GP-10 - Optimal Osc Synth Tracking Versus FTP?

Started by Rhcole, November 12, 2014, 02:32:11 PM

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Rhcole

Since I have a Fishman Triple Play on my guitar, I don't use the Osc synth except here and there. I got it to track passably with my piezo guitar, but never well.
I'm wondering if those of you who have both the FTP and the GP-10 with good tracking on the Osc synth can compare the tracking between the two under optimal circumstances. I'm considering installing an internal GK on a guitar, and one of the benefits would be possibly better Osc synth tracking.

Your experiences?

Elantric

#1
You must  master and work on your playing technique before you can achieve acceptable GP-10 Dual OSC tracking performance.

The FTP is more forgiving for sloppy players, and provides a lot more play-ability for most guitarists.
 

Above statement is specifically in regards to the GP-10 OSC Synth

other modes on the GP-10 work with lower latency compared to FTP and most modes on the GP-10 work with a broader range of playing techniques compared to FTP. The GP-10 OSC Synth remains the exception.

Rhcole

Hmm Elantric,

Already got THAT level of performance out of the Osc Synth. Thot maybe the GK would be a level better...

Elantric

#3
For me the GP-10 Dual OSC Synth is equally difficult to track without errors when using either 2013 Godin LGX-SA with RMC Piezo Polydrive IV 13 pin system OR 2011 Line6 Tyler Variax with external Roland GK-3. 

in other words, Neither Mag Hex or Piezo Hex PU guitar works "better" for use with the temperamental GP-10 Dual OSC Synth

And yes Ive tried inserting a separate 13 pin Subfilter too  - no change.

mbenigni

QuoteYou must  master and work on your playing technique before you can achieve acceptable GP-10 Dual OSC tracking performance.

This sentence totally needs a "grasshopper" at the end of it.  :D

Spider

Like Elantric wrote, all instruments on GP-10 works faster the its equivalents triggered via MIDI by FTP. It is because it isn't a synth (ok... not true for GR300, wave synth). But Dual OSC is some kind of virtual analog synthesizer and need a lot more (???) of computing power and works more like MIDI VSTi then guitar modeling.

So... nothing new: carful playing or set it to mono mode or chromatic mode. It will work definitely better.

MusicOverGear

IMHO it's harder to set up than it is to play. I had been using the OSC Synth enthusiastically for months before I found settings that really work for me. I get good results with the following parameters:

GK Sens lights up about 3 squares per string
LowVeloCut=6
For poly sounds Chromatic is ON
For a sound where I want to play lines Poly/Mono is either set to MONO or I have an assign that switches it to MONO for lines. (also turn Chromatic OFF)

When I first got the GP-10 I was mainly interested in huge, ripping leads with filter cutoff movement (LOL!) which it tracks a lot better than pads IMHO. I'm pretty happy with how the OSC tracks as a lead mono synth, just playing normally. 

Padding is where the OSC Synth can really let me down. I hold a chord, let go with LH, and it thinks I am sliding down a fret on some strings but not others. My solution is to simply do the articulation with the RH. Also I use sustain like a keyboard player, where I'm not holding notes - just using LH to get the tones ringing, then move my hand to where I want it next while sustaining; I'd say nowadays if I'm padding I've got my foot on the sustain pedal (CTL2 on my patches) 99% of the time. Also I tend to put a longer release on the amp envelope than what is typical for any kind of sustaining patch, which in addition to sounding more awesomer helps to cover any remaining gaps.

I should mention that I earned my bachelor's as a guitar performance major, so for me it didn't feel like an adjustment - more like I noticed what my RH was doing on its own. It took a while to get to where the tracking bugged me, then it took a while to figure out which settings on the GP-10 worked best for me, then it took a while to get used to playing pad patches, so none of it seemed like a radical adjustment to me. I think everyone is going to have unique experience on this.

Hmm... now that I think about it I guess I am really working at getting good tracking out of the OSC Synth LOL. Maybe the moral of the story is that you can get used to it.

I do get frustrated with the latency in the mid and low registers. Nowadays I play my key bass patches in the top 1.5 octaves of the guitar, pitched all the way down in OSC, plus pitched down another octave using FX> Pitch Shifter. For hard groove music (e.g. funk) I simply can not lock in anywhere below about G4. I feel like the point at which I get frustrated keeps creeping up the neck. Or maybe it's just that my interest has gone from huge, obnoxious leads (some need for groove) to pads (little need) to bass (imperative).

