VG-99 - Steely Dan

Started by op111, February 24, 2008, 07:52:03 AM

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op111

Anyone have any Steely Dan tones?  I'm trying to reproduce the tones of "Black Friday", but I'd settle (hah!) for anything Larry Carlton.

Here's what Wikipedia says about Mr Carlton's equipment

Gibson produces a signature Larry Carlton model based on Carlton's own 1968 Gibson ES-335, hence his nickname: Mr. 335. His other guitars include an iconic 1951 blackguard Fender Telecaster. He's also played the Gibson Les Paul. Today, Carlton plays Dumble Amplifiers. During the 1970's he often used an MXR Distortion+, MXR DynaComp compressor, Echoplex tape delay, and a Fender Princeton Reverb Amplifier. Carlton also played Valley Arts Guitars for many years; in the early 1990s Valley Arts produced a signed and limited-edition Larry Carlton guitar, a solid-body instrument that was something of a hybrid between a Les Paul and Fender Telecaster. Valley Arts is now part of the Gibson family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Carlton


Elantric

#2
Here's what i know. I'm a long time Steely Dan Fan -  I was probably the 1st guy in my group of friends in Chicago in 1974 playing the "Mu" chords they used - I still have a wonderful steelie dan songbook with liner notes by Denny Diaz, who explains all the chord voicings - + advice from  Walter Becker &  Donald Fagen.  Well worth the $4.95 list price I paid in 1975 - right up there with my 1969 "Meet the Led Zeppelin" 1st album songbook - with Jimmie page liner notes - List price $2.95 right on the cover.  But thats another story.

I toured a lot in the 1970's in cover bands playing kid charlemain, Dont take me alive, Reeelin, Rickie, Peg (jay Graydon on that one)

Band broke up at end of 1979, I was in LA and responded to an ad in the Recycler - basically like "Easy Ads" -or craigslist  but in printed form. (pre internet guys)  Every thursday - you picked up Music Connection. Recycler, LA Weekly to find work, or good deals on gear ( like my 1966 vox AC30 for $125). I needed work - and wanted to stay in music as opposed to aerospace- despite my engineering degree.  I responded to an ad for "Bench Tech - Music repairs"  - turned out it was Valley Arts Guitar in Studio City.

Elantric's Bio
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=82.0
I had assumed Paul Rivera was still there - but it was Pete Gehrlings who was burned out after 6 months on the job.( at critical mass" was his own words) who gave me the job as the new repairman. Soon Stevie Fryette (VHT Amps) was hired too, and both of us repaired lots of gear. I had a hand in designing a few things there too as both a guitar repairman, luthier, amp service manager, and spearheading the MIDI keyboard department. during 7 years there. My 1st day on the job, Jay Graydon wanted my opinion on Wah wah pedals. Next day Lee Ritenoir and Tommy Tedesco were done with sessions up the street - and just came in to  hang around for a few hours and talk about session life.  This was regular daily stuff. I should write a book - I was the fly on the wall at first and a quick learner.  but Larry Carlton was in Valley Arts a lot. I repaired all his gear - the 335, his 1975 Mark One Mesa Boogie, Shobud Volume pedal. He was doing those Fender Super Bullet ads at the time ( see 1982 Guitar player mags) He liked the Super Bullets because they are like the GHS "Gus" strings - a polished round wound that makes less fret noise on recordings.

All these guys play guitar and it just flows like a river winding through all manner of terrain.

So  -a  Princeton Reverb is a great amp. Even the Post CBS chrome ones are still the same circuit up until 1974 - so any pre 1974 Princeton Reverb is a great amp for those buttery round sustain solos. ( but it makes a terrible Surf Amp - need a Twin or Dual showman to do the Dick Dale thing) Every studio in LA had a Princeton  or a Deluxe Reverb in the house amp arsenal. lots of reasons why. The reliability of Fenders, (Studio engineers know what amp does what just like what mic does what )- low watts, the Jenson  alnico speaker, the Rectifier tube , and small power supply caps that are not capable of supplying the current demands to accurately reproduce the input signal when played aggressively - turn the amp to "10" plug in a gibson, and the notes feel more like you are squeezing toothpaste from a tube.  Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezers were in everyones gig bag too. But Larry had developed this technique that sounded like a compressor,  it was like butter - but he was  using a Shobud Steel guitar Volume pedal and played  through small tube "house amps" in whatever studio he was working that day. By 1980 he was using a Mark one Mesa Boogie with EVM 12H, by 1983 he dabbled with a Rivera designed Fender Twin  - then  by 1985 Howard Dumble was supplying amps.

