ROLAND - Internal GK-KIT-GT3 Installation questions

Started by chipstar, January 30, 2008, 01:40:21 PM

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chipstar

Hey Guys,
I'm in the process of replacing the standard chrome GK-3 toggle switch that comes with internal kit with a black one to match my guitar. Well, I'd like to verify that this switch is a on/on/on switch. I believe it is from my experience of playing the guitar thus far but I'd like to be certain since there are several versions of the switch such as on/off/on etc. Thoughts please?

later,
Chipstar

Elantric

#1
GK-KIT-GT3

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GKKITGT3--roland-gk-kit-for-guitar


https://www.thomannmusic.com/roland_gk3kit_gitarre.htm




Buy the kit from Andertons UK for $130
https://www.andertons.co.uk/roland-gk3-internal-pickup-kit-%28for-use-with-roland-guitar-synths%29-gkkitgt3

The German GK-KIT-GT3 Instructions are far more detailed than anything else provided from Roland US  - get the PDF  here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133.0;attach=16610


The German GK-KIT-GT3 Instructions are far more detailed than anything else provided from Roland  - get the PDF  here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133.0;attach=16610

For the Synth / Mix / Guitar  switch:

On  - Off  - On

is the type you need.


Also  when doing custom installs, I like to swap the S1 and S2 switches with a Godin LGXT style  single spring loaded toggle momentary switch switch called type:

(on) - off - (on)

The Ibanez RG1520G uses this type control arrangement.


On stock GK-KIT-GT3 Installs, there is a resulting tone loss in stock mag pickups.
Avoid that by using the  Fender Roland Ready/GC-1 method with a switching Switchcraft 12A jack to obtain "true bypass" with improved tone when not using the GK 13 cable



FENDER GC-1 SWITCHING OUTPUT JACK WIRING
 

GC-1 schematic is here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133.0;attach=17948
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73.0


Many prefer to reverse wire the GK hex pickup , to accommodate mounting backwards
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3365.0





dead_lizard

#2
Likewise.

And replace the mix switch with one that goes off-off-off!!!! You can control this parameter from the VG!!!!

Oh well, i guess people just like to include all the switches they can. If Roland had included an On/Off switch in the circuit board, I still wouldn't need it if you know what I mean.


$0.02

mos6507

Quote from: dead_lizard on January 30, 2008, 03:33:13 PM
And replace the mix switch with one that goes off-off-off!!!! You can control this parameter from the VG!!!!

Could you elaborate?
Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

Elantric

#4
He means  - Eliminate it!



Regarding the "Guitar/Mix/GK(Synth) Switch:   read this thread
GK-3's unique Pin 9 functionality explained
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5259.0

while reveals the mysteries of how the GK-3 employs Pin #9 to determine the position of this three way switch and  transmit different values for MIDI CC#7 (Channel Volume) based upon the current position of the three way "Guitar/Mix/GK(Synth) Switch.

chipstar

#5
I'm going to have to concur with mos. That doesn't make sense. The way that mine is configured it functions in two different ways depending on the way that the GK control is set under System. When the GK control is set to off it controls certain functions and when the GK control is set to On or Auto it has another set of functions. I would lose functionality by removing it. Furthermore, I have a hole drilled into my pickguard so I'm not going to just put a piece of duct tape over it. And one more thought, just because a function may exist in the VG-99 doesn't mean that it shouldn't be on the guitar. Should I remove the S1 and S2 just because I can change patches from the FC300 and the VG-99 console? Perhaps I should sell my FC300. I'm just going to let the Roland tech that worked on the guitar handle this.

later,
Chipstar

dead_lizard

Well, I removed SW2 because I realised a toggle switch can achieve the same things. If you've got a hole in your pickguard, then by all means fill it. I just don't like having redundant controls on my guitar.
Can you elaborate on how your guitar functions differently with the mix switch in different positions?
Basically I see the mix switch as just turning one parameter out of hundreds from 1 to 120. In theory, yes I could rig up a switch for each parameter in the manual, but it sort of defeats the purpose of having assignable controls on my guitar. For instance, the toggle switch does not always have to be a toggle switch. Sometimes I assign my GK vol to bend strings or to filter my signal. I can even set up my GK vol to act as a better alternative to the mix switch: a blend pot.

