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GK-13 Reference Knowledge => GK Piezo Hex (RMC,Ghost,etc) => Topic started by: ztones on July 13, 2009, 07:03:54 PM

Title: Godin LGXT - LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on July 13, 2009, 07:03:54 PM
I have a Godin LGXT.  Yesterday, the LOW E started to sound very muffled in tone (loss of highs) and lower in signal.  THis is only a problem with the piezo output.  The regular magnetics sound fine.  Its still outputting, its not totally dead, but its definitely different from the the other string outputs.  Could it be a bad piezo pickup on that string or is this something else?  Thanks!
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: Brent Flash on July 13, 2009, 07:11:02 PM
Did you make any adjustments to that string or change the string? Sounds like it could be a bad one or the string is not making good contact.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on July 13, 2009, 08:17:41 PM
Thanks for the quick response!  No, I have not changed the strings in the last 2 weeks.  It was fine until yesterday.  I had loosened the string in an effort to move / tap...find some poss cause, but to no avail.  The contact is good.  Is this something that I can replace myself?  Is it even possible to just buy one single piezo pickup? I have never come across this kind of problem in 25 years of playing.  Is there a way to better pinpoint if its the piezo itself of something at the other end of the connection on the circuit board? 
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on July 14, 2009, 08:59:38 PM
Does anyone know where I can get one of the piezo pickups for the GODIN LGXT?  Is this something that can easily be replaced or should it be done professionally only?
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: Elantric on July 15, 2009, 09:07:40 AM
hmm - lets see - perhaps contact Godin? (or RMC Pickups)

The Godin Guitar Company
19420 Avenue Clark-Graham
Baie-D'Urfe Quebec Canada
      H9X 3R8

Tel (514) 457-7977 ext.135
Fax (514) 457-5774

info@godinguitars.com
http://www.godinguitars.com/ (http://www.godinguitars.com/)


RMC Pickups
http://www.rmcpickup.com/ (http://www.rmcpickup.com/)
info@rmcmusic.com

or write us at

RMC Pickup Co.
1739 Addison #15
Berkeley CA 94703
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on July 15, 2009, 08:47:05 PM
"Appreciate" the sarcasm.  As if aftermarket parts by other manufacturers were SOOOO unheard of.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on July 15, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
BTW, Godin has not responded in 2 days.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: big_jan on July 15, 2009, 10:05:28 PM
the kind man at RMC replies to all emails. check him out at e-mail us at info@rmcmusic.com

or write us at

RMC Pickup Co.
1739 Addison #15
Berkeley CA 94703

Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: germanicus on July 17, 2009, 11:17:05 PM
Quote from: ztones on July 15, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
BTW, Godin has not responded in 2 days.

In all likelihood, Godin will tell you to take it to an authorized service center. That was the case when I needed a piezo replaced in my old xtsa. Try contacting authorized dealers and asking if they service Godins. http://www.godinguitars.com/dealersus.htm

It cost me something like 40 bucks or so.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: Elantric on July 18, 2009, 08:52:40 AM
It may be cured simply by verifying the Piezo saddle is at a perfect right angle to the string it supports. During intonation, its possible the saddle can become "tilted" and askew. The Piezo output will be significantly reduced if the saddle becomes tilted, and not responding to the full downward pressure from the vibrating string. Its often cured by taking long needle nose pliers and carefully rotate the saddle 2-3 degrees - while listening for max output.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on August 08, 2009, 12:13:13 PM
Godin finally wrote back.  They said to clean with isopropyl alcohol and change the battery and the sting.  I did that.  After a GOOD cleaning, the low E sounded amazing once again! However, after about 10 minutes it started to "fade back" into its muffled sound. I cleaned it again. I checked to make sure the saddle sat nice and tight and at the right angle. It sounded good again for about 10 minutes. this pattern continues. After a very through alcohol cleaning it sounds good for a while, then it goes back to its muffledness. VERY WEIRD!!!!! Its as if while its wet from the alcohol it sounds good, then as it evaporates it goes back to its muffled sound.  What else could explain the temporary fix?

Has anyone experienced such a thing? Its driving me crazy and I need it for gigs! Please help. Thanks!

