Netbooks as live vg99 synth/sampler engine?

Started by germanicus, November 10, 2008, 10:22:23 PM

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guitarnstuff

I have another question about the use of VST instruments for live use. Can the master tuning of the VG99 control (through midi) the tuning of all VST instruments running with something like Vstack or Forte? For example, I play in a situation where they still use an actual grand piano, which tends to go flat when the humidity is just so. Currently I tune the guitar to match and tune my midi module (Roland SC88) to match so that all of us don't sound like a bad Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center. I was wondering how this would work if playing different VST instruments through an attached laptop. Is their a way to set tuning globally for VST instruments in such a matter? I would appreciate your insights as I am new to the VST and midi worlds.

Jim Williams

Hey guitarnstuff,
The tuneing of your synth will follow the tuneing of your synth will match your settings of your guitar A. and you can set the range further in the VST or the rack settings. so if you use a drop D on guitar A the synth will be Drop D also, then you can go into the vst interface and use the transpose options and set it to be up one octave or any interval you choose. In forte you can go into midi routing tab in each rack, there will be 2 drivers for midi showing up vg-99 controle and vg-99 midi. to keep things simple disable one of them ( I usaly disable the midi one) then you can edit the midi chanels, use chanels 1-6 chanel one being your high e string (differnt midi paeramiters for each string). you can set the tuning of each string, turn the chanel on and off and set the range of the chanel. so you can run differnt programs on differnt strings and set the pitch of each one and you can even set the note range on each string. This is where you might have to know a little about the keyboard map. Forte is the only hoast that you can do all this in.

To answer any question about the computer to use, the little notebooks are not powerful enough. minimun system requirements are for instal and opening up your programs and it all stops there. you need a duocore processer and 4 gigs of memory for live playing. you can get laptops that are smaller in size but don't skimp on power, unless you just play around at home to entertain yourself. for live use you need all the headroom you can get.
gtrjimmy.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

guitarnstuff

Thanks gtrjimmy413:

I will have to experiment with the tuning following COSM A guitar. I do think that will work from the up or down a full half step. I am skeptical that it will make the softsynth follow an A=438 which is often the case of the piano that I frequently have to match. I wish acoustic pianos maintained tuning at A=440 in all weather LOL. However, I will experiment some more to test if VST synth follow the fine tuning of the guitar (vs alternate tuning).

I did end up ordering a used Fijitsu T4215 Tablet PC with a 1.8 ghz Duo Core (=3.6 ghz) and 3 gb of memory. I think that should work well. This will be dedicated to VG99 and vst softsynth (via Brainspawn Forte) only so I will do some tweaks to shut off whatever unneeded background processes are running. I found a good source for this and other VST info at http://www.kvraudio.com/   I am sure I will have more questions as I start to drive in.  I plan on testing well at home before I dive into a live gig. If stable, I anticipate putting my Roland SC88 midi module back on ebay where I got it.

guitarnstuff

I ended up with Brainspawn Forte plus EHCo. Forte is working really well and I am loving it. However, I am not having good luck with EHCo. EHCo is a Brainspawn add on that allows Forte to send program change messages back to the VG99. That way I can use the setlist,song, and scene features in FORTE to drive the sound changes on both products to avoid the tap dance on the FC300 to call everything up.

HOWEVER, the VG99 stops responding to the program changes intermittently (any where from a couple of minutes to an hour). Both VG99 and Forte synths continue to work fine but just that VG99 patches are not changed by EHCo. The only way that I can restore the cooperation between the units is to reboot both.  I'm wondering if any of you out there had this issue and found a way around it? I did use MIDIOX to monitor the midi stream to see if there was something unusual triggering the error, but nothing seems different when working vs not or at the point of not working. But then again, I am new to midi and might be overlooking something obvoius. Don't know if this is midi/EHCo related or driver related since I have to shut down computer and reboot.