Horses for courses, I guess.

mos6507

The MIX switch is not assignable in the VG-99.  In fact the way it's wired I'm not sure it could be (although the GK3 may make it possible).  Only the S1/S2 and volume are assignable.

Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

chipstar

We need a 'Reply to' option on this site. I can't tell to whom mos is responding. Mos, if you are replying to me, I haven't assigned any functions to this mini-toggle. It simply has a total of 6 functions that it enables depending on its postion and the configuration of the GK control under System. I explained it on another forum and I think it would be best for me to paste that explanation here. I need to go find it and then I will reply back after I finish my drum, keyboard and guitar practice today.

later,
Chipstar

chipstar

Alright guys, I've got the results of my tests to share with you on this. They are interest to me. Perhaps you can make sense of it.

I used the following gear:

Custom American Strat HH with internal GK-3
VG-99
Boss GT-Pro (1/4 inch from Strat running into it)
EMU 1820M
Hex key to test each pickup for each test to verify activity

GK Control Off: (Purely effects processor)

Down: 1/4 inch running into GT-Pro and Seymour Duncans running out of 13 pin into VG99

Middle: 1/4 inch running into GT-Pro and Seymour Duncans running out of 13 pin into VG99

Up: 13 Pin output disabled - 1/4 inch output only (acts as kill switch if no 1/4 inch cable connected)

These results are not terribly shocking but the results below were a little unusual.


GK Control On:

Down: 1/4 inch output on - GK-3 enabled and VG 99 with modeling enabled

Middle: 1/4 inch output on had a gain and treble boost/texture increase with GK-3 enabled and VG 99 with modeling enabled. This was tested by muting VG-99 channel on the EMU Patchmix as well as turning VG volume knob all the way down in a seperate test. The difference can be heard and seen on 1/4 inch channel on the EMU Patchmix only. When reversing the test by muting 1/4 inch Patchmix channel or turning the 1/4 volume all the way down, the toggle switch has no effect on the signal from the GK-3 to the VG-99 as it was always on.

Up: 1/4 inch output on - GK-3 enabled and VG 99 with modeling enabled

As it relates to the middle configuration, I tried this with every kind of texture contrast that I could. For example, an acoustic on the VG-99 with Fuzz Wah on the GT-Pro, then reversing test. I tried detunings on VG-99 with Acoustic models on the GT-Pro. Every test was the same, the middle position always had an effect on the 1/4 inch output not the 13 pin output. It wasn't like a doubling of the signal but there was change in the texture of the sound which was like using a BBE processor or something similar.

Needless to say, these were not the results that I expected based on the tests that I ran through with the Roland tech the day I got my guitar back but it is pretty odd. I'd must say that I like the middle position even though I don't have the Synth/Mix/Guitar setup referred to below.

What do you guys think about this?

later,
Chipstar

chipstar

Alright, I spoke with the Roland tech about this. He seems to think that even with the 13 pin connection muted that they way he has the setup configured that the Seymour Duncans are running through the mod board and then out to the 1/4 inch jack so there is a gain/signal/texture tweak that is occuring in all of this hence the change in the sound. I really like it. The center position is the the way to go for me.

later,
Chipstar

fredo

Has anyone aleady installed an internal GK-KIT on a Les Paul type guitar (I mean with Tune-O-Matic bridge).
I just ordered one and I'm concerned about the huge distance between the guitar body and the strings compared to a Strat-like guitar (you know the angled neck thing).
Does the GK-KIT GT3 come with a Gibson-specific mounting plate like the GK-3 ?
Does Roland provide some kind of a chock to compensate the difference between Strats and Gibsons ?

