensure zero draw when storing the guitar:


https://www.adafruit.com/product/805

I replaced the Fishman battery with a larger capacity, 2500 mAh LiPo:


https://www.adafruit.com/product/328

Any larger than this would be too thick and defeat the whole purpose of using the Fishman battery case.  The assembly before fitting into the case looks like this:




The battery was attached to the case using Goop (which makes it removable); the circuit board was mounted using 4 screws and stand-offs:



The most difficult part was cutting the case for access to the micro-USB and switch.  I applied insulation to the back of the board and battery and mounted it to the tremolo cavity.  Overall, it is about half as thick as the first solution and looks a lot cleaner.

If I had to make more of these, I'd like to explore 3D printing the case for a more professional look.  If any members would like to assist with that, I would be very grateful.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 10:45:52 AM by admsustainiac »

Offline whippinpost91850

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 04:03:11 PM »
This is very cool... I'm getting ready to do a luthier kit install in my custom synth guitar. This will a nice option for power

Offline cags12

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2017, 07:45:48 AM »
This is great, I am considering doing the same but with the Universal battery pack form factor or style directly on the electronics back plate of a PRS guitar.

I wonder if instead of taking the input power from the mini USB connector it can somehow be taken from the MIDI connector and use the AT200B as the power source. I know it is 9v but perhaps something can be workout.

Have you study that possibility.

Offline GuitarBuilder

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2017, 03:46:44 PM »
This is great, I am considering doing the same but with the Universal battery pack form factor or style directly on the electronics back plate of a PRS guitar.

I wonder if instead of taking the input power from the mini USB connector it can somehow be taken from the MIDI connector and use the AT200B as the power source. I know it is 9v but perhaps something can be workout.

Have you study that possibility.

Yes, when you plug in the 8-pin MIDI connector and connect to the AT-200B it will turn off the battery and power the electronics directly.  One thing to keep in mind is that the ATG Luthier Kit does not connect the guitar output to the AT-200B like the Peavey AT-200 does.  Antares quotes the reason to be excessive noise on the audio line caused by MIDI signals.  So now you need to run two cables from the guitar!  I decided it made more sense to use the battery and reserve the MIDI connection for programming only (I got the 2 encoder version just so I could control the guitar without an iPad).

Offline Elantric

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2017, 03:49:49 PM »
Use a custom cable avoids the noise


I use Mogami 4channel snake cable

Quote
Yes, when you plug in the 8-pin MIDI connector and connect to the AT-200B it will turn off the battery and power the electronics directly.  One thing to keep in mind is that the ATG Luthier Kit does not connect the guitar output to the AT-200B like the Peavey AT-200 does.  Antares quotes the reason to be excessive noise on the audio line caused by MIDI signals.  So now you need to run two cables from the guitar!  I decided it made more sense to use the battery and reserve the MIDI connection for programming only (I got the 2 encoder version just so I could control the guitar without an iPad).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 03:52:10 PM by Elantric »

Offline cags12

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2017, 05:01:25 AM »
Yes, when you plug in the 8-pin MIDI connector and connect to the AT-200B it will turn off the battery and power the electronics directly.  One thing to keep in mind is that the ATG Luthier Kit does not connect the guitar output to the AT-200B like the Peavey AT-200 does.  Antares quotes the reason to be excessive noise on the audio line caused by MIDI signals.  So now you need to run two cables from the guitar!  I decided it made more sense to use the battery and reserve the MIDI connection for programming only (I got the 2 encoder version just so I could control the guitar without an iPad).

Hi, I am aware of all of this. I actually meant if something can be worked out so the input of the Charger/Booster instead of coming from an external 5v USB cable, would come from the 9v input from the midi cable so the battery can get charged when using the AT200B. I know something would be needed to step down the voltage.