So  -For the steelie Dan sessions  Larry probably used  a 1967 ES-335 with  Dunlop 6100 fret wire, stock PUs (that i had to pot in wax one time because they became microphonic.)   his Shobud volume pedal,  a DI Splitter box ( to record the dry straight guitar PU tone on a seperate track - adds back the attack should the miked Tube amp track be too inarticulate on fast runs)  and (Pre-1975) a stock 1964 Black Face Princeton Reverb, post 1975 ( Royal scam) a Princeton wiith Paul Rivera stage 3 mods ( a pull boost, a master volume, a 6 position vari-tone mid EQ selector, and beefed up power supply.) post 1976 until 1983 he had the Mesa Boogie Mark One in a walnut cab.

Another thing people forget which adds significantly to the Guitar sound on records - post mic compression, and limiting (Urie 1176, Teletronix LA-2A), EQ, Reverb and the old analog Mag tape saturation - which meant you often had a better rock guitar sound if you pegged the VU meter on the tape recorder into the red the whole time. Not true for most Steelie Dan Records - but it was there if needed - but my point is that if you heard the Raw speaker cab mic return from any of these sessions prior to all the processing i have mentioned in this paragraph -  you would be surprised how much it might sound like something you typically hear on your own basic tracks - but add the post production mastering - and most importantly  - Ears and Talent.

Elantric

#3
an interesting Steely Dan story - At my day gig- a co-worker was the alignment tech at the Village Recorder studio in LA. He was there when the Dan recorded "Show Biz Kids". He told me they recorded at 30 ips of the basic track of the girls singing "Goin to Lost Wages, Lost Wages, Going to Lost Wages, Lost Wages" - and they duped that down to 2 track - cut and spliced that tape into a huge loop of just that phrase - repeating for hours - driving everyone nuts in the building  - they had improvised all manner of spare empty take up reels strategically placed on various barstools and tables in the control room to act as tape guides - to allow the loop to playback  on an ATR100 2 track - while they laid down lead vocals and slide guitar played by Rick Derringer of "hang on sloopy" and Johnny and Edgar Winter fame onto the Ampex 16 track.

Elantric

Now  - lets get to work and build those patches!

op111

 :o WOW :o

That is *so* much more cool information than I was expecting.  Thanks!!!   :D

It's nice to know that the Gods are real people, with real equipment that needed fixing.  It is so easy to loose that connection in the haze of Guitar Marketing.

Thanks again
P

Elantric

#6
>It is so easy to loose that connection in the haze of Guitar Marketing.

As a population, we are "marketed too" at every opportunity.  In that arena, some guys give up guitar after hearing these talents in person.

Its like being in the same room with Stevie Wonder - as he vamps and tries out various composing ideas. Talk about a spiritually moving experience. wow

Tommy Tedesco would always just pick up a $12 classic student guitar, and just rip up like Steve Vai - what a monster player. But in 1953 he was just a contract dry wall installer from the San Fernando Valley  - who dabbled and had a passion for guitar, and the guts to hit the Hollywood Studios.

I walk away knowing every one of us has the power within us - if we decide to apply the discipline to cultivate it. Rather like watching the finale 15 minutes of "The Wizard of Oz"   

I know a few of us suffer from GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) - and bought the VG-99 thinking  "its the only thing keeping me away from stardom!".

Its just a tool.

The most important thing is you.

op111

Actually I bought the '99 as a way to avoid GAS... I figure I now own just about every guitar and every amp I will ever need ::)

... and I can throw my entire collection on my back  ;D

pfflyer

Steve, I had the pleasure of working with Tommy for a couple of years when I was in L.A. in the late 70's,early 80's. I worked on the tv crew of Fernwood 2Night and then it became America 2Night the second season. Tommy was the guitarist in the Happy Kyne Orchestra (Frank DeVol). Tommy would do some amazing riffs on the show. Host Martin Mull played some nice jazz guitar and even entertained the cast and crew at the wrap parties. Great memories.

Elantric

#9
Yes its was a wonderful time for sure.

In our  "Introduce your self area , I have a pic of me and my workbench at Valley Arts  - from 1981.