chipstar

Hey Fredo,
I have not done this install on a Les Paul but I had it done on a Strat. There is no adapter provided for your Gibson. You have the option to tape the pickup down or you can screw it into the body. I'm not a fan of the curvature of the GK-3. It's supposed to help with archtop guitars but it puts my E strings so far away from the pickup that I have crosstalk at times. The pickup does have an adjustment screw that allows you to adjust the height of the 6 magnets but the issue that you will see is that when you get the outer magnets to a reasonable height, the center magnets are so high that they touch the G and D strings. I think that a flat pickup would have been a much better idea or at least having a Fender or Gibson version of the kit instead of trying to be 'all things to all people.' Sustainiac mentioned a missing part from the GK Kit that is supposed to bend the pickup (or something like that) but as rigid as this thing is I don't know how it's possible. Sus... If you're out there, please explain this. Now I have have seen a Fender version of the GK-3 that is flat and spring mounted like a typical analog pickup but I suspect this is the version that goes into the new VG Strats not to be confused with the Roland Ready Strats. It would be nice if I had access to this version so I could get the proper distance between all the strings. It is my belief from my experience with Roland and Fender that they want this process to be dissuasive hence the missing part and support departments that won't help so that you will by a VG or Roland Ready Strat.

later,
Chipstar

fredo

Hi Chipstar,
Thanx for the reply.
My understanding is that the pickup screw is there to fit the fingerboard's radius (cf. ftp://ftp.roland.co.uk/ProductSupport/manuals/GK-3_OM.pdf page 8 ).
The minimal radius is 184mm (when the screw is turned fully clockwise). The max is 400mm.
You should not use this screw to adjust the overall pickup/string distance.
Maybe the missing part mentioned by Sustainiac is the adjustment template specified in this document (not provided with GK-KIT since it is suposed to be mounted by a luthier I think...).
Fred.

philflood

You can sometimes pick up the bridge mounting bracket for the GK KIT pickup element on E-Bay. Guys who buy the GK-3 for use on their strat type guitars don't need them. Typical price is about $20, and it results in the proper pickup to string spacing on a Les Paul. Try searching for GK mount.

fredo

#15
Hi there,
Just finished installing the GK-Kit on my Hagstrom Ultra Swede.
As I thought I had to place an about 10mm thick chock between the guitar body and the GK pickup.
I used a simple piece of wood and painted it black.
The most difficult part was to carve the wood to match the guitar body.
The GK pickup cable passes through a hole drilled in the standard bridge pickup plastic cover, and then follows the same path as the original pickup wires.
I had to cut the GK pickup's pin which was to wide to let me pass the cable through the holes. Once the cables passed, I soldered the pin back in place.
I placed an "on off on" switch for S1/S2, and replaced the original tone control by the GK-Volume.
Sorry I did not took some pics during the installation...
Here is the finished guitar.
As you can see on the pics, the GK pickup is taking quite some place on the right side of the low E string. And as it rises at some 15 mm above the guitar body, it can bother the left hand sometimes...
I just don't get why Roland made it that wide and why they do not put the "extra width" needed for the cable to go out on the other side. It would be much less bothering. Roland, if you ear me !...
Fredo.






philflood

I finally got my C-55 back from my luthier yesterday. It looks like the third time is indeed the charm. Two prior attempts at completing the installation using just Roland's instructions resulted in some strange buggy behavior. The primary issues revolved around the misfunctioning of the S1/S2 switch. We finally figured out that the thing worked great on the bench when it was not enclosed in the installation, but as soon as everything was placed in the body cavities, weird behavior started. It was as if the S1/S2 was stuck in the on position. Eventually we tracked the problem to the 13-pin connector. When the 13pin connector was attached to a standard plate that followed the body's curvature and was screwed to the body, the buggy behavior would start. As soon as we pulled the connector from the body, releasing whatever pressure it was under, the buggy behavior would cease. Eventually the solution became one of custom fashioning a thicker mounting plate, actually out of hard rubber, that allows the 13-pin connector  to be attached to it with less curvature that of the body itself. That is, the radius where the plate attaches is a greater radius than the curve of the body.  Anyhow, all now appears well, and I will post pics in the next few days.  :)

For those of you who might be wondering why I didn't just get factory Brian Moore 13-pin set-up, well, I might have, but the Custom Shop ceased operations. And, I actually prefer the Roland pickup and don't really care for the pseudo-acoustic tone that one gets from a Piezo on a solid body guitar.

antcinq

Thanks to Merch I am one large step closer to jumping into the VG-99 universe (he helped me understand the FC300 and stomp box features of the VG-99). 

My question now is how do people feel about the external or internal Gk-3?  Should I consider another type of pickup?