I will continue to use FORTE...it is rock solid, user friendly, and very capable for live use. However, I really need to get EHCo working to be the total dream machine. I have emails into tech support and they are trying to be helpful, but I am not sure if they know much about the VG99 vs standard keyboard stuff.

A2theT

I just bought the MDG Flip.  Also known as the Intel Classmate or 2GoPC by CTL.

The touch screen and accelerometer are awesome.  I imaged and upgraded the firmware that I found on the net and then put Vista on it.  Works flawlessly and tons of battery life.  It has a 1.6mhz Atom.  Putting Forte and some soft synths on it today.  Will provide feedback.  I don't have my hopes up but we'll see.  This is the second tablet laptop I've bought.  (My HP is still the go to guy).  Its also the second netbook I've owned.
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

guitarnstuff

I think that I have EHCo in Forte working right now. In fact it ran well for at least 5 hours yesterday and didn't loose connection with the VG99.  I believe it my have been either a driver setting (light load unchecked) or that the computer was set (in the device manager) to allow the computer to shut down the USB port to save power. I also tried a bunch of other somewhat random and partially educated guesses at the problem like eliminating a VSTi that was acting a little buggy. So knock on wood...it's working fine and I might have prematurely blamed EHCo.

The possibilities are endless. I have each string playing different instruments or combinations of instruments seperately on each string plus I can filter to the midi messages so that the instruments are different at different parts of the neck on a given string. Blows my mind! This will keep me busy for quite a while! Especially combined with all the options in the VG99. So many choices so little time!

Jim Williams

I don't know what Echo does and how does it apply to working with Forte? I do all thoes things without the use of Echo.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

guitarnstuff

#32
Jimmy
Yes, Forte does most of what I have described. EHCo stands for external hardware controller. Instead of the VG changing patches in the soft synth the EHCo module changes the patches on the VG AND other midi stuff such as midi lighting equipment and other midi stuff such as mixers, the bass players patches, the vocal harmonizer, etc. Imagine having the scences in the set list controlling not only the patches on the your VG but also the lighting and mixer/effects scences for the entire band. Technnically the patches for the whole band could be controlled by ECHo (within forte) initiated by one step on a switch of your FC300 without leaving sys ex mode.  Possibilities are endless.

However if you only want the VG to controll the soft synth options in Forte and don't need the set lists/scences in Forte to controll external hadware then you do not need EHCo.

 

Hope that makes sense.
Chris 

Jim Williams

Thanks for the info Guitarnstuff,
At this point I don't see the need for all that but it is nice to know I can do it if need be. Most of the guys I play with are still in the stone age and midi is an evil they avoid with thier every breath. So for now I am pleased to just use Forte as a virtaul synth rack. I do plan to get a copy of Echo and try it out. It would be cool if did some postings on what you are doing and how others can do similar things.
Jimmy.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

guitarnstuff

#34
Jimmy
at this point I am still pretty new to it and am still figuring out the possibilities. In fact I am also new to midi.  I think one of the  biggest plus will be having multiple scenes within a song and having EHCo/Forte simultanously controlling  patches and settings on the soft synth and VG just by one tap of a switch. I'm not doing that particular sort of gigging currently, but linking midi lighting controll to each scene could add a little more glitz to  a band with limited (aka no) stage hands. I used to control lighting with a homemade manual switcher back in the day and it made for a lot of stuff to keep track of while still performing and interacting with audenice.

I will post more as I learn. Right now I need some time to mess with it but my kids activities will prevent that for a couple of weeks.

Chris   

Elantric

#35
How to Optimize Windows 7 Netbook for Audio Recording & Home Studio
by: EMERSON MANINGO on August 4, 2011 in RECORDING EQUIPMENT
http://www.audiorecording.me/how-to-optimize-windows-7-netbook-for-audio-recording-home-studio.html

http://www.audiorecording.me/windows-xp7-audio-recording-daw-tweaks-optimization-tips.html


It's surprising that netbook nowadays (as of August 2011) are becoming more popular in terms of usage. It is also much more affordable today to buy a netbook with 1.6GHz to 2.5GHz processor speed which is already using Intel Dual core technology with 2GB of RAM. Most of these netbooks are powered using Windows 7 operating system. Netbooks are smaller than laptops with typical 10.1inch screen. Also the trend in using netbooks for audio recording are increasing.

This guide will walk you through some optimization tips for your netbook. The objective is to make it run as fast as possible when doing audio processing task by optimizing RAM usage. In addition, your overall netbook speed and performance will be maximized. This tutorial will be illustrating the tips using one of the commonly used netbooks which is ASUS EeePC netbook Seashell series (10.1 in)

The most important optimizing factor in speeding up your netbook is your RAM usage. Random access memory (RAM) is very important when doing audio recording because any digital audio bits are temporarily stored in RAM for easy accessing by CPU. Yet even though you have 2GB of RAM, a typical RAM usage of netbook in an un-optimized environment will be running around 1GB to 1.5GB for a shared video memory environment. So if you start any audio recording task, you will have very little RAM space left and your netbook processes starts to slow down. Below are the suggested tweaks:

1.) "Disable" or set to "Manual" some of the Windows services. You can download this guide. http://www.audiorecording.me/tools/Manual_Disable_Windows7_services.pdf.zip

To use that guide, simply unzip it and open it with any PDF reader. Then it list down completely what are those Windows 7 services that can be safely turn to "Manual" or "Disabled". It is very clear in the screenshot provided. In your netbook, simply go to "Start" – "Control Panel" then click "Administrative tools". After that double click "Services". Adjust those services based on what is recommended on the PDF guide. After all are implemented, restart your Windows 7. It is important to note that some of the services are required for normal operation such as print spooler so leave it set to manual but "started" if you are always using a printer.

2.) Install Minimem RAM optimization tool. You can download it here:

http://main.kerkia.com/tools/minimem/download.aspx

Restart your netbook after the installation.

3.) Disable all graphics and aero features in Windows 7. Go to "Start" – "Control Panel" – "System" – then in your left click "Advanced System Settings". Go to "Advanced" then under "Performance" click "Settings". Click the radio button "Adjust for best performance". Apply it and click OK. Of course after implementing this setting your Windows 7 appearance looks very simple and not flashy as before. Remember that you are sacrificing these appearance features to make your netbook run/operate faster.

4.) Minimize the start up programs to a minimum. Go to Start, under "Search programs and files" click "msconfig". When you see the results, click on it. Go to "Startup" tab and then uncheck the following items:

a.) Adobe reader
b.) Adobe Acrobat
c.) Yahoo messenger
d.) Sidebar
e.) Skype
f.) Bluetooth software (if you are not by default using Bluetooth)

Click "Apply" and then restart your netbook.

5.) Turn those Windows features that are not important to audio recording to save some memory and disk usage. Go to Start – Control Panel – click "Programs and features" and then on your left, click "Turn Windows features on or off". Wait until all items are loaded. Uncheck those that are not important, see the screenshot below for some guide:



6.) If you plan to do an audio recording, you need to close any other programs that you are not using. For example browsers and other software. This consume a lot of system resources. If you are using Antivirus, set them to "game mode" to avoid them using a lot of RAM space. And do not run its scanner while doing any memory intensive task.



7.) If you have extra USB sticks (not used), you can use them as extra RAM using the Windows 7 feature "Ready Boost". You can read more details about that here:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/products/features/readyboost

8.) Clean all unneeded files and waste in your Windows 7 netbook using Ccleaner. You can download it here:

http://www.piriform.com/ccleaner/download

9.) In your desktop, close any remaining gadgets or sidebars except the ASUS on the top which are important to provide updates to your BIOS and other operations.