It would be great if the DSP board could charge batteries directly but I guess it is hardware impossible with what is on it right now.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 05:16:16 AM by cags12 »

Offline cags12

Re: Fishman Fluence Battery Hack
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2017, 11:00:20 AM »
The board would not be easy to modify so a replacement was found at Adafruit:

https://www.adafruit.com/product/2465

This board boosts the voltage to 5V and is capable of delivering a massive 1000mA.  It also has all connections conveniently broken out on the side of the board.  I needed a micro-USB connector at 90 degrees to the board, which was accomplished using this breakout board and a 90 degree header:

Lastly, I added a small switch to be able to turn off the booster in order to conserve power; while it draws a minimal amount of current when idle, this will ensure zero draw when storing the guitar

Peter - While reading the details of this booster in Adafruit, a question came to mind that I hope you could answer.

Quoting Adafruit:
Quote
- LBO - this is the Low Battery Output. By default it is pulled high to BAT but when the charger detects a low voltage (under 3.2V) the pin will drop down to 0V. You can use this to signal when its time to shut down or alert the user that the battery is low. There is also a red LED connected to this pin.

I understand that the booster uses this control pin (LBO) and red LED to tell the user that the battery is low. However, there is no automatic shutdown of the booster when this happens and the battery will continue draining until the booster gets manually shut down or the battery reaches its own cut-out point of ~2.8V.

Because in our installations we might not be able to have access to the Red LED, I wonder if you have noticed ATG blinking its LED when the booster is also detecting low voltage on the battery?

I'm  not sure (it is not mentioned) if the booster will still be able to provide 5V during this time not letting ATG to detect "low battery".
Do I make sense?

Has this power solution worked fine for you in all situations or have you found little flaws?

Thanks,




Offline cags12

Re: Fishman Fluence Battery Hack
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 03:53:08 PM »
I'm  not sure (it is not mentioned) if the booster will still be able to provide 5V during this time not letting ATG to detect "low battery".

I think I found the answer for the first question, and for anyone who might find this useful:

The datasheet of the TI TPS61090 boost converted states it can provide the 5v even at very low battery power levels of 1.8v. So I guess ATG will never know the battery is low and it will suddenly shutdown when the battery gets shutdown when it reaches its own protection levels.

I will figure out a way of displaying the red led indicator in my project.

Has this power solution worked fine for you in all situations or have you found little flaws?

On this other question. I have read the Powerboost can introduce noise to the audio because of its nature of a switching power supply. I am a bit more concerned on this.

Would you please report is this is an issue for you in your ATG installation?

Thanks again

Offline admsustainiac

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2017, 07:30:57 PM »
FWIW - the Fluence battery packs output 9VDC (not 5VDC)
https://www.fishman.com/products/series/fluence/universal-rechargeable-battery-pack/

https://www.fishman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Fluence-Battery-Pack-User-Guide.pdf
The universal power solution for Fishman Fluence pickups, these lithium-ion packs require no modification of your guitar, and can also be used to power other on-board 9-volt pickups and accessories. Featuring a current capacity similar to a premium 9-volt alkaline battery, this battery pack is rechargeable via a standard mini-USB cable. The cable and charger are included in the box.
LED indicators let you know when the battery pack is “full”, and when it’s time to recharge. Complete recharge time from “empty” is 3 hours or less, and a full charge offers weeks, not hours, of playing time between charges (depending on load).
Fishman Fluence Rechargeable Battery Packs Include:
Connection wire
USB cable
Micro-USB cable
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 07:34:23 PM by admsustainiac »

Offline cags12

Re: Fishman Fluence Battery Hack
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 07:32:02 AM »
As I noted earlier in this thread, my original plan to use a Fishman Fluence battery pack to power the Antares ATG luthier kit failed miserably due to the unpublished 10mA cutoff designed into the Fluence for short protection.  The ATG needs at least 25x that current!
FWIW - the Fluence battery packs output 9VDC (not 5VDC)

As previously reported by GuitarBuilder and also I re-verified myself with Fishman support. There is a limit of 10mA which would not be suitable for ATG. Hence I am following Peter's lead on this but I had those questions I posted earlier.

Quote of an email received form Fishman support.
"10ma is our listed maximum draw to produce 9v. At some point past 10ma you will get into the short circuit protection, turning the battery off. As you go beyond 10, you will start to have voltage sag. for instance, at 15 ma draw, you may get only 8v."


