FTP - Changing patches on external hardware synths

Started by sine_3000, June 21, 2016, 07:58:43 PM

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sine_3000

I'm using the FTP to trigger the patches on my GR-20 via the Ghost Converter, and that part is working well.

However, I'm unable to cycle though the patches on the GR-20 using the up and down buttons on the FTP.

This is what the FTP User's Manual has to say about this on p. 15

Hardware Mode Patches

Once booted in Hardware Mode, users can move up and down between Hardware Mode Patches using the UP and DOWN D-Pad controls on the TriplePlay controller. Over 200 Hardware Mode Patches can be saved to the TriplePlay Controller using the Fishman TriplePlay standalone software. Note that the software does not have to be on or running for the TriplePlay to be used in Hardware Mode, but the software is an excellent utility for setting the parameters of your individual Hardware Mode Patches.

It seems I should definitely have this basic functionality.  Even the GK-3 will cycle through patches using the on-board buttons.

I am using the GR-20 in "local" mode, which means it's just functioning as a hardware synth.  The manual does state, on p. 29, that when using the GR-20 to connect to an external sequencer, Program Change messages will be active.

What I don't understand is what the large-windowed "Hardware Synth" setup screen, accessible in the FTP software interface, has to do with making hard changes to the "hardware mode" on the FTP.  There is a smaller-windowed "hardware mode" menu accessible through this software, and changes made to the FTP are immediate, and are maintained even when disconnected from the computer.

But there are no Program Change options configurable in the smaller-windowed hardware mode - they are only available in the larger-windowed Hardware Synth setup screen.  And even if they were permanent changes, like the small-windowed changes, I don't see how to trigger what the GR-20 manual calls "MIDI Bank Select CC#0".

Maybe this question is too arcane?  The GR-20 is too outmoded and unused? I just wonder why the FTP isn't sending patch changes as it indicates in the manual.  Any help?


shawnb

#1
For Hardware Mode to send Patch Change Commands (PC)s, you must edit a bunch of 'Hardware Synth' patches, order them as desired in the User Patches pane, and press 'Load Controller' to load those to your FTP.  Each 'Hardware Synth' patch must specify the PC you wish to use. 

The FTP's Basic Mode also transmits PCs in sequential order, but has limitations, such as a fixed, small pitch bend range. 

Now...   Does the GR-20 recognize PCs???   Read the manual closely.  There is a section in the manual on "Patch Link Setup" (p18-19) which explains how to make the GR-20 choose patches when it receives PCs. 

In the appendix, it appears to list PCs that can be set directly (p41, p48). 

I don't own a GR-20, so I can't experiment with those functions.   

Some more info on programming the FTP is below...

Comparing & contrasting the capabilities of the different FTP modes can be found here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13653.0

If you want to go the 'Hardware Mode' path, if you are brave, there are ways to edit multiple patches directly in your tripleplay.settings file.  Back it up first, in case you hose it up:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12036.0

More on using Hardware Mode can be found here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9625.0
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

#2
I believe pg 29 in the GR-20 manual is specific to using the GR-20 to transmit midi data to an external device, eg, a synth.   

Pg. 30 describes setting it up to receive midi.   

It appears the pitch bend range of the GR-20 is fixed at 24.   You'll want to set it to 24 on the FTP.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

shawnb

Your last question...

Midi cc#0 is the MSB of bank select.   This may help you enter values in your ftp hw synth patch that correspond to the table on pg 41.

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

sine_3000

Thanks a ton, shawnb!  Looks like I've still got some work to do. But I'm glad I'm not the first person to have these problems.  I'll report back with my results.

sine_3000

Quote from: shawnb on June 21, 2016, 09:46:41 PM
For Hardware Mode to send PCs, you must edit a bunch of 'Hardware Synth' patches, order them as desired in the User Patches pane, and press 'Load Controller' to load those to your FTP.  Each 'Hardware Synth' patch must specify the PC you wish to use. 