10.) Finally restart everything, wait for one minute to stabilize. Below is the final and optimized RAM usage of the netbook following the above suggestions:



And this is how the desktop of the optimized netbook would look like:



As you have observed, by following the tips outlined; it has managed to reduce the RAM usage after startup from usual 1GB-1.5GB to just around 500MB (ready boost feature not yet enabled). Now you have more RAM allotted for your audio recording tasks (around 1.5GB). Not only contributing to speed, but your netbook will now boot and shutdown very fast unlike before.



LPHovercraft

You forgot the two most important - and arguably the only two that matter for low latency laptop operation:

1) always run off of wall/outlet power, and
2) set your notebook to the 'high performance' power option - Control Panel -> System and Security -> Power Options -> Show Additional Plans -> High Performance
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

tekrytor

#37
The same optimization principals apply to XP, Vista, and even Linux and Mac recording systems. Audio recording is RAM consuming and most of these steps are RAM optimization by deactivating other features that consume RAM.

Although netbooks are becoming more powerful, they were not designed to be audio workhorses, rather a student tool for internet and note taking "on the cheap". They are under powered by design and will not run multiple VSTs, multi-track, and other real time operations at demanding levels. Caveat emptor, buyer beware...these are cute and capable, but physically limited devices. To do complex audio processing work, especially with Windows 7, as, much RAM and as many processors as you can find and/or afford is recommended, along with the optimizations recommended here. For simple audio recording tasks though, a NetBook can be a practical option. But so are many handheld recorders.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

LPHovercraft

I have to at least partly disagree with you. :-) Honestly, I think there are plenty of powerful machines available today, at a variety of pricing and functional levels.

For my own recent example, I just bought an Acer Iconia 6120 netbook - mainly for the multi-touch capability - for $800 brand spanking new. It has a 4-core i5 processor (albeit non-Sandy Bridge) and I replaced the internal drive with a 128GB solid-state drive for $94. Then I swapped the factory installed RAM for 8GB (2 X 4GB) for $40. The chassis is metal and the screens are Gorilla Glass - and it runs on Windows 7 64-bit. that's a sturdy, powerful package for less than $1000US.

Granted, I've added an external 750GB hard drive (another $100) and a Focusrite Saffire 6 USB audio interface ($199) but frankly I still haven't broken $1500 yet and I'm working with a dual multi-touch screen laptop that's more powerful than my DAW from 16 months ago.

So if you're smart about your shopping and take the good advice here and elsewhere on the web then you can come up with a really powerful (semi)portable rig.

(below is a quick shot of the new setup as I'm trying out various layouts before packing it up to move to a new place)

Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

mbenigni


tekrytor

Nice machine! 8GB in a NetBook and dual multitouch, very cool! And in such a portable and robust package. NetBooks have come a long way in a short time.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

Kevin M

Windows can be horribly annoying with its myriad of services. One in particular I turn off is the indexing service - this can cause the disk drive to churn endlessly at the most in-opportune times. Also, if this is a dedicated music system, turn off networking once you've installed what you need and eradicate the system of any and all virus protection software (this stuff is more like malware, in my opinion).

LPHovercraft

I tend to *not* disable too much with Windows 7, as it does a good job prioritizing processes after a period for it to see and understand your usage pattern. A lot of the reflexive shut-down of things is more a legacy pattern with XP, which tends to be more problematic (and the side-long issue of machine from that generation having less memory and weaker multi-threading)

But I 100% agree with stripping out as much bundle/corporate-malware as possible - which includes a bunch if built-in garbage from the vendor (in my case Acer) and the Microsoft-enabled gadgetry. Once I do that, and have all of the baseline drivers installed (before I put on my first audio app) I make a new backup/baseline system image with a boot disk to go along with it.

This means I can be fairly cavalier about certain things as I know I can 'nuke it from orbit' and reset the machine as needed. If you have a good and consistent backup policy you don't have to do quite as much fear-based shut-down of features and services such as networking.