We always had the house band from the ABC show "Fridays" hanging  out, john Belushi, Tommy Chong, EVH trying Bass guitars, Scott henderson, Buzz Feiten, Robben Ford, Lukather, Jay Graydon, Lee Ritenoir, Lary Carlton, Tommy Tedesco, Mitch holder, Tiny Timbrell,  Laurendo Almeida,  - all in the same room just hanging out. Lots and lots of stories.

Here's a  good Tommy Tedesco story, As you know Tommy was a very large man, and at a recording session he once returned from lunch break  and accidently knocked over half a dozen vintage guitars that were lined up against a wall - they fell onto each other like dominos -  leaving a few marks and dinging the paint.

The recording engineer said" Tommy  - you need to treat your guitars with more respect!"

and Tommy just replied"  Hey - just look at my body - i dont even treat my body with respect - what makes you think I treat my guitars any differently?


I miss him - along with many many others.

Paresh

I was a student at Musicians' Institute in Hollywood (GIT back then) in the late 70's, soon after it started. It was cool being around TT & many other guys like Howard Roberts in a casual way. Do you remember when TT won the Gong Show as a 300 pound guitar playing ballerina, with pink tutu? That takes some nerve...no wonder he did well in the studios.
paresh

Whip

Went to see Steely Dan on friday and was again blown away. They did a load of stuff off Royal Scam. As usual, it was outstanding!
Anybody come up with any patches? There was a lot of action on this thread and it kinda petered out?
Thanks .........Whip
Roland VG-99 + FC-300,
Roland GR-55, US-20
SG,BC Rich, Lado, Strat, Godin, GK-2a's & GK-3, RMC
Bose L1 M2 & Compact's & T1's
Have Fernandes Sustainers on most guitars. They are a must  ;)

Elantric

I'm seeing them in 2 weeks  - cant wait !!

GeePeeAxe

Hello Everybody!

I have a usable patch for "Kid Charlemagne" and other Steely Dan songs.

Because Larry Carlton defines himself as a blues-player, I´ve put the
patch into the "Blues-section"

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,942.0.html

justinmorell

Quote from: Elantric on February 24, 2008, 09:36:47 PM
a Princeton wiith Paul Rivera stage 3 mods ( a pull boost, a master volume, a 6 position vari-tone mid EQ selector, and beefed up power supply.)
Elantric,

I know this is an old thread, but I just came across this post and had to respond.  I have one of these Paul Rivera modded Fender amps.  Mine is a SF Vibrolux.  It has the 6 position varitone and the master volume, but not the boost.  The amp was actually my dad's originally, and I kind of stole it from him, slowly, so that he didn't notice until it was already gone.  :)  In fact, you may have even worked on this amp or some of his other stuff during the Valley Arts days--he was very busy in the studios for many years into the '80s.

I have looked inside this amp at the varitone mod, and have tried to recreate it on another amp.  I noted the cap values and the sequence.  Best I can tell, it's put in-line with the treble pot, and it's "controlled" in a sense with the treble knob.  The setting I like the best is the least-scooped mids.  I hear the sound as very mid-heavy, with a LOT of bass roll off, and a fair amount of treble roll off (I usually run the treble pot at max or near max, and the bass knob does almost nothing in this setting).  The amp, however, has some other issues (strange noises, etc.) that seem to be impossible to correct, and I am also terrified that the amp might disappear or fall apart at some point.  I am wondering if you might be able to give me some idea of how this mod works and how to recreate it on a similar Vibrolux, since I have not yet had much luck trying to do it on one of my other amps.  Is it really as simple as placing the caps in line with the treble control, or is there something else that Rivera would have done to the channel to create this thick-mid sound?  Would the thick sound be the result of ALL of the caps in line, or the LEAST number of caps in-line (I'm guessing all, but I really don't know).

Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Justin
justin

GR-55, VG-99

Elantric

#15
I'll look in my schematics catalog and get back to you.

In the meantime - here's some good reading on this topic
http://www.tone-lizard.com/Mods_and_Odds.htm


http://www.theguitarcolumn.com/2009/09/steve-lukathers-paul-rivera-modified.html

justinmorell

Thanks for these links.  I'll read over them.
justin

GR-55, VG-99

aliensporebomb

I've got a patch I've been working on for a while and it will probably work well for this kind of thing.  There's some some adjustments I want to make with it though.

Love the Tedesco stories.  I read that guys column in guitar player month after month.  After a while it was like this big guy in a tutu giving me advice.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.