This has me a bit confused. I assume I must have my hardware synth connected via MIDI to my computer, in order for FTP to receive the hardware patch info?  Then, I assume, I can save the patch parameters onto the FTP in hardware mode, and the next time I connect the FTP directly to the hardware synth, with no PC interface, FTP will send correctly written patch info to the hardware synth, and I will be able to switch between patches?  This is the basic idea, yes?

On the other hand, is there any way to load and save the hardware synth patches onto the FTP *without* having to connect the hardwaye synth to the PC and the FTP software? Because to be honest I'm not even sure if the FTP software would be able to see the hardware synth even if it was connected to the PC.  Haven't tested yet, however.

Elantric

#6
QuoteThis has me a bit confused. I assume I must have my hardware synth connected via MIDI to my computer, in order for FTP to receive the hardware patch info?

Many here skip a computer and use a USB Host to MIDI I/O adapter box

I use  1st generation iConnectMIDI box
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg55324#msg55324

shawnb

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 23, 2016, 10:57:36 AMThis has me a bit confused. I assume I must have my hardware synth connected via MIDI to my computer, in order for FTP to receive the hardware patch info?  Then, I assume, I can save the patch parameters onto the FTP in hardware mode, and the next time I connect the FTP directly to the hardware synth, with no PC interface, FTP will send correctly written patch info to the hardware synth, and I will be able to switch between patches?  This is the basic idea, yes?

Yes.  To program the FTP it must be connected to the computer.  By programming the FTP, I mean configuring the Hardware Synth patches and loading them to the FTP controller using the FTP app. 

Once the FTP has those HW Synth patches loaded, you can then use the FTP in HW mode to play your synth.  As Elantric points out above, you can do this without the computer if you have the right device.  There are several products available that enable sending the data from the FTP directly to the HW synth without the use of a computer.

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 23, 2016, 10:57:36 AMOn the other hand, is there any way to load and save the hardware synth patches onto the FTP *without* having to connect the hardwaye synth to the PC and the FTP software? Because to be honest I'm not even sure if the FTP software would be able to see the hardware synth even if it was connected to the PC.  Haven't tested yet, however.

You don't need the HW synth connected to *program* the FTP, it's just a downstream recipient of the MIDI data.   It's sure helpful for testing though...  The FTP doesn't really "see" the HW synth (there's no "handshake"), it just sends the MIDI data down the MIDI bus. 

Hope this makes sense.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

sine_3000

#8
Quote from: Elantric on June 23, 2016, 11:29:17 AM
Many here skip a computer and use a USB Host to MIDI I/O adapter box

I use  1st generation iConnectMIDI box
Yes, I guess I failed to mention that anywhere in this post, actually I am using a MIDI I/O box.  That's why I'm trying to figure out how to store all the patch data in the FTP, so when I do go direct to MIDI, the FTP will be able to do the patch switching correctly.

I have to say, I like that IConnect 1st gen, because it has a USB A port right on the front.  And is that a micro-USB on there as well?!  I'd buy one of those if I could (assuming it functions smoothly, seeing as how it's 1st gen).

The current iConnect2 only has 2 USB B ports, which are useless for the FTP.  You'd have to go all the way to the $249 iConnect4 just to get a single USB A port, it seems.

I just bought the Disaster Area Ghost Converter, which has a USB A port, and it does work as advertised.

http://www.disasterareaamps.com/shop/ghost-converter

sine_3000

#9
Quote from: shawnb on June 23, 2016, 12:43:07 PM
You don't need the HW synth connected to *program* the FTP, it's just a downstream recipient of the MIDI data.   It's sure helpful for testing though...  The FTP doesn't really "see" the HW synth (there's no "handshake"), it just sends the MIDI data down the MIDI bus. 

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to keep these two separate ideas distinct.

Just to be clear, I am using a USB MIDI host controller, as I stated above.

Back to the issue of programming the FTP to save the hardware's patches and config's on the FTP, then: should I MIDI-out from the GR-20, and MIDI-in to my soundcard, and then press "load controller"?

Actually, I've tried both hardware-out sound card in, and also Hardware -in, soundcard out, and I have never been able to generate the list of patches, as the FTP manual says.

I *do* understand that ultimately I will only need the FTP, the USB-MIDI host, and the GR-20 to make music.  I do understand that it would be easier to program the patches into the FTP if I was able to see all the hardware patches displayed and configurable via the FTP software - that is what I am after.  I just don't know how to do it!

Ed.  Might I need BOTH in-out and out-in connections active, to load and and configure the hardware patches on the FTP software?  I only have one MIDI cable at the moment!

shawnb

#10
Quote from: sine_3000 on June 23, 2016, 01:31:07 PM
Back to the issue of programming the FTP to save the hardware's patches and config's on the FTP, then: should I MIDI-out from the GR-20, and MIDI-in to my soundcard, and then press "load controller"?

I *do* understand that ultimately I will only need the FTP, the USB-MIDI host, and the GR-20 to make music.  I do understand that it would be easier to program the patches into the FTP if I was able to see all the hardware patches displayed and configurable via the FTP software - that is what I am after.  I just don't know how to do it!

Ed.  Might I need BOTH in-out and out-in connections active, to load and and configure the hardware patches on the FTP software?  I only have one MIDI cable at the moment!

When the FTP dongle is in your USB port and the FTP app is running, they (FTP USB dongle  & FTP app) are already talking to each other.  That is the minimum config needed to program the FTP.  No MIDI cables required, no GR-20 connection required.  Plug the FTP into your PC and run the app.  When you press the "Load Controller" button, the user patches are loaded onto the FTP.  Once loaded on the FTP, you can use the FTP in HW mode.

While doing the config, it would also be handy to have a MIDI OUT from your PC to your GR-20 MIDI IN for testing.  That's how I'd do it until I got the GR-20's Program Changes configured and working as desired. 

At performance time, it's simply FTP => Ghost => GR-20.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

sine_3000

Quote from: shawnb on June 23, 2016, 01:56:42 PM
While doing the config, it would also be handy to have a MIDI OUT from your PC to your GR-20 MIDI IN for testing.  That's how I'd do it until I got the GR-20's Program Changes configured and working as desired. 
This is where I am.  Everything else I understand and have successfully implemented.

What I can not do, is get the GR-20's patches to load into the FTP software, so I can tweak them, and ultimately save them onto the FTP via the hardware mode loading.

I've got GR-20 MIDI cable out into my sound card's MIDI-in, but nothing registers in the FTP software.

I even read an (overly long) article on the (miserably ill-informing) Fishman Tripleplay "blog" (no user forums?  WTF?), which suggested loading up the Tripleplay VST into a DAW, as a means of getting MIDI successfully sent through the sound card.  So far, this has failed to work, too.

Elantric

#12
QuoteI've got GR-20 MIDI cable out into my sound card's MIDI-in, but nothing registers in the FTP software.

I do not own a GR-20, but I can tell you it never will.

The FTP transmits MIDI to your hardware synth via "send and pray" , and there is no MIDI data return "handshake" to the FTP from the external hardware synth connected via 5 pin MIDI connection



Using the FTP Controllers guitar mounted "D-Pad" , allows you to transmit MIDI patch change Up & transmit MIDI patch change down MIDI commands to your external MIDI  Synth

You simply need to plan ahead and re-arrange your GR-20 presets in the 1st bank  to accommodate that, as a separate procedure.  (No need for an FTP MIDI connection )

I confirm what ShawnB wrote below >
Quote
When the FTP dongle is in your USB port and the FTP app is running, they (FTP USB dongle  & FTP app) are already talking to each other.  That is the minimum config needed to program the FTP.  No MIDI cables required, no GR-20 connection required.  Plug the FTP into your PC and run the app.  When you press the "Load Controller" button, the user patches are loaded onto the FTP.  Once loaded on the FTP, you can use the FTP in HW mode.

While doing the config, it would also be handy to have a MIDI OUT from your PC to your GR-20 MIDI IN for testing.  That's how I'd do it until I got the GR-20's Program Changes configured and working as desired. 

At performance time, it's simply FTP => Ghost => GR-20.

and read Shawnb's FTP Modes & Midi Implementation Guide
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13653.0







sine_3000

#13
Ok, but

Quote"While doing the config, it would also be handy to have a MIDI OUT from your PC to your GR-20 MIDI IN for testing.  That's how I'd do it until I got the GR-20's Program Changes configured and working as desired."
- for testing *what*?  If I can't get the GR-20 to send its patch info into the FTP software, as the FTP manual states it should be able to, then how will I be able to "test" and configure the GR-20's patches, i.e. in the FTP software's hardware-synth config panel?

As to the Up-Down buttons on the FTP, I couldn't successfully make them scroll through my current "favorite" saved patches on the GR-20.  I think it happened once, but I was just pressing madly on the FTP's "joystick" when it happened.  I might be satisfied even for this much success, if I could do it consistently, but that would mean abandoning any hope of custom-configuring things like which of the four pitch-bend modes I could use for a given patch, i.e. turned off for piano patches, turned on for horn patches. 

As it works now, setting the FTP's master hardware setting to AUTO pitch bend will bend piano notes, when I manually switch patches on the GR-20.  That was what made me want to get into this whole "saving patch configs on the FTP" in the first place.

Elantric

#14
Quote- for testing *what*?

To listen to the GR-20 while playing the Guitar with FTP

The FTP transmits MIDI Note On/Off messages to trigger the connected MIDI tone module

but the FTP does not really care or need to know what MIDI tone module you are using

QuoteAs to the Up-Down buttons on the FTP, I couldn't successfully make them scroll through my current "favorite" saved patches on the GR-20.  I think it happened once, but I was just pressing madly on the FTP's "joystick" when it happened.


The FTP Controller's Up-Down buttons can access the first bank of 127 patches on most MIDI synths  -never tried accessing more than that - which could be a hurdle if the first set of 127 patches on your Synth are burned in ROM factory presets
Here on my FTP system, I can connect the FTP USB Receiver to iConnectMidi's front  USB Host port, then connect   IConnectMIDI's MIDI Out to my Casio CTK-750 General MIDI Synth and use the FTP Controller's Up/Down buttons to wirelessly change presets on the Casio CTK-750  - sequentially up and down.
It was plug & play right out of the box too:

- as shown here:
FTP FAQ:
April 23, 2013,
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.0


can report the Fishman Tripleplay Receiver works excellently with the iConnectMIDI device's "USB Host to 5 pin MIDI" feature.

The Tripleplay defaults to Chromatic Mode, and I fed an older 1994 era Casio CTK-750 keyboard's General MIDI Piano patch as a test.  Very fast reliable triggering, no errors and No detectible latency due to the iConnectMIDI device's ultra fast  "USB Host to 5 pin MIDI" conversion function.

The FTP Controller Volume Control Pot sends MIDI CC#7, and the "Up and Down" buttons on the FTP "D-Pad" send MIDI Patch change commands, Up and Down. 
The default FTP mode will send all Note On/Off events on MIDI Channel #1
If I hold down the "Up" button on the FTP D-Pad while powering on the FTP Controller, the FTP will send each string's MIDI Note On/Off event on Six separate MIDI channels:

MIDI Channel #1 = High E
MIDI Channel #2 = B
MIDI Channel #3 = G
MIDI Channel #4 = D
MIDI Channel #5 = A
MIDI Channel #6 = Low E


But most of the time I just skip all above, and just connect FTP USB Receiver to my Ipad and go play music

The FTP "D-Pad" changes patches on SampleTank on my iPad

sine_3000

Quote from: Elantric on June 23, 2016, 02:43:26 PM
Quote- for testing *what*?

To listen to the GR-20 while playing the Guitar with FTP
The FTP transmits MIDI Note On/Off messages to trigger the connected MIDI tone module
but the FTP does not really care or need to know what MIDI tone module you are using

So what's being said here, is that once the I have connected a MIDI-out cable from the PC's sound card, to the MIDI-in port of the GR-20, what I will get from this is only to be able to audio-audition the patches, and the specific changes I am making per-bank via the FTP software, as I am triggering notes from my guitar via the FTP, which is connected to the PC and the FTP software?  Yes?