Offline admsustainiac

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2017, 10:16:47 AM »
These work for custom installs

I'm working with a pair of 3.7VDC 18650 LI-Ion batteries, and use boost converter below to achieve 9VDC or 12VDC or 18VDC , etc
https://www.amazon.com/TLP-2000-Tenergy-Universal-Charger-3-7V-14-8V/dp/B001BEXDRQ/ref=pd_bxgy_23_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B001BEXDRQ&pd_rd_r=NGDVGTGYMMHG2WWPMZ69&pd_rd_w=rPble&pd_rd_wg=QVHfQ&psc=1&refRID=NGDVGTGYMMHG2WWPMZ69



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XWSV89D/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Good performance
DSN6009 is a good-performance 400KHz 4A switch currency step-up boost module. This module XL6009E1 is coming with the 3rd generation high-frequency switch technology as the core chip, the performance is much higher than LM2577.

With mounting holes
There are two mounting holes on the diagonal side, the holes are 0.139 inches/ 3.53 mm, it is a good efficiency non-isolated boost module.

Specifications
DSN6009 booster module
Nature of the module: unfenced step-up (Boost)
Rectifying way: synchronous rectifier
Input range: 3 V to 32 V
Output range: 5 V to 35 V
Input current 4 A (maximum), no-load 18 mA (5 V input, 8 V output, no-load less than 18 mA. The higher the voltage, the greater the no-load current)
Conversion efficiency: < 94 % (the greater the pressure difference, the lower the efficiency)
Switching frequency: 400 KHZ
Output ripple: 50 mV (the higher the voltage, current, the ripple is larger)
Load regulation: plus or minus 0.5%
Voltage regulation: plus or minus 0.5%
Working temperature: - 40 ℃ to + 85 ℃
Overall dimensions: 43 mm x 21 mm to 14 mm (length x width x height)

Attention: do not plug this booster to your project before adjusting the potentiometer.

Package includes:
5 x DC-DC Step-up module
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 10:22:05 AM by admsustainiac »

Offline cags12

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2017, 10:28:25 AM »
These work for custom installs

(Image removed from quote.)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XWSV89D/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Thank you mate - I have spent 2 days looking for alternatives. I kind of discarded the boostter option until hearing back from Peter and focused on a 7.4v battery pack. I have found some nice options but the convenience of USB charging and the possibility of load sharing of those boost/chargers makes me still want to go the booster option.

Would you know if these are more immune to noise? By reading (with my limited knowledge) it seems there is no filtering or fancy circuitry for this. Ahh and it is not a charger either :(

Offline cags12

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2017, 10:34:08 AM »
Oh just saw you edited your comment with the Tenergy battery pack.. That is exactly one of the option I am considering if going high voltage and no booster.

I am even more interested on this RC battery pack with built it charger
https://www.spektrumrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPMA9602




I can just remove the case and install nicely inside the guitar.

Offline admsustainiac

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2017, 10:47:44 AM »
Oh just saw you edited your comment with the Tenergy battery pack.. That is exactly one of the option I am considering if going high voltage and no booster.

I am even more interested on this RC battery pack with built it charger
https://www.spektrumrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPMA9602

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

I can just remove the case and install nicely inside the guitar.

Very Nice Find!!
https://www.amazon.com/Spektrum-2000-MAh-DX7G2-Battery/dp/B00LMJI34S
I found the lost photobucket pic links and updated GuitarBuiilders post too
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=20540.msg149141#msg149141
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 10:49:50 AM by admsustainiac »

Offline cags12

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2017, 10:53:47 AM »
Very Nice Find!!

I found the lost photobucket pic links and updated GuitarBuiilders post too
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=20540.msg149141#msg149141

Cool, he is lost in action lol, I am very looking forward for his input on the noise or not of the booster.

Yeah, it was a nice find, the built in charger is so handy and little foot print.

