Netbooks as live vg99 synth/sampler engine?

Started by germanicus, November 10, 2008, 10:22:23 PM

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germanicus

There is a new generation of laptops, known as netbooks, which are extremely small and powerful, and many run windows xp. They are also extremely cheap, and many have solid state drives. Ive seen some dedicated VST hardware pedal units that go for quite a bit mentioned here, and thought that these netbooks may be a much more powerful/versatile/cheaper option. For instance:

http://www.dynamism.com/79/category.shtml#Product=aspire_one

is about 300 bucks. You could possibly use your vg99 via usb as both an audio and midi interface with one of these. Of course I havent tried it, but I do use my dell laptop in this same capacity (an Inspiron 1520 dual core 2 duo with 2 gigs of ram and internal 7200 rpm drive) with impressive results.

It would be interesting to see if these new netbooks could run a VST wrapper with multiple softsynths/soft samplers/effects processers (guitar rig 3). They could easily fit in a guitars gig bag and are much smaller than the 99 itself.



My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

jassy

Sadly those netbooks use Atom cpus which are way less powerful as the core2duo ones, I dont think its enough power to run many vstis and effects.


pd: I know this thread is old, but wanted to warn about the atom cpus.



germanicus

Well it doesnt need to be too powerful.

It was possible to run softsynths/samplers on pentium 2 single core processors so its a matter of what you are trying to run.

I recently got a family member an athlon 64 based netbook with 2 gigs ram. Ill try it with the 99 when i get the chance.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

jassy

That would depend very much about what virtual instruments and effects you want to run. The most powerful ones can get a lot of cpu, Im thinking about Omnisphere at this moment which for sure you would not be able to run in a Atom or P2 machine.

In my case I switched to laptops to be able to run better sounds than the ones provided by hardware synths modules, that implies to use some of the best around and those can be very cpu demanding. There are some good sounding vstis that are relatively modest in resources, Hypersonic 2 comes to mind, great sound and very low cpu, but sadly its discontinued, so there are alternatives, but thats something to have in consideration when purchasing a laptop.

Lets dont forget also that to play synths in realtime (and more if we want to run the guitar trhough the computer and apply effects) we need a very low latency and that also normally implies a better and powerful laptop. Me personally at latencies more than 3-4 ms Im not confortable.




aliensporebomb

#4
Definetely Core2duo for Omnisphere MacOS or Windows.

Also Omnisphere is a very nice softsynth but you'll want to get the fastest small hard drive you can because each patch
loads from the disc - I'm not sure about SSD drives but the database for Omnisphere is very large (a little over 42 (yes,
forty two not four point two) gigabytes) and you'll want a very fast drive to keep that loading speedy.

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

A2theT

I bought an ACER Netbook with Atom processor just for this.  It worked ok for some things.  I used the ASIO4ALL driver to wrap the on board audio chip and was able to run some soft synths from it.  However, certain ones like the Oberheim OP-X would start to break up.  I exchanged it for a beautiful HP TX2517ca tablet laptop that does the trick for everything.  Its small and compact.  Just a 10" touchscreen. 
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

germanicus

OK I happened upon a new Gateway LT3103u which is currently available from best buy for $379 :

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9370272&type=product&id=1218093001788

I got this particular model not necessarily for audio, it was for a family member who wanted it for internet access when travelling. I tested several they had in store for general responsiveness and this one was ... the least sluggish compared to a full bore core 2 duo full size laptop. Its responsiveness is actually quite good given its a single core cpu.

The unit has:
-AMD L1110 processor (supposedly 64bit but the OS it comes with is 32bit).
-2 GB DDR2 SDRAM (which is what I think made it respond significantly better to all the other netbooks they carried)
-11.6" WXGA HD LED display (1366x768)
-250 GB SATA internal drive (5400 RPM)
-ATI Radeon X1270 Graphics chipset
-Webcam w/ Microphone
-Other various features (3 USB 2.0 ports, Wireless LAN b/g, 10/100 LAN via rj-45)
-6 cell battery
-Vista Home Basic

More info in next post....
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

germanicus

I ran the standard Vista Audio tweaks to maximize performance (prioritizing background services, killing any graphics treats, DMA mode, killing unneeded services and startup, etc.)