That much I can understand - although I haven't been able to trigger those notes on the GR-20 this way as of yet.  I even remembered to connect the GR-20 to my amp and turn it on ;-)

What I am also puzzled about, then, is how I can achieve the "load hardware synth patches into FTP software for editing and ultimately saving to FTP controller".  I would assume I would need a hardware-synth out to sound card in MIDI cable to accomplish this - to send the patch info into the computer, yes?

More Q's are forthcoming, I'm sure, but this will suffice for now.

shawnb

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 23, 2016, 04:15:16 PMSo what's being said here, is that once the I have connected a MIDI-out cable from the PC's sound card, to the MIDI-in port of the GR-20, what I will get from this is only to be able to audio-audition the patches, and the specific changes I am making per-bank via the FTP software, as I am triggering notes from my guitar via the FTP, which is connected to the PC and the FTP software?  Yes?
Yes.

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 23, 2016, 04:15:16 PMThat much I can understand - although I haven't been able to trigger those notes on the GR-20 this way as of yet.  I even remembered to connect the GR-20 to my amp and turn it on ;-)
Well, that's the FIRST challenge, then!  I suspect the problem here is getting the FTP's MIDI to your HW synth.  Now I understand your reference to using a DAW above, because that is one way to do it.  Unfortunately the FTP app doesn't let you specify a MIDI output port... 

So in this PC configuration, your PC has an FTP MIDI input port.  Your sound card has a MIDI output port, which you want to feed to your GR-20.  But how do you actually route the MIDI traffic from the FTP to your sound card?

Two possible ways...   Either using a DAW, or using a MIDI-routing utility such as MIDI-OX/MIDI Yoke. 

If you have a DAW, I suggest using the "two track" method.   Create 2 tracks... On one, load the FTP app as a VST.  This track solely exists to allow you to edit HW synth patches & communicate with your FTP.  It has no inputs or outputs, the FTP is sneaky and takes care of that itself. 

Your 2nd track is a simple MIDI track.  Its input is the Fishman FTP input port.   Its output is your sound card's output port.  This gets the MIDI from the actual FTP device to the GR-20 via your sound card. 

I think this is the piece you are currently missing...

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 23, 2016, 04:15:16 PMWhat I am also puzzled about, then, is how I can achieve the "load hardware synth patches into FTP software for editing and ultimately saving to FTP controller".  I would assume I would need a hardware-synth out to sound card in MIDI cable to accomplish this - to send the patch info into the computer, yes?
This is the part where you have really confused me.   No, there is nothing coming from your HW synth's output back into the FTP...   

Your HW synth patches are the ones you edit using the FTP app, as depicted in figures 12 & 13 on page 15 of the FTP manual (rev 2013/07/24). You can adjust things like dynamics, pitchbend mode & Program Change/MSB/LSB.  Once you've created those in the app, you move them to the user patch area (figure 13, page 15) and then press the Load Controllers button to get that set of dynamics/pitchbend/PC loaded to the FTP for usage while in HW mode. 

Once these are configured properly, you can bypass your PC and use your simpler FTP => Ghost => GR-20 setup.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

sine_3000

#17
EDIT:  Before I delete/strike thru all I have written below, let me edit this post to say that I have *finally* seen the up-until-now INVISIBLE box at the bottom of the Preferences menu!  The one that says "Hardware Synth"?!?!

God only knows how I missed that up until now.  It kind of was blending in with the fret board?  Who knows.  Anyway, I selected my sound card, and lo, I was immediately triggering the GR-20 thru the PC!

So now, I need to understand how to use the FTP software to save each GR-20 patch, with its own configurations, onto the FTP...

.......

Well, I have to admit my DAW skills have never been all that sharp.  I get confused really fast with tracks and arming and input/output, etc.  I use Reaper (and also Ableton), and this time I wasn't able to get Reaper to do anything for me.

However, I did open up MIDI-Ox and after adding and deleting devices a few times, I was able to accomplish what you said - triggering the GR-20 via the FTP, thru the PC and sending the MIDI signals out to the GR-20.

This was accomplished without even opening the FTP software, mind you.  I wasn't able to open the FTP software while MIDI-Ox had the MIDI control.  So, I wasn't able to configure any of the hardware patches as we have discussed.

As far as that part is concerned - the "configuring hardware patches in FTP software" - honestly, what I thought when I looked at those illustrations in the FTP manual was, that the hardware would send its patches in a bulk sent to the FTP controller, and they could be configured to the user's liking, and then saved onto the FTP, so that when each bank was scrolled thru, the saved config's would be activated thru the hardware.  That is what those illustrations look like, with their long list of hadware-named patches.  The manual says nothing about the user writing in all of those patch names manually, right?

So since I'm unable so far to have the FTP running while I'm triggering the MIDI thru the PC into the GR-20, I don't know how I'll be able to do that part, which I still think is essential.  My DAW skills are rusty, I'll admit. It takes me forever to get up to speed on that kind of stuff.

One last thing of note - as I was playing the GR-20 thru MIDI-Ox, what occured was that, when the FTP was in Basic mode (as opposed to Hardware Mode), I was able to scroll thru my saved patches with the FTP UP-Down buttons.  But, there was no pitch bending at all, or dynamic adjustments etc.

When I switched to Hardware Mode, I was only able to scroll between TWO patches, the first and the second, by pressing up and down.  I'm not sure what the implications of that are, but I would very much like to save some hardware patch configs onto the FTP to see of I can move beyond that limited functionality!

Any more advice?

shawnb

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 24, 2016, 03:18:44 PMI have *finally* seen the up-until-now INVISIBLE box at the bottom of the Preferences menu!  The one that says "Hardware Synth"?!?
Congrats!  One step at a time...

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 24, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
So now, I need to understand how to use the FTP software to save each GR-20 patch, with its own configurations, onto the FTP...
You can try doing it without the GR-20 connected.  Start small... 
(1) Create 10 FTP Hardware Synth patches, one each for your 10 favorite GR-20 patches. 
(2) For each patch, set the following:
   -  a good name
   -  the appropriate pitchbend setting (e.g., no pitchwheel for piano)
   -  start with dynamics towards the middle (unless you already know exactly how you want these set)
   -  pick or fingerstyle
   -  a unique PC & MSB per the table on page 41 of the GR-20 manual
(3) Arrange the user patches as desired in the first 10 slots of the User Patches screen in the FTP app
(4) Press Load Controller

Now to give it a shot...  Connect your FTP => Ghost => GR-20 and play.  Make sure to boot the FTP in HW mode.

If this doesn't work, I would next try programming each patch using the GR-20's "Learn" technique listed on pages 18-19 of the GR-20 manual.

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 24, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
This was accomplished without even opening the FTP software, mind you.  I wasn't able to open the FTP software while MIDI-Ox had the MIDI control.
I've found that setting up MIDI-OX first, before launching the FTP app, usually solves this issue. 

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 24, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
One last thing of note - as I was playing the GR-20 thru MIDI-Ox, what occured was that, when the FTP was in Basic mode (as opposed to Hardware Mode), I was able to scroll thru my saved patches with the FTP UP-Down buttons.  But, there was no pitch bending at all, or dynamic adjustments etc.
Basic Mode does support pitch bend by using Enter & Back, but the PBR is fixed at a useless 2 semitones...
Basic Mode only sends PCs, it will not send bank select.  MSB or LSB.

Quote from: sine_3000 on June 24, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
When I switched to Hardware Mode, I was only able to scroll between TWO patches, the first and the second, by pressing up and down.  I'm not sure what the implications of that are, but I would very much like to save some hardware patch configs onto the FTP to see of I can move beyond that limited functionality!
This is due to whatever user patches are in your User Patches screen when you press "Load Controllers".

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp