VG-99 Nylon String Model

Started by alexmcginness, January 20, 2014, 05:39:05 PM

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alexmcginness

OK, the Nylon was the first patch I tried on my 55. I got a patch from the guy on youtube that has this video.



I loaded that nylon patch into my 55 and no "hysteresis" problem!!!! Hmm, I re created the patch into my VG-99 which has had the "hysteresis" problem since I got it, and voilla...no "hysteresis" problems. Havent figured out exactly why its not there in his patch and IS in mine but there you go. All those years with this issue and now its fixed! Go figure. I attached the functioning VG-99 patch. Ive been noodling with this for a couple of days now and Im in Nylon heaven. The GR-55 patch can be DLd from the addy on this guys youtube vid.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

aliensporebomb

So you're saying you used the exact same settings he used in his 55 patch and applied them to your 99 patch?  Downloaded.  I do use the nylon model but I have to be real careful about very light legato fingering or I run smack dab into the problem. 

I'll sometimes use a down-pitched nylon model with compression and chorus to fake an chorused rhodes piano sound using compression or limiting but that's a pretty nice discovery.

Anyone else want to try this one?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

papabuss

All interesting patches are welcome in this forum. ;)
FENDER STRATOCASTER (1974); BRIAN MAY RED SPECIAL; VG 99; GR 55; Yamaha DX 7

Music was my first love and it will be my last (JOHN MILES)

alexmcginness

alien: I ported that patch over to my VG-99 matching the parameters from the GR 55 patch. The uploaded patch is tweaked a bit as I altered the guitar tone and I think I tweaked the reverb as well. I also have a seperate GK setting that is set higher than the one I have for my electric models on the 99, as I tend to play the nylon fingerpicked.
   Im now able to use the Nylon model live for stuff like tears in heaven and Shape of my heart. Its always been a struggle to play these tunes due to drop out on the top strings. Try it out and see for yourself. I was one of the loudest complainers when it came to the hysteries problem. I dont know what parameter settings cause it but copying the GR 55 patch over to my 99 seems to have solved it for me. Good luck with this.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Elantric

#4
QuoteI also have a seperate GK setting that is set higher than the one I have for my electric models
This is the secret to achieving VG99 Nylon Guitar Modeling with no hysteresis

GK Sensitivity set at "25" = VG99 Nylon Guitar Modeling Bug is present.

GK Sensitivity set at "65" = VG99 Nylon Guitar Modeling Bug is Not present.

alexmcginness

Elantric, Ive had a seperate GK setting for my Nylon patches almost from the get go and have always had the hysterious issues. I dont have them now. I dont know what parameter or combination of them makes the difference, but I can actually use the Nylon model now as an instrument instead of struggling with it. Bill Rupert posted a demo of the Nylon showing no issues, but not the patch he was using. I suspect there were some adjustments he was making to his patch that I wasnt in mine. I suppose I could noodle with the settings to find out what causes it, but Id rather just make music. If someone else zeros in on it please let us know.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Elantric

I can only report my findings
GK Sensitivity set at "25" = VG99 Nylon Guitar Modeling Bug is present.

GK Sensitivity set at "65" = VG99 Nylon Guitar Modeling Bug is Not present.

alexmcginness

Hey, what ever works. I just wanted to post a patch that fixed this issue for me. Maybe itll help others too.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Elantric

QuoteI ported that patch over to my VG-99 matching the parameters from the GR 55 patch. The uploaded patch is tweaked a bit as I altered the guitar tone and I think I tweaked the reverb as well. I also have a seperate GK setting that is set higher than the one I have for my electric models on the 99, as I tend to play the nylon fingerpicked.

What level is your GK Sensitivity set at ?

alexmcginness

the nylon setting is about 30 higher than the setting I use for elecrtics. But, this is always how Ive had it set and have had issues right from late 2007 until a few days ago when I bought my GR-55 and a spare 99. I first ported the nylon patch over from the 55 to the new 99 and no issues, then tried it on my first 99 that I bought in 2007 and, no issues. Same GK settings Ive been using for years on both 99s.
   Im not trying to stir up trouble, just offering something that was a fix for me. If it can help others that have had this issue Im happy to help.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Elantric

#10
Same here - Im just stating that I can resurrect the VG-99 Nylon Hysteresis Bug with a GK Sensitivity at 25 range for all strings using a GK-3, then it goes away if i set GK String Sensitivity to 65 range for all strings.

Quotenylon setting is about 30 higher than the setting I use for elecrtics.

I believe we are in agreement.

Its my experience  that a higher Gk Sensitivity setting is the critical path to achieve working Nylon Models on the VG-99, without the drop outs that occur when using a lower GK String sensitivity.

alexmcginness

My issues have never gone away with the higher sensitivity as Ive had the same GK setting almost from the start. Copying the patch from the 55 to the 99 fixed this for me. Ill check my old patch again as the issues should sill be there. They were when I came off the road for vacation in December. Ill let ya know.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

aliensporebomb

#12
I also found something that seems to be key to the hysteresis business:

I've always championed using a sensitivity of 25 or so.  I usually used 22 before.  Why?  Because when using the guitar to MIDI feature of the VG-99 it didn't seem to track very well with the sensitivity as high as 65.  Roland must have shipped it with the sensitivity set to 65 for a reason, wouldn't they?

The other thing, distorted guitar patches were manifestly too distorted at 65 - like insanely so.  I like distortion as much as the next guy but at 65 even "reasonable" distortion was like using a flamethrower and touching the guitar would create crazy noises just touching the body of the guitar.

So last night I tried 30 with this and everything was fine except ONE particular situation:  play hammer ons quietly on the first string without picking.  No dice.  Every other string is okay. 

I believe my GK cable is probably due for replacement.  Why?   I've had this thing since 2008 now.  That's five years.  Amazing.  And, it would be like using the same guitar cable for five years thru many gigs and recording sessions and just use at home.  Anyone have good recommendations for best replacement cables?  This one can be a spare. 

In the meantime I could probably get away with 35 or so.

I've always felt the first string was a little weak.  I use contact cleaner on the cable ends and use air duster to blow out the GK in on the 99 but it doesn't really improve it hugely.  Sometimes I'd set the first string 2-3 higher in terms of sensitivity. 

Seems to be a software update would have it so that "distorted sounds aren't too distorted, hysteresis goes away and guitar-to-midi works well" but they never did an update.

Here's my thinking: no wonder Roland NEVER found the hysteresis bug: all VG-99 units ship with a GK sensitivity of 65. 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

#13
QuoteHere's my thinking: no wonder Roland NEVER found the hysteresis bug: all VG-99 units ship with a GK [string] sensitivity of 65.
Bingo ! - and this (the fact that all VG-99 units ship with a GK String sensitivity of 65, not 25) was the basis of my own debate on the Nylon Hysteresis Bug with my contact at Roland, who apparently likes using "65" as a GK String sensitivity in the VG-99, which led to Roland telling me the VG-99 Nylon Hysteresis Bug does not exist!

Re GK13 cables - the 2004-2009 era D'Addario Planet Waves 13 pin cable was considered the best available.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/planet-waves-13-pin-midi-guitar-synth-cable

Today - probably order the Roland Cable from Roland. When you order the individual 13 pin cable from Roland, you get a better cable which is much better than the terrible cable that comes packed in the GR-55 with GK-3 combo pack.   

ffata

This is great info regarding 99 sensitivities!
I'd like to add my 02¢ FWIW.
When I first purchased my 99 in '07, I set it up with my GK setting to 25.
Les Paul internal GK3 kit
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4309.msg69086#msg69086
I thought, one setting and that was it.
Everything in general seemed to be passable, guitar tone-wise.
Some synth sounds seemed weak. The nylon guitar was not playing evenly across all strings.
I thought maybe it was somehow my fault.
I then discovered this thread:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4801.msg32551#msg32551

Bill Ruppert talked about hitting the GR-300 with a maxed out GK setting and the 300 sounded huge.
What I picked up from this was to make three GK settings, Low, Medium and High.
Low is 30
Med is 40 ish
High is 70

So whenever I load up a downloaded patch or program something from scratch and it doesn't seem to play evenly across the strings, I switch to a different GK setting and that has helped with the feel of my sounds/patches.
This is mostly for other than electric guitar type sounds. They are set to my Low setting.
Synth and others (banjo, nylon) vary between Med to High.

+1 Planet Waves 13 pin cables

Elantric

#15
ffata - i share your strategy, and I mentioned more options of using multiple GK Sensitivity settings  here

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1060.msg5412#msg5412

Elantric wrote >
Optimal GK Hex Pickup Settings. « on: August 19, 2008, 11:06:10 PM »
Quotego to page 46  of the VG-99 Owner's Manual and find "Using Different Guitar Settings in Each Patch" Follow the Steps for "Patch"

{The GK Settings can be specified individually for each PATCH. Use this setting when switching among multiple STRING SENSITIVITY SETTINGS as you perform.}


With the release  of the VG-99 firmware Rev 1.04 - we now have 4 additional GK PU type "memory slots" to store alternate string sensitivity levels with a new 2 band EQ for GK PU. these "Piezo PU Memory slots" can be useful  regardless of your actual GK hex PU type ( Roland GK-3 Mag Hex , or RMC or Ghost  Piezo Hex)

Many longtime VG users have realized that unlike its predecessors ,  the VG-99 is extremely sensitive to the hex PU String sensitivity, and quite often its desired to have separate unique string sensitivity settings that can by called up on the fly for specific patches when trying to get the best performance from the VG-99.

For example, the Roland factory in Japan ships the VG-99 with a default string sensitivity of "65" for the Roland GK-3 PU. On my Strat with .010 D'Addarrio round wound strings  this yields lack of headroom, lack of dynamic range, and lack of definition for most patches, specifically the Steel String Acoustic Guitar emulations - which will sound "rubbery" and nothing like an Acoustic guitar.   By lowering the Roland GK-3 PU String sensitivity down to the "20-30" range - suddenly the factory Acoustic guitar patches come to life, and have dynamic response, and timbre much closer to the targeted emulation. Most of the patches suddenly take on new dynamic range and respond to subtle changes in picking dynamics. which is something I like. 
A query of our Forum Members shows that majority of us with Roland GK-3 use a Sensitivity setting in the range of "20-30" for all strings. 


# Hot Tip -  However note that Many VG-99 Patches may work better with a hotter string sensitivity. Often "Guitar to MIDI" functions, or two handed EVH tapping styles respond better with a hotter string sensitivity than "20-30" - so the trick is  USE A DIFFERENT GK PU Memory Slot, and assign a different String Sensitivity setting for each GK PU memory slot. Use those PIEZO PU type memory slots  (even with a GK-3) and program several unique string sensitivities for the same guitar add 2 band EQ to taste.
The GK Settings can be specified individually for each PATCH. Use this setting when switching among multiple STRING SENSITIVITY SETTINGS as you perform.As with everything on the VG-99 - Adjust to taste! There is no wrong way - if it sounds good it is good.

   

Smash

So Alex - this nylon sound. I like it! Nothing special in terms of programming but it works well for me and sounds good. Cheers  :)

alexmcginness

Hey Smash, glad it works. It was meant to be a start for guys like me that were having hysterious issues with the 99. Ill post some alterations of it that I modeled from a Yamaha Nylon.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.