Using V-STACK by Steinberg ($49 direct download) I can load in various Soft Synths and Samplers. Ive only tested a few that I own at the moment. I Configured V-STACK to use the midi control driver of the vg99 and to output through the vg-99's outputs. So far Ive had no problems runnings Korgs Legacy Cell collection as well as GMedia's M-Tron. M-Tron is a sample based Mellotron emulator. My big concern was getting this to run and whether I could get reasonable performance live with this loaded onto the internal drive (a 5400 rpm drive).
Its working rather well with what seems little cpu overhead and Im able to run a rather cpu intensive reverb along with the M-tron, all with extremely useable latency/responsiveness.

More CPU intensive softsynths/samplers may be a challenge for it, but so far so good. No crashes, and no audible pops/crackles once I tweaked the driver.



I plan to use this this weekend at a gig in baltimore and see how it stands up. I usually use either a gr33 or a much more powerful/bigger dual core inspiron, but anything that gets the size of my rig down is a plus. Batter power is supposedly 5 hours, and from what ive seen this is accurate. If folks are curious about the performance of other apps and demo's are available for them, i can run some more tests and maybe make a vid to show performance.

My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

jassy

Quote from: germanicus on August 14, 2009, 12:52:28 AM

Its working rather well with what seems little cpu overhead and Im able to run a rather cpu intensive reverb along with the M-tron, all with extremely useable latency/responsiveness.

More CPU intensive softsynths/samplers may be a challenge for it, but so far so good. No crashes, and no audible pops/crackles once I tweaked the driver.

Im very much surprised that you are comfortable playing with that high latency setting, thats around 17 ms, right?

I use the driver at the absolute minimum, thats 3 ms, and I can feel and suffer the latency in the 5 and 6 strings.

:o :o :o


germanicus

The latency isnt very distracting at all. The identical settings (5th notch from the left), nets me a 9.8msec reported latency in sonar PE on my workstation. I dont have Sonar installed on the netbook but I imagine the latency would be the same considering its the same settings and hardware.

Another factor is im not just using it for midi sounds by themselves, I combine the outputs of the guitar patches with the synths, so its basically inaudible difference when mixed together in a full band context.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

jassy

That setting (5 notch from the left and not ticked the "use smaller buffer") reports here 17 ms (i think it adds the a/d d/a converters latency to the total) in Kore2. When I set to the minimum it reports 3 ms. All this is at 44,1 khz.

Seems strange that big report difference... probably Sonar dont counts the ad/da and internal processing in the latency reported?

I also play the midi sounds mixed with the cosm and real guitar sounds, it helps to created beatiful hybrid sounds but also to minimize the latency (in the bass strings) and some glitches that sometimes happens.

I think that if you try with midi sounds with fast attack you probably would notice an important latency?. You use the midi sounds to add pads and slow attack sounds? that would probably explain why are you comfortable with this latency.





A2theT

I too use a softsynth loader which I find a lot better than Vstack.  Its called forte ensemble and it lets you create set lists and save all kinds of cool rack setups.
Search the web and check it out and you may like it.
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

germanicus

Thanks for the recommendation! what do you find forte does better than v-stack? V-stack is a third the price of the lower level version of forte and im not sure what forte does better.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

A2theT

#13
My top features are performance recovery, the dxi synths, and the large big scene views.   I have synths and effects that crash a lot for some reason and brainspawn's forte ensemble always recovers where i left off.

Vstack is not geared up for live performance like forte is.  Check out a lot of valuable info and comments on this thread. 

http://www.brainspawn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=365

info on ver2
http://www.brainspawn.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=75
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

A2theT

Quote from:  MCK
I don't think requests like this will be welcome in a forum like this where intellectual property is bread & butter for many. Would you like them to share their investment portfolios, use their guitars and also take a shot at their creations as well? What you're asking for is stealing. Take it elsewhere.

Well, no need for any "Shame on you's" here.  The reality is, it happens everywhere and I can asure you that you have an mp3, piece of software, movie or some piece of a collective works on your computer, cd player, tape deck, or even in your old VCR so its hypocritical to play the  "Holier than thou" game.  Maybe I'm ignorant but I'm not a software designer so I probably don't appreciate your response as much as I should. 