By the way, I thought wile using the 13 pin cable, the charge comes from the 13 pin cable and the battery is not needeed.  I actually took the battery out and it worked fine.  I was confused why Godin said to change the battery when I told them I was using it with the 13 pin.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: bob e on August 08, 2009, 07:51:52 PM
I had trouble with my Brian Moore piezo on the D string.  Tried eveything.  Finally too the entire bridge assemly apart, floyd rose tremelo, everything.  I found the lead from the D string piezo was pinched as in ran thru a too small slot in the trem block.  Made the stot bigger and wound up lightly glueing the leads into the channels routed for them so during reassembly everything stayed in place.  I also found the group of 6 leads was wedged between the block and body because they slide out of place.  Things have been much better.  No mystery drop outs of the D and G strings.  My first ever effort like that and while a super pain, seems to have helped.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on August 08, 2009, 08:17:46 PM
Thanks for the lead.  I couldn't find any tight or pinched leads or wires.  The fact that it works fine for 10 minutes after each cleaning is mysterious.  I thought that the alcohol helped with the electrical contact between the string and the saddle b/c that's what its acting like...so I tried some water, bt that didn't help at all so I dont know...
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: germanicus on August 08, 2009, 09:41:39 PM
Quote from: ztones on August 08, 2009, 12:13:13 PM
Godin finally wrote back.  They said to clean with isopropyl alcohol and change the battery and the sting.  I did that.  After a GOOD cleaning, the low E sounded amazing once again! However, after about 10 minutes it started to "fade back" into its muffled sound. I cleaned it again. I checked to make sure the saddle sat nice and tight and at the right angle. It sounded good again for about 10 minutes. this pattern continues. After a very through alcohol cleaning it sounds good for a while, then it goes back to its muffledness. VERY WEIRD!!!!! Its as if while its wet from the alcohol it sounds good, then as it evaporates it goes back to its muffled sound.  What else could explain the temporary fix?

Has anyone experienced such a thing? Its driving me crazy and I need it for gigs! Please help. Thanks!

By the way, I thought wile using the 13 pin cable, the charge comes from the 13 pin cable and the battery is not needeed.  I actually took the battery out and it worked fine.  I was confused why Godin said to change the battery when I told them I was using it with the 13 pin.

I would just take it to a godin deal/service center and pay for a new piezo. Its not a complex operation (you could do it yourself if your frisky) and shouldnt be a long turnover (Chuck Levins replaced one in a godin xtsa I had and it took them a few hours).
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: sixeight on August 09, 2009, 05:58:53 AM
I have had so much trouble with strings dropping volume of the RMC pickups on a Godin XTSA, especially in the summer - sweaty palms must be the cause of the problem. I have tried several guitars and they all had the same problems with me. The first guitar I tried already failed in the shop. Cleaning with alcohol only helped for a day or two. I sold the XTSA in the end and bought the VG-99. I use the GK-2 and GK-3 pickups. Pity, because I did like the XTSA when it worked...
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on August 09, 2009, 09:58:02 PM
Mistery solved!  Today the cleaning didn't work so I figured it was a conincidence with the alcohol... The movement was more likely the reason why it worked sometimes.  Anways, I ended up popping off the top of the transducer saddle.  The part that the string actually sits on.  Its a little cap basically.  anyways, the wire was loose.  For most others who wrote in, the wire gets clamped somewhere else and its  a more easily visible issue.  In this case it was hidden INSIDE the little piezo bridge.

Its completelly off now.  Don't konw if its just soldered on or if its some other "glue" holds it b/c it looked like there was a blackish residue left behind, not the usual silver from soldering.  Do you guys know how its best connected?  Thanks and I hope this might help someone else too!
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: bob e on August 10, 2009, 04:33:58 AM
Excellent!  Please post the solution when you find it.  I'm glad you tracked down the problem.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: ztones on September 06, 2009, 09:57:38 PM
Solution is simly to resolder the wire to back of transducer cap.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: timothybhewitt on January 15, 2014, 01:04:43 AM
To resurrect a dead topic, but this is the only thread that shares my dilemma.

Did you ever find a solution?  Was it a connection problem solvable with solder, or did you need to replace the saddle?

I'm having a similar issue, A string is weak, but when I take off the string and replace it works better.  Seems to work when tuned lower than a G.  But not so loud at pitch.

Please let me know what fixed your problem.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: Elantric on January 15, 2014, 01:45:12 AM
Need more info.

What type guitar?

What brand piezo pickups?

what style bridge?


Read this whole thread from the top as most solutions are already mentioned.


and check the Ground connections on the Piezo Saddles
Piezo failure experiences ( Solution: add dedicated Ground Wires!)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12657.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12657.0)
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: thebrushwithin on January 15, 2014, 05:20:24 AM
About 3yrs. ago, my LGXT had a piezo go out. I contacted LR BAGGS, and they were kind enough to send me a free replacement, which I had installed. Good folks!
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: Elantric on January 15, 2014, 05:33:01 AM
Must have been a pre 2001 era version , as Godin LGXT's  have used RMC since late 2001

But LR Baggs offers great service  - I'm about 30 minutes away from LR Baggs
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: timothybhewitt on February 06, 2014, 10:55:42 AM
Quote from: Elantric on January 15, 2014, 01:45:12 AM
Need more info.

What type guitar?

What brand piezo pickups?

what style bridge?


Read this whole thread from the top as most solutions are already mentioned.

Sorry - Lost this thread.

It's a Godin Specturm Multiac Steel.  I'm guessing the RMC PUs?  That's why I asked the OP what his solution was.  I have the same situations.  Just mine is the A string.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: timothybhewitt on March 03, 2014, 06:10:18 PM
Well, the solution (for me) was to replace the saddle.  The good folks at RMC sold me a new on e and it was pretty easy to install.  Just 2 solder points and it came ready to be wired the way it needed to go in.  Don't be afraid to do this yourself if you are handy with an iron.

Now the question is:  Why do so many of these fail?  I've had Taks from the 80's that still work just fine.  Piezos failing is pretty rare, isn't it?
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: big_jan on March 03, 2014, 09:50:18 PM
I have a red ACS Steel Multiac that I love to experiment with. In the early 2000  I followed exactly the string type of 10-47's recommended. Worked fine till 2004 when I needed heavier bottom strings which I changed to 11's or 12's. The neck and bridge of course changed relief. The D string would sound up until C# and die. I would detune and use a capo to get to where I want to. I was fine with that.

I had to send it for repair to fix the bridge when I started to see tiny little gape on the bridge. Fast forward to 2012 and the D string still fails here and there. Enjoyed C tuning for a while :)

On a recent audition Jan 2014 for a duo,  the D string totally died on me. Strings were 11's Martin (the green bronze pack).
When I got it back home, I switched back to Martin 10's. I felt the neck titled back and the relief was better.

The D string sounded fine :)  so in my case, It was not the GK cables. Not the saddles too. I was just plain having fun (foolishly) experimenting.

Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: fastelder on October 07, 2014, 07:16:50 AM
Well, this is a long time coming.  It seems that on the Godin saddle pickups, the thin wire is NOT soldered, but GLUED!

One of my saddles had very weak response, and seemed to get worse when I was in a humid/sweaty situation.  I pulled the piezo "cap" off the saddle and sure enough the wire was loose.  What looked strange was that the area it was attached was blackened.  Was it scorched when attached?  This caused me to research before I finally got the courage to set it up to solder.  I realized this would be a one-shot deal due to the tin insulation.  It was then I hit upon the thought of wire glue.

After doing much research, I am now convinced that the piezo is glued to the wire via a carbon based glue.  It wasn't until I got the glue the other day that I found out the glue is WATER soluble, hence the humid/sweat failures.  The glue manufacturer even suggests coating the joint with a clear cover like Superglue to protect it.

So I feel the mystery is now solved!
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: OldGuitarDude on October 07, 2014, 07:52:49 PM
Thank You fastelder for that info! I see Radio Shack stocks that, and there's one nearby. I'll grab a tube and keep it handy, hoping I'll never need it.... but I constantly play with the heel of my hand on the bridge, so chances are....

OldGuitarDude
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: Elantric on March 24, 2016, 12:41:59 PM
Piezo failure experiences ( Solution: add dedicated Ground Wires!)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12657.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12657.0)
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: CK1 on March 20, 2017, 06:05:01 PM
Sorry to dredge up an old topic, but I've been dealing with this, too (low output on a single string) with a 2012 LGXT that I just bought.  I went through extensive testing of ground connections and could find nothing. Took apart the bridge piece, and found the same black glue mentioned above, but my wire was still strongly attached.  Attempted to clean any corrosion with both Deoxit and isopropyl alcohol, but to no avail. 

I have an email into RMC to find out exactly how the piezo strip is attached to the underside of the bridge piece, and to see if there are additional suggestions for trouble-shooting.  I have read a few places where guys are claiming that piezo elements go bad after a certain number of years, but I've never had that issue in my life.  So, I'm curious what response I'll get, and will report back for the benefit of others having similar issues.   
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: lespauled on March 21, 2017, 07:31:09 AM
This is from an email from Godin, that worked for me.

QuoteYou should try the following :

-change the 9V battery
-remove the strings, pull out the defective piezo saddle and gently twist the cable
-clean the piezo saddles with isopropyl alcohol
-spray contact cleaner on the preamp and the output assembly's circuit boards

Also was a little stunned that they told me that I would have to return to the dealer that I bought the guitar from, not the closest one.  :o

Thankfully, it didn't come to that.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: CK1 on March 21, 2017, 08:01:27 AM
Quote from: lespauled on March 21, 2017, 07:31:09 AM
This is from an email from Godin, that worked for me.

Also was a little stunned that they told me that I would have to return to the dealer that I bought the guitar from, not the closest one.  :o

Thankfully, it didn't come to that.

Literally tried all of those, to no avail.  But I've already heard back from RMC, and will update here what I figure out.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: CK1 on March 21, 2017, 11:17:29 AM
OK, here's where I'm at, at this point.  I've had a number of email exchanges with Richard McClish/RMC, and they have been enlightening.  I'll preface my response by saying that I'm a reasonably accomplished electronics tinkerer who fixes guitars, builds stompboxes, etc.  So, I'm not clueless with this stuff, and tried to ask next-level questions to really understand what was happening.  Should some admin want to "sticky" this, I can do a cleaner write-up at some point.

My findings:


RMC "flash solders" the piezo connections on the bottom of the gold bridge piece caps, so as to keep the piezoelectric charge.  The mini coaxial cable (which carries the signal) is then attached using an electrically-conductive adhesive that he didn't name, but is referred to by a previous post as "carbon glue" of some kind.  He did not say if the one they use is water soluble, and my guess is that it isn't. However, either the glue or the connecting piece is clearly affected by moisture, as evidenced by the countless issues documented here and other places on the interwebs.  The ground portion of the cable connects with the underside of the lower gold bridge piece.  Then, that wire is connected to 2 pads (one for ground, one for signal) on the pc board. 

Grounding and moisture issues can cause complete loss of signal, as has been posted here at great length.  But for lowered signal levels, Richard claims that there is most likely impact and/or excessive force damage to the sensor.  He thought it could have occurred in shipping, which is possible in my case, though strange that it would only affect one saddle. Either way, he said that there is no fix for this, other than replacement.  I grudgingly agree, as I tried everything I could think of already, and haven't been able to repair it to full function. 

I know others have found that re-seating the saddle can fix their problem, and that's very possible if the issue is a loose connection (or possibly even corrosion).  But after talking with Richard, I think I need to trust his knowledge on piezo pickups, which is undoubtedly superior to mine, and just get a new one.  You can purchase directly through him at a cheaper price than I've found anywhere else online, though it's a bit of an ordeal because he doesn't take ANY forms of electronic payment.  But still nice that you can get just one. 

Also of note is that Godin installs these systems.  So, cold solder joints, open grounds, etc., are their responsibility, not the pickup manufacturer.  That said, the design's fragility rests with RMC, of course.

The positives:
- RMC is VERY responsive to emails (I received replies within one hour for every email), and willing to spell out information if necessary
- the price for a single saddle replacement is high, but far less than needing to replace an entire set
- Richard himself is a gentleman, and the interactions I've had with him have convinced me to work through the issues with my guitar instead of dumping it for something else

The negatives:
- despite claims that the system is fully functional, clearly there are significant weaknesses due to the fragility of these pickups and connectors, seeing as so many players have had issues with them
- even a new saddle is still exposed to air/moisture, and needs to be separately sealed (though this isn't too difficult, and could be done with super glue, nail polish, etc.)

If anyone reading this is having an issue with low output, checking the connections is still a good place to start.  But if they are solid, and using an anti-corrosive does not fix the problem, you most likely have a similar situation to mine.  I may still tinker with this, because it will be weeks before the new bridge saddle arrives (due to an RMC vacation).  So, if I make any subsequent discoveries, I'll update the post.

 
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: admin on March 21, 2017, 12:28:20 PM
When the piezo saddle went dead due to moisture from sweaty palms at a gig in a hot summer,  Ive had success reviving dead piezo saddle by using a hot air blower - just  a hair dryer on high setting aimed at the dead piezo saddle for 15 minutes.