I want to pair it with Panasonic high storage/performance cells 3400mAh.

https://www.maxxpacks.com/product_info.php?cPath=174_416&products_id=3429&osCsid=3vsap39ojrio649ecb0fmekll4


Another find are these bike purposed batteries.
http://enerprof.de/product-category/batteries/2s-batteries/

Offline GuitarBuilder

Re: Fishman Fluence Battery Hack
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2017, 10:57:06 AM »
Peter - While reading the details of this booster in Adafruit, a question came to mind that I hope you could answer.

Quoting Adafruit:
I understand that the booster uses this control pin (LBO) and red LED to tell the user that the battery is low. However, there is no automatic shutdown of the booster when this happens and the battery will continue draining until the booster gets manually shut down or the battery reaches its own cut-out point of ~2.8V.

Because in our installations we might not be able to have access to the Red LED, I wonder if you have noticed ATG blinking its LED when the booster is also detecting low voltage on the battery?

I'm  not sure (it is not mentioned) if the booster will still be able to provide 5V during this time not letting ATG to detect "low battery".
Do I make sense?

Has this power solution worked fine for you in all situations or have you found little flaws?

Thanks,

I had a small hole in the cover so I could see the LED on the back of the guitar.  I did not let the battery go low enough to see if the ATG would detect low battery, so I'm afraid I can't answer that.

In time I noticed a faint noise on the audio output, which I traced to the power booster circuitry.  I have since removed this solution and installed a Li-Ion 9V battery in the tremolo spring cavity.  No more noise!

Offline cags12

Re: Fishman Fluence Battery Hack
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2017, 11:02:20 AM »
I had a small hole in the cover so I could see the LED on the back of the guitar.  I did not let the battery go low enough to see if the ATG would detect low battery, so I'm afraid I can't answer that.

In time I noticed a faint noise on the audio output, which I traced to the power booster circuitry.  I have since removed this solution and installed a Li-Ion 9V battery in the tremolo spring cavity.  No more noise!

Thank you for confirming! exactly what I was afraid of. I think I will go the 7.4v option.

Just so you know, Adafruit's support directed me to this post to creating a filtering circuitry to mitigate this issue. In case you want to try and/or save your booster.

https://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=76286&p=386912

That will start trimming noise at about 10Hz, and will roll off at about 90db (30,000:1) per decade. The usual "don't care any more" point is around -120db (million-to-one), which will happen somewhere near 200Hz.

Offline Elantric

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2017, 11:47:37 AM »
Cool, he is lost in action lol, I am very looking forward for his input on the noise or not of the booster.

Yeah, it was a nice find, the built in charger is so handy and little foot print.

I want to pair it with Panasonic high storage/performance cells 3400mAh.

https://www.maxxpacks.com/product_info.php?cPath=174_416&products_id=3429&osCsid=3vsap39ojrio649ecb0fmekll4
(Image removed from quote.)

Another find are these bike purposed batteries.
http://enerprof.de/product-category/batteries/2s-batteries/

IHMO drill a tube in the guitar body and use three 18650 cells (3.7V ea) in series  = 11.1VDC

Use the same strategy as the Rolf Spuler Paradise Guitars did with AA cells



but go bigger with  18650 cells

https://www.amazon.com/LIYUDL-Mobile-Battery-Charger-Adapter/dp/B0711FR3RV/ref=sr_1_4?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1503524738&sr=1-4&keywords=Portable+Charger+Power+Bank+with+9v+Output



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0711NSNQL/ref=psdc_7073960011_t4_B01L77JXTS
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 03:50:07 PM by Elantric »

Offline cags12

Re: New ATG Guitar Build
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2017, 11:54:46 AM »
IHMO drill a tube in the guitar body and use three 18650 cells (3.7V ea) in series  = 11.1VDC
Use the same strategy as the Rolf Spuler Paradise Guitars did with AA cells ( see battery "cap" on far right)


(Image removed from quote.)
but go bigger with  18650 cells

Well, that is exactly what I am trying to avoid "drilling a hole in the guitar". I will show the result on this forum when ready :)

And yes, I am not looking at anything but 18650 cells. My previous post shows a protected and balanced battery pack that uses them. 3400mAh of massive power with two cells. If I can fit it I would go 6800mAh in a 2 Series 2 Parallel arrange.