I think a proper response would be,

"Its a little classless to beg for software in a forum dedicated to a user group such as this.  Go google it from a torrent site and get it the same way you get the rest of your stuff....."

My two cents....

Have fun on the forum, thanks for contributing and Happy Thanksgiving!
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

MCK

I still stand by my point. Removing my post. No need to get all aggravated on such a nice day for you. Enjoy Thanksgiving.

guitarnstuff

I am very intrigued by these posts so I experimented with running a vst (cakewalk dimension) within Sonar Home Studio as triggered by the VG99 and in return using the VG99 as the sound card. Got some awesome sounds after messy around to get any all day. I am very new to the whole midi and vst world. Furthermore I imagine I could run the VG99 editor along side a VST host and perhaps even play backing tracks simultaneously. However, I have more questions now:

1) How does latency of using vst on a computer compare to using a VG99 with a traditional midi module like the Roland Sound Canvas or Sonic Cell?

2) If I was to jump to a laptop as a expansion for the VG99, what is the recommended processor speed and memory needed to have responsive glitch free VST's running with low latency?

3) Do VST host such as Forte and Vstack use less CPU power than running inside Sonar Home Studio?

4) What is the best live setup for running VST? Would running VST synths be a pain compared to traditional sound modules?

I would greatly appreciate anyones input.

Jim Williams

Hey Guitarnstuff, Check out this thread  https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,2047.0.html I hope to answer any questions anyone might have on the subject. ;D
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

germanicus

Quote from: guitarnstuff on November 08, 2009, 10:11:06 PM
1) How does latency of using vst on a computer compare to using a VG99 with a traditional midi module like the Roland Sound Canvas or Sonic Cell?

2) If I was to jump to a laptop as a expansion for the VG99, what is the recommended processor speed and memory needed to have responsive glitch free VST's running with low latency?

3) Do VST host such as Forte and Vstack use less CPU power than running inside Sonar Home Studio?

4) What is the best live setup for running VST? Would running VST synths be a pain compared to traditional sound modules?

I would greatly appreciate anyones input.

1) If the system is properly set up in regards to system tweaks, asio settings, and has the necessary cpu/ram, a soft synth can perform as well as a hardware unit.

2)Are you interested in running soft samplers, soft synths, or real time signal processors that affect the actual audio of the 99's guitar signal (like Waves GTR or Guitar Rig 3. ie do want to the laptop as an effects/amp modeller? or do you want to use the laptop as a midi playback device?
The most intensive usage is manipulating the vg99's audio signal, with something like Guitar Rig 3. This demands the best possible latency.

I have 2 systems I use as 'expansion' laptops for the 99.  ONe is a gateway netbook with an athlon cpu, windows vista, and 2 gigs ram. Im able to run a soft sampler with very useable results (M-tron), and even a few instances of some soft synths (Korg Legacy Cell). I ran a slew of tweaks to maximize performance, and have used this live with my band without a hitch.

My second system is a much more powerful dual core athlon x2 based dell inspiron 1520 with 4 gigs ram. Its able to run several soft synths and samplers live, and also process audio in realtime with acceptable latency.

I would recommend getting a laptop with at LEAST 2 gigs ram, if not 4 or more. A dual core processor is desirable, and I would recommend using Windows xp, as opposed to vista. Also, get a laptop with a 7200 rpm drive.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

germanicus

(continued response)

I would NOT recommend getting a netbook with less than 2 gigs.

3. I have not used Forte, but V-stack definitely uses less cpu resources compared to my copy of sonar PE.

4. Great question. My netbook, while being much less powerful than my inspiron 1520 (a full size 15 inch laptop), is my preferred goto device. It holds a charge for well over 3 hours of constant operation, it can probably go for well over 4 or 5 (of course you can use a power supply, but I havent needed to). This is plenty for live use. Also, if god forbid someone spills beer or even walks off with it, im down about $350 bucks as opposed to well over a grand for my other laptop. Its very compact and I carry it in the accessory pocket in my gig bag for my guitar. All that is required is I set up my vg99, plug in a usb cable between the netbook and 99, start them both up, click on v-stack and im ready to roll. The hassle is minimal. Im NOT doing realtime audio processing on it live (GR3), so cant speak to the netbook running that at acceptable latency live. Im pretty happy with the tones I get out the 99 itself, and use the netbook as a midi playback module. The downside to using 'soft' gear is having it crash on you in a gig. I havent had this happen, but its a possibility. The key is dedicating the unit to your specific application (ie dont install tons of other software like games and such). Tweaking for audio use is essential and there are several good guides available on the internet for the given O.S. you use.

The possibilities with the vg99 and midi are really great. I used to use a gr33 live with the 99, but the netbook has supplanted it. smaller stage footprint, less cables, hassle, and IMO much better sounds. I have the FC300 foot controller and have assigned one of the foot pedals to control the volume of the netbook (cc#7).
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

guitarnstuff

#20
Big thanks to germanicus and gtrjimmy413! I messed around with the VG99 driver within a demo of Forte Ensemble 2.0 running Cakewalk Dimension LE and Cakewalk TTI and Square. Forte reports a latentacy of about 8.5 ms. It was using as a midi module and the latentacy was not an issue for me. I might be able to mess around with the driver and reduce more? I had about 8 or so instances of the 3 previously mentioned vst's running with no dropout and about 30% CPU on a fairly fast desktop duo core with much memory (can't remember specifics). Cool sound and sound options. I didn't get to messing with amp sims or audio effects yet as it was getting late. Likely tomorrows diversion. However, I'm not sure that would be a primary use for me, especially live. I do like the amp and effect sounds from the VG99 as is and more would just be for self-indulgence. I think I would use vst midi modules primarily.

I looked up system requirements for Dimension and Forte. It appears that 1.5 ghz pentium 4 with 1 gb of memory is the minimum requirement. I wonder if a netbook with the 1.6 ghz "Atom" processor would do the trick, especially if I can find one with 2 gb memory? Has anyone tried one of these? I also thought about getting tigerdirect.com for some refurbished duo core laptops, but I have to admit I like the idea of the smaller netbook fitting into my pedal board. Since this would be dedicated to my rig, I like the sound of $350 for a netbook vs $1200 for a good laptop duo core, but don't want to undershoot what is needed and have to buy twice. 

Thoughts anyone?

A2theT

Nope. I wouldn't waste your time.  Read my previous comments in this thread.  https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,1331.msg10467.html#msg10467
Maybe in a year or so Netbooks will be better.  I ended up returning mine for an HP Tablet Laptop I picked up for $725. (double netbook cost).  Netbook looked so nice attached to my stand too........
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

germanicus

Theres such a range of soft synths/samplers out there in terms of their resource requirements, so its a hard question to answer really, what apps are you looking to run? In my case my netbook handles those I use live fine, one is sample based (m-tron) and I think a big part of it working well is that the netbook has a 5400 rpm drive, and 2 gigs ram. Its uses an athlon 64 processor, so im not sure how that stacks up against the atoms. Many netbooks may not have a 5400 rpm drive and 2 gigs ram, so checking specs are critical. The system I have (a gateway LT3103u) is probably just past what is needed resourse wise. With less ram, slower drive, it probably would be problematic.

My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

A2theT

#23
Well I can assure you a first generation netbook with ATOM processor taps out at 100%CPU utilization in Task Manager.

I believe the Athlon64 Netbooks only came out in July and the Gateway one I saw had an 11.6" screen.  So I don't know how they classify it as a netbook TBH.
The advantage of the Netbook is the wieght, size, and price.  The downside is the CPU and of course the tight keyboard.  To me, anything bigger than an 8.9" screen should not be classified as a netbook.

edit:  Germs gateway doesnt really look like a netbook.  I'm not sure how Gateway can market it as such.  The screen is just too big.  I mean, back in the mid n90's a laptop with a 12" screen was a grandaddy!
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

guitarnstuff

I continue to try before I buy with demo version of Forte Ensemble 2.0. I am using Cakewalk TTI and Dimension LE to trial with it. I am not sure how I am program a control pedal on the FC300 in sys ex mode to change patches on the soft synth. How does all of this work?