I think sometime this winter when I'm cooped up indoors I will try FTP and if it seems a lot better I will take a deep breath and figure out how to hack that into my rig. If it weren't for the extra cartage and setup/teardown, I would prefer to program the ES2 synth in Logic over the OSC Synth in the GP-10. For me the real break point would be figuring out how to rebuild my pedalboard with all power supplies onboard, and fit my notebook safely in a gig bag with guitar and pedal board. Tall order but definitely possible. For the moment I'm more attracted to simply using the GP-10 for everything, with all its idiosyncrasies. I'm in no hurry. IMO the OSC synth is very usable. It remains the part of the GP-10 I'm most excited about.

Rhcole

Yeah,

I used to use a MIDI sustain pedal and a switching/volume pedal when working with the MIDI outs of the VG-99 and the GR-55. Those pedals plus careful technique made cantankerous guitar synth playing possible. Even so, long pads and overlapping sustained tones were asking for trouble.

Then I got the FTP and it hasn't been necessary to use any of that stuff. It's not perfect, but it's WAY better.

I'm not sure I want to go back. Love the sound of the Osc synth, but I also loved the sound of the Roland GR-700. It still wasn't fun to play.
I think I will stick with triggering my synths via FTP. If I want to go crazy with real analog synths, the boxes are out there.

jassy

#8
thanks MusicOverGear, for your detailed explanation

Unfortunately everything you have said sounds that the use OSC Synth is relatively problematic, reminds me quite early times of midi guitar, even with my GR55 (internal sounds) I have the sensation that overall I have better feelings that the ones you described (that depends of the sound, as always some respond better than others and sure its a  subjective appreciation).
I and surely all of us wanted something else like an evolution of the gr300, wavesynth etc to something more complex and powerfull from Roland, but although Synth OSC is interesting, in this incarnation it is apparently shaped like any analog synthesizer emulation triggered internally by midi. The problem is that now there are many softsynth of great quality that will surely be well above the OSC synth that can be triggered by FTP or even the GR55, Axon, VG99 that I have.
Sure its not packaged inside and i need to carry a pc. But softsynths like Diva, Zebra and so many others (the list is endless) are an absolute delight and respond wonderfully to the FTP, which I must say is the best today, clearly superior to the GR55 and a bit better than the Axon, so dont seem the OSC Synth will be the argument that would turn me to the GP10.

Rhcole

Jassy, I definitely WAS hoping for a super COSM Osc Synth with dual oscillators and selectable waveforms. The Osc Synth was a letdown from a performance standpoint when I realized what it was. I wanted a next generation COSM synth that would play like a guitar. I tweaked and worked with it as it is and got it to work the best I can. I use it here and there. It's like a special effect for me, not a main course.

BUT, I fell in love with the improved COSM guitars in the GP-10. For me in particular the pitch-shifted guitars are much better than Roland's prior products. Everything is just cleaner and has greater sonic clarity.

Strangely, the Osc Synth, my most anticipated new feature, is an afterthought for me in an otherwise winner of a product.
Maybe there will be a software upgrade or somebody will figure out how to get it to track better.  Maybe.
In the meantime with the FTP all that I lose is having to have it mounted on my 13 pin guitar and adding an extra synth box to my setup. Not a big inconvenience.

pasha811

Sorry for my ignorance. I have refused a used Stratocaster FTP model last week based on the assumption that FTP can drive only MIDI and no audio. However I am now confused by this thread. Does FTP behaves like GK3 in terms of audio? Can I use it to drive VG99 or GP10 Guitar Modelling?

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

QuoteDoes FTP behaves like GK3 in terms of audio? Can I use it to drive VG99 or GP10 Guitar Modelling?

FTP is strictly a Guitar to MIDI controller  - no Audio, and no ability to drive any audio or GK system.

pasha811

Quote from: Elantric on November 14, 2014, 03:13:53 AM
FTP is strictly a Guitar to MIDI controller  - no Audio, and no ability to drive any audio or GK system.

Thanks Elantric. That says it all.

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

MusicOverGear

#13
I made a looping video first thing this AM but it is taking FOREVER to upload. It shows 3 minutes playing 6 OSC Synth patches. Hopefully this will inform people reading this with similar questions regarding the tracking of the OSC Synth. I will post the link when (if?) it ever finishes uploading.