My inclination is for the GK-3 internal model as it seems easier for set up, fitting in my case, putting on a guitar stand, etc.  However, I am concerned about losing features, etc. 

The guitar will be a high end american strat that I'll never sell, so I don't care about "value" or drilling holes.  I do care about "simplicity", the ability to "touch knobs" while playing, etc.  Also, I have a local guitar maker that does all of my work and I trust him with my instruments.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Tony
www.anthonycinquini.com

telengard

Quote from:  antcinq on April 14, 2008, 10:04:56 AM
Thanks to Merch I am one large step closer to jumping into the VG-99 universe (he helped me understand the FC300 and stomp box features of the VG-99). 

My question now is how do people feel about the external or internal Gk-3?  Should I consider another type of pickup?

My inclination is for the GK-3 internal model as it seems easier for set up, fitting in my case, putting on a guitar stand, etc.  However, I am concerned about losing features, etc. 

The guitar will be a high end american strat that I'll never sell, so I don't care about "value" or drilling holes.  I do care about "simplicity", the ability to "touch knobs" while playing, etc.  Also, I have a local guitar maker that does all of my work and I trust him with my instruments.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Tony
www.anthonycinquini.com

I have both and I like having the internal better but it was a *lot* more work, for me at least.  If I had to do it again I'd probably have it professionally installed.  I've re-done my pickguard to make it look better (original was a real hack job).  The one thing I didn't do such a great job with was the input jack faceplate.  It was hard to get the crews to go in straight.

My re-do I'm using a push/pull pot and a resistor so I can use the strat volume for the GK volume.  The extra volume know was really getting in my way where I had it.  I'm also using a momentary toggle for the S1/S2 rather than the included switches.

Since you have someone you trust I would recommend an installed one as long as you are OK with the modifications as you mentioned.  I have my internal in a strat also and I didn't have to do too much to the body itself other than the routing for the input jack and 2 holes for the pickup as well as a little area under the pickup for the wires to go into the body cavity.  The rest was wiring.

As far as losing features, I can't think of any although I'm no expert.  My understanding is they both function the same.

The external I have really isn't too bad.  The GK-3 comes with a nice bracket that involves no screws/tape so it's pretty stable and does no damage to the guitar.  Just looks a little odd.     ;)

~telengard
Still stuck in the 1980s.  My mame cabinet, mini home studio, and 8 bit game room:
www.briansturk.com

philflood

The features with the internal vs. the external are exactly the same. If you go the internal route, you will be altering you strat's pickguard to accomodate a new volume knob, and to add the s/1 and s/2 switch or switches, and also to add the 3 way selector switch. A significant cavity will need to cut into your strat to hold the 13-pin connector and to allow wiring to be connected to it.There will probably be enough room under your pickguard to hold the circuit board for the GK-3-KIT, but, if not, you may need to create a cavity similar to the one found in the Clapton strat which holds the board for its mid boost. I personally prefer the aesthetic appeal of the internal pickup to that off adding an external GK-3. I klnow its an old reference, but it is the one that strikes home with me - adding an external GK-3 to your guitar makes it look like something the Borg got ahold of.

Elantric

#20
I know many do the following:

1) Buy a nice Strat - for the Neck and PUs

2) Buy a used Roland Ready Strat on Ebay

3) take both apart and use the best of all the components to make your "super strat" with internal GK.

4) reassemble left-over parts and resell those as a basic strat.


fredo

#21
Here is my experience about installing an internal GK-Kit : https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=305.0
It has to be easier on a Strat since you will need no chock to setup the pickup. Also the pick-guard will leave you more space to place the pickup cable.
The most difficult part will be the routing for the 13 pin connector...
Anyway you need to be quite handy to do it yourself (woodwork and soldering) otherwise you'll end up with something ugly or not working.
That being said, the GK-Kit is far more comfortable and nice looking that an external GK-3 !
Fredo.

antcinq

Thanks guys....one passing question, does the internal GK-3 or the VG-99 come with the required cable to connect the guitar to the VG-99?  It doesn't appear so based on the propaganda on the internet.

I placed my order today.  Thanks!!!

philflood


antcinq

Thanks guys.  Just placed my order!!!!!!!

Tony
www.anthonycinquini.com