Connect the guitar via 13 pin cable to your VG-99 / GR-55/ GP-10 and Use screwdriver and Periodically "Tap"  the problem Piezo Saddle while blowing hot air, and see if the signal is restored on the dead piezo saddle after a few minutes of hot air -

be careful not to use too much heat  - I placed aluminum foil as a protective heat shield surrounding the bridge - to protect the paint on my Godin xtSA.  - as too mush heat may damage your guitar finish   

   
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: mccorp on August 21, 2017, 05:36:01 AM
Thanks for the comments and suggestions offered in this thread. I had the best luck with the hair-dryer technique offered by admin. It worked wonderfully for me and in a short period of time. It is evident that moisture is the culprit and keeping it to a minimum it essential. I am wondering if storing silica gel in the case might be helpful during the months that are most humid.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: vtgearhead on August 21, 2017, 06:11:14 AM
Quote from: mccorp on August 21, 2017, 05:36:01 AM
Thanks for the comments and suggestions offered in this thread. I had the best luck with the hair-dryer technique offered by admin. It worked wonderfully for me and in a short period of time. It is evident that moister is the culprit and keeping it to a minimum it essential. I am wondering if storing silica gel in the case might be helpful during the months that are most humid.

Installation of discrete ground wires is probably the only sure, long term fix.  Line 6 have their heads firmly stuck in the ground with regard to the transducer grounding issues.
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: mccorp on August 21, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
Quote from: snhirsch on August 21, 2017, 06:11:14 AM
Installation of discrete ground wires is probably the only sure, long term fix.  Line 6 have their heads firmly stuck in the ground with regard to the transducer grounding issues.

Thanks for this information. Is this something that can be repaired or are you talking about a modification that needs to be built in at the ground level at the time the instrument is made?
Title: Re: LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: admin on August 21, 2017, 09:08:04 AM
Quote from: mccorp on August 21, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
Thanks for this information. I this something that can be repaired or are you talking about a modification that needs to be built in at the ground level at the time the instrument is made?

Read the details

Piezo failure experiences ( Solution: add dedicated Ground Wires!)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12657.msg91984#msg91984
Title: Re: Godin LGXT - LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: muzogitar on April 01, 2021, 11:15:42 AM
I have the same problem as yours please help me . After cleaning with alchol after 10 minutes volume gone . I didnt understand your solition
Title: Re: Godin LGXT - LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: admin on April 01, 2021, 11:26:38 AM
Isopropyl alchohol for 10 minutes will makes thing worse as off the shelf example bottles  are high percentage water

After applying alcohol,  You must thoroughly dry the piezo saddle -protect the guitar top from heat with aluminum foil and aim a hot air dryer at piezo bridge for 20 minutes

Then wait 24 hours and retest the guitar.




Godin used to replace a defective RMC Piezo saddles

Could contact RMC pickups , but they will charge you for a replacement saddle and link to an installer who will charge you labor

I'd make a brief YouTube video and email it to Godin support -and get them to cover the repair.

The Godin Guitar Company
19420 Avenue Clark-Graham
Baie-D'Urfe Quebec Canada
      H9X 3R8

Tel (514) 457-7977 ext.135
Fax (514) 457-5774

info@godinguitars.com
http://www.godinguitars.com/


RMC Pickups
http://www.rmcpickup.com/
info@rmcmusic.com

RMC Pickup Co.
1739 Addison #15
Berkeley CA 94703
Title: Re: Godin LGXT - LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: TinTin on December 13, 2022, 02:03:23 AM
Hi guys,
I have a Godin LGXT of the 90s with a L.R. Baggs X-Bridge.
I have a similar problem on the Low E,
low volume respect the others string.
Sometimes it works perfectly and sometimes it doesn't.

I have changed the piezo seddle at the Low E string,
I have been perfectly playing for an hour.
Two weeks later I have had the problem again.

Do I Have to change Low E string from 0.10 to 0.09 ?
Do I Have to modify the saddle angle ?
Do I have to file the surface of the seddle ?

Regards from Italy
Simone C.




Title: Re: Godin LGXT - LOW E sounds muffled on piezo only
Post by: kostasjazz on January 28, 2024, 07:32:56 AM
On my Godin xtsa the low e, and g had no sound, and the d a lowered one.
I emailed godin for a official repair guy in my area (london) and I got no response.

I took the small top golden part of the saddle and cleaned it underneath where it was touching the connection cable, and the guitar is back to normal (for now)...I will update if something goes wrong