EDIT: Okay it uploaded processing now:


Yikes I could really use another take at that. Oh well - this is about the GP-10 not my ego LOL.

Personally I would rather have ES2 and ESX24 from MainStage (Logic) - as opposed to just the OSC Synth in the GP-10; but to me it seems like it would be an incremental upgrade for a big cost. First, I've got more cartage and setup adding at the very least notebook, PSU, and one cable (e.g. USB cable to GP-10). Then there's building a new pedalboard to accommodate all that. Then there's acquiring a new bag that will fit the new pedalboard plus guitar - or just a case for the pedalboard and switch to e.g. Mono for the guitar and strap that to my back. Then there's reliability. The GP-10 might very plausibly go 40 years with no major maintenance. The old notebook will certainly be dead or cast off within 10 years.

IDK to me it's hassle hassle hassle with very little payoff. I get sounds from the OSC that make me happy and I find no frustrating obstacles to playing those sounds. I.e. there is no problem to solve.

I do feel the gravitational pull of the FTP - new gear tempting me to try it - and throw away hours or days or worse out of my life. But so far I've resisted.

It does scare me that if we all say that the OSC is too hard to use Roland will simply axe it in future releases and include things I don't want. Like a desktop machine with a ribbon controller (WTF?!). What's next - accordion-type bellows? They have proven their ability and willingness to employ incomprehensible perversity - don't tempt them! :)

pasha811

Quote from: MusicOverGear on November 14, 2014, 08:36:01 AM
They have proven their ability and willingness to employ incomprehensible perversity - don't tempt them! :)

MusicOverGear that really made me ROFL!
:-)
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

mbenigni


CodeSmart

Nice vid. So far I've used the GP-10 heavily as a mini GT-10 COSM replacement with a nice set of 12-string sounds/simulations included for my guitar amp. (I use a GR-55 simultanously for PCM organs/pianos to the P.A.). I'm really now going to try to embrace the dual OSC realizing my current GK settings and playing technique might need to adopt. Thanks for the eye-opener!
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Rhcole

#17
Thx MusicOverGear, nice demo.

I got in a bit of (I think) unspoken trouble from a published review of a prior synth product where I included examples of it sputtering and unable to track strumming.
...I wasn't invited back, if you get my drift.

Even pro magazines want to make products look good. Lesson learned. I DO have a review in with a major mag that probably will get published where I am somewhat critical of the product although still positive.

It's important to consider that most product videos play to the item's strengths and carefully step around what it does a bad job with.

My point is, I think it is as important to show what DOESN'T work as what DOES.

As long as you aren't reviewing it and depending on the ad revenues or doing a promo video for the company.  ;)


Elantric

Quote
My point is, I think it is as important to show what DOESN'T work as what DOES.


Agreed - The same product being reviewed awarded 5 stars in USA magazines like EQ, Electronic Musician, Keyboard, Guitar Player mag - yet often had a "2" rating in a UK Mag.


The brutal truth regarding a products strengths and weaknesses takes lots of digging on user forums in todays world.

 

MusicOverGear

I like what tape op Magazine does. They only review products that they recommend. So if there's a hot new piece of gear everyone is really excited about it and it's not in tape op, well that's your review.

MusicOverGear

#20
Okay I didn't hold out for long against the allure of the FTP. I just installed mine and tried it - it's fantastic. Really illuminates the utility of the GP-10 for me. I'm uploading another video now with comparison (290 minutes to go), but here is my conclusion:

EDIT: Finished uploading. Apparently my upload picked up speed as soon as I complained about it LOL


The GP-10 and FTP are nearly perfectly complementary. The GP-10 still beats the pants off schlepping a computer rig for me personally. It is by far the best- and most contemporary-sounding synth of all roland V-Guitar products IMHO, and its synth is totally usable for everything I might do in the near future. I have no problem creating OSC Synth patches that sound good to me and are easy for me to play without tracking errors.

In my opinion - now sharpened by direct comparison with the FTP - the GP-10's weakest point is its USB MIDI tracking. I have made it work for me up to now, but I don't remember ever being excited about playing softsynths with the GP-10 as my MIDI interface. Looking back it seems strange how many things I tracked as audio using the OSC Synth instead of tracking MIDI and making my patches in Logic; that would be more flexible, and that's how real producers work pretty much universally in 2014 - unless you're Chromeo or something - and even they use softsynths when they are writing away from home. I think what happened to me is that I learned synth programming using the GP-10 so it's familiar and comfortable, and I just never liked the feeling of moving over to softsynths. I understand now that that's because of the poor MIDI tracking compared with the GP-10's internal tracking. I.e. the GP-10 tracks acceptably well for me on the internal OSC Synth but not over USB MIDI.

FTP is right on time for me - I'm ready to add more complexity to my patches - and I've already started to gain some momentum with ES2 in Logic. Its functionality has a lot of overlap with Massive, which I believe is the most popular one of this variety. ES2 eclipses the GP-10's simpler OSC Synth but operates on the same principles - just more of everything, more malleability, plus it's integrated in the bigger universe of Logic/Mainstage. 

For internal sounds, there is no contest - the GP-10 is stellar and FTP literally has no internal sounds (wish they had brought the hardware synth to market). For USB MIDI, there is no contest - the FTP is head and shoulders better than the GP-10. Before I tried the FTP I was content to use the GP-10 for USB MIDI but I wasn't excited about using it. When I make a really good OSC Synth patch I will lose an hour or two to just playing it - drifting away in the music. That never happened for me with soft synths - not until today, when I first plugged in the FTP. I lost a chunk of time when I fist sat down with the FTP - just playing old patches in Logic I was already familiar with. It was literally a new experience playing the same old patches. Basically the patches became integral musical voices, where before I was just manipulating them - the difference is that dramatic for me. It's like going from puppetry to dancing. 

It seems the GP-10 is weakest where the FTP is strongest. Or to put it another way - where the GP-10 just starts to falter the FTP comes to the rescue big time. Now I can't see going back. Whenever I want to use softsynths I will definitely reach for the FTP and NOT the GP-10.

If FTP offered any kind of guitar modeling - or even just wireless audio of the old-school guitar pickups - I might think about taking it out, but as it stands it's a non-starter for me as a portable rig. I just don't like cartage or setup. I guess everyone doesn't like that part, but for me it's a deal-breaker for some gigs. I pretty much HAVE to travel light or I just get mentally worn out. I have the smallest computer rack you can get AFAIK - the Gator 2U + Laptop box, can't remember what it's called ... oh yeah just remembered it's called "Studio2Go" LOL - but even that is a PITA. More cartage and less functionality - NO THANK YOU. It's hard to imagine when the FTP will leave my house. But I will use it here every day - no doubt. Can't say I won't get drawn into a computer rig - that probably depends on how good my synth programming gets and how much I think I need those sounds. At the moment, even being on the honeymoon with FTP big time, I can't see FTP influencing my work rig in any way.

So I will use FTP for tracking MIDI with a guitar controller; and GP-10 for just playing a good old school synth - and for everything else. I'm still hopeful about integrating the FTP with my GK rig (looks easy enough but I don't have a good enough reason yet to put in the time), but at the moment I'm just ecstatic that the two systems seem to be good complements. PLUS I only lost maybe a half hour out of my life (installation) trying new gear AND IT PAID OFF IMMEDIATELY. Can't remember the last time something new and tech-y WASN'T a colossal time sink. I sure put in my time adjusting to a V-Guitar rig from tube amps. 

I heartily recommend anyone looking at these two systems to get both. I'm big fan of sticking with gear that works well enough, but after trying the FTP I feel like the GP-10 works plenty well enough as an exciting hardware synth and all-purpose modeler but really not well enough as a USB MIDI interface. IMHO I need both, and I imagine most people with similar interests could benefit from having both.

Elantric

QuoteI might think about taking [Fishman Tripleplay]  out [ to live gigs], but as it stands it's a non-starter for me as a portable rig. I just don't like cartage or setup. I guess everyone doesn't like that part, but for me it's a deal-breaker for some gigs.

Hint:

The FTP USB Receiver plugs straight into the Apple USB Camera Adapter for Ipad, and easily triggers low latency IOS Synth and Samplers on my Ipad Mini, wirelessly. Just feed the Ipad Headphone out the Stereo 3.5mm Aux Input on GP-10!

I own most IOS Synths - and use IK SampleTank for IOS a lot with FTP   

pasha811

#22

GK3 and FTP same guitar... is it possible?
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

QuoteGK3 and FTP same guitar... is it possible?

ShawnB has done it!

Show us your Tripleplay Guitars
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8394.0



pasha811

Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/