That's like buying a nice TV and then never turning it on for the off-chance someone will see ambient light from the street and come back to steal it when you're not home. :-)
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

Kevin M

With respect to networking, I was thinking of performance rather than fear. :-).  My philosophy is if you don't need the service, don't turn it on. Everything uses resources, so keep as much RAM and CPU 'attention' to the task at hand - creating music.  Windows isn't as bad as it has a reputation for being, but there is a lot of room for improvement. I've happily made the switch to Linux at work and do much if my home computing (except music) on a Mac. I don't notice the unusually high disk activity on either of these two systems during idle times like I do on my Windows system.

LPHovercraft

Cool - I get what you mean. But it's a bit of a slippery slope - since you can spend more time turning things off than they're worth for a diminishing return.

You may see more disc thrashing because of Windows' aggressive memory fudging, but there are ways to nail that down (one of which is to add RAM and ditch virtual memory - literally the first thing I do on a new system).

However I can't imagine that disabling the TCP/IP stack would be of much benefit in the general case. That said, if the machine is set up to *try* to use FireWire or BlueTooth for networking, I'd nuke it from orbit for sure. :-) But as often as my music apps poll for updates and as much as I have done MIDI over LAN I just can't think of the opportunity cost being too great to shut the machine off from the outside world. But that's just me - everyone gets to do things their own way.

:)
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

LPHovercraft

And FWIW I'm platform agnostic as well, developing/testing on Mac and deploying into the LAMP/Java stack at the day gig. But when it comes to music - particularly streaming large numbers of virtual instrument voices from  RAM/disc *and* low latency audio card performance with direct input monitoring, Windows 7x64 is unbeatable. I've run both OSX and WinOS on the same physical platform and there really is no comparison.
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

Elantric


LPHovercraft

Yeah - I checked this video out *after* I spotted a guy demo'ing the last unit they had at Fry's to another person (who bought it). It's a good review and a fair appraisal of the unit. They were just over $1000 at Fy's so it was a blessing in disguise - found my own through eBay (new-in-box) for $800.

I'm still setting it up, and really REALLY loving it. It's somewhat funny that after using it for a while I catch myself at my main DAW reaching up to tap the standard monitor screen and wondering why nothing happened. (except leaving a fingerprint) :-)

It's amazing how quickly you can get through the perfunctories like email and clearing social networking queues - aside from its power/utility to handle audio. I don't even bother with garden-variety computing on my main machine any more. It really delivers on the promise of the touch interface with some real processing beef behind it.
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

tekrytor

That is an incredible "NetBook", well beyond the original NetBook concept really. I've been looking for a new PC, and this may be it. I really like the dual touchscreens for increased display area in the DAW and for displaying songs sheets. That it will even run a third external monitor is even better for mix down, post processing, etc. Very impressive!

Thanks for the tip LP!
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

LPHovercraft

Well I don't think the video chip set is strong enough to run three monitors. I think if you make an HDMI or VGA connection you lose the top monitor. My guess is the next generation will be Sandy Bridge based with stronger video chip set.

Also - it should be known that Windows 7 has a limitation that you can't actively gesture on two touch screens at the same instant. For most instances this is not a problem, as switching context doing things like using the virtual keyboard and then reaching up to flick the upper screen to scroll through a web page feels seamless. But if you're considering music applications where you'd use this as one contiguous surface, it won't happen on Win7.

I've emailed back and forth with Open Labs (MusicOS) and SmithsonMartin (Emulator Modular) and they have both confirmed this. Open Labs has a dual screen mode that accounts for this, and SmithsonMartin is working on an update that essentially does the same thing. There are ways to work around it, if you care about that stuff like I do. Basically you have to be sure to keep all of the virtual controls you might use simultaneously on the same screen.

One other thing I'm considering is activating the internal mini PCIe slot and putting a mini SSD in it for OS functions and using the HD slot for a 7200RPM drive. The external Hitachi drive is nice but it feels a little clunky to *always* have it attached. It's to the point that I've velcroed it to the lid so to I don't forget it. :-/
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft