GR-55 : Q&A

Started by ddlooping, February 03, 2011, 09:03:50 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

3dognate

Quote from: pjmuck on February 17, 2011, 07:16:04 AM
I think it's been thoroughly explained by many already why this would be needed: independent control over PCM and COSM signals. Why do you assume everyone has a Marshall stack they're hoping to transform into a Vox-AC30 or something? My amp IS a FR Atomic Reactor, so I depend on whatever COSM generated amp and effects I've created to BE my amp(s) per patch. But let's consider people currently using tube amps etc. who aren't even interested in the COSM amp modeling and just want to use the GR-55 as a dedicated effects processor for their amp. Can't be done! Many people here, including myself, were hoping to use the GR-55 as an all-in-1 device and phase out much of our older gear. Based on your statement, people should employ additional gear to process the GUITAR OUT signal just to reclaim what they're most likely already doing with their previous gear, which defeats the purpose/hope of using the GR-55 exclusively. In my current gear, I don't even use the GUITAR OUT jack of my GR-33, since my Godin guitar has multiple outs, so I simply run a 1/4" out the Godin into my GT-Pro and run the 13 pin into the GR-33 only. My hope was to streamline everything down to one processor/one 13 pin cable, and the GR-55's limitations are simply not going to allow me to do that. Clearly Roland wants you to use the GR-55 with pre-existing gear, otherwise they wouldn't bother offering you different amp setup options (Line Out, JC-120, combo, stack, etc). But if they're even going so far as to give you the option of sending your COSM-based guitar sims out the GUITAR OUT jack, then why not the additional option of ALL COSM amp sims/effects too? If I can't use my clean guitar/COSM guitars with COSM amps/effects unless I route everything to the PA, then the GUITAR OUT jack is useless to me, since I'd have to keep my GT-Pro (which I was hoping to get rid of) just to process the signal again. (And since I depend on the GR-33's Arpeggiator too, it looks like I won't be able to get rid of that either.  >:()

You're attachment to utilizing the Atomic Reactor for guitar only is the issue here. I too with my GR-20 was not using the Guitar out... I was running a stereo cable from my guitar to a splitter and running the Piezo output to the Mixer via DI, the Mag pickups to my GSP 1101 rig which fed a power amp which fed a 4x12 cab. The 13pin cable only went to the GR-20 and that was just fed to the mixer direct.

Now I'm just running 13pin to the GR-55 with stereo outs going to a small mixer, the guitar out going to the GSP-1101 which is now going direct to the small mixer. And I'm mixing my signals there and feeding the main mixer a sub mix, and also outputing a separate output from the mixer to my own monitor... So I'm monitoring the GR-55 and GSP1101 from the same source. I'm picking and chosing via patch wether or not to make use of the GSP1101 or not or to feed it the COSM Guitar model....

I'm fairly certain that this is the way the usage was designed and implemented. When I was reading the manuals thats what I gleened out of it... and is why I've gone to a FRFR monitor.

Don't think that I don't understand where you are coming from and how you expected or hoped it'd work... It's just that it's not designed for that... maybe it's an option later with a firmware update...
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

Spider

Quote from: pjmuck on February 17, 2011, 07:16:04 AM
Clearly Roland wants you to use the GR-55 with pre-existing gear

Sad but true. This is one answer for all our question...

3dognate

Quote from: Spider on February 17, 2011, 08:16:22 AM
Sad but true. This is one answer for all our question...

Or just use the stereo outs for everything mixed together if you are using internal sounds only.
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

Spider

Quote from: 3dognate on February 17, 2011, 08:36:54 AM
Or just use the stereo outs for everything mixed together if you are using internal sounds only.

For me it's not a problem but instead of one piece of roland/boss hardware one the floor (gr55) I will still have two (+GT10) or I put gr55 into rack.

sonnyv

there are indeed workarounds,
but the reason i'd want the full cosm patch out of the guitar output is so that i could direct a stereo pcm signal to a separate pa system.

Elantric

#155
Quotecosm patch out of the guitar output

Perhaps we need a Glossary

There are several COSM modeling elements inside the GR-55.

But only the COSM Guitar Modeling is available to feed the Guitar Out jack.

You may not send the COSM Amp and COSM FX to the GR-55 Guitar Out Jack.

A firmware upgrade will not solve this either.

Roland figured they would give the GR-55 owner essentially the functionality of a Variax  -to feed the COSM modeled guitar tone and Alt tuning to third party guitar processors.
 

3dognate

QuoteRoland figured they would give the GR-55 owner essentially the functionality of a Variax  -to feed the COSM modeled guitar tone and Alt tuning to third party guitar processors.

And I thank them for it. That's pretty cool... and I get independant control of my guitar tone by using it this way...

But if you are going for the all in one device route. You only nee the ability to monitor one source (Two 'cause it's stereo.) But if you are monitoring the synth in your wedges or inner ear mons. Then you're already there. The unit has a built in Per-Patch mixer for PCM1-PCM2-Model-Normal Pickup levels... There's your independent control... (Granted it's a little limited. You can't tweak on the fly well.)
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

mbenigni

QuoteBut if you are going for the all in one device route. You only nee the ability to monitor one source (Two 'cause it's stereo.) But if you are monitoring the synth in your wedges or inner ear mons. Then you're already there. The unit has a built in Per-Patch mixer for PCM1-PCM2-Model-Normal Pickup levels... There's your independent control... (Granted it's a little limited. You can't tweak on the fly well.)

All well and good, but "all in one device route" doesn't necessarily imply a single unified monitoring solution.  All I've been saying is it would be very handy if the Guitar Out could be configured with say, a phaser, or an overdrive pedal inline, in those cases where I'm running that output directly to a guitar amp.  The technology is all there, after all.

Apologies if I'm beating a dead horse by now.  I'm not gonna go tilting at windmills on this point.  :)  There are workarounds with the L+R outs and I'll just have to program for them.

res075oh@gte.net

Okay; now I can stumble through the menu to the list of PCM tones and run them from 01 to 910.  Is there any SIMPLE way to listen to a tone that you have selected to see what it sounds like?  I'd prefer to not have to create a patch to hear each one; but rather be able to listen to [for example] the available bass tones to choose what I want to use for a patch.  Is that possible; if so how?

Thanks,
James


gumtown

Quote from: res075oh@gte.net on February 17, 2011, 05:32:55 PM
Okay; now I can stumble through the menu to the list of PCM tones and run them from 01 to 910.  Is there any SIMPLE way to listen to a tone that you have selected to see what it sounds like?  I'd prefer to not have to create a patch to hear each one; but rather be able to listen to [for example] the available bass tones to choose what I want to use for a patch.  Is that possible; if so how?

Thanks,
James

What i do to audition the tones is..
select any user patch, disable PCM 2, modeling and Normal PU, leaving only PCM 1 synth tone 'on', then scroll over the tone and spin the dial to where you want to go, the tones will be heard as they change.
The Left <> Right scroll buttons seem to move you quicker though categories.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Spider

I read again GR55's user manual and...

Imagine: You are newbie. You buy for first time the guitar synthesiser. You  RTFM... and you discovered that Roland make piece of hardware for an engineer or for a musician-engineer. Not for player like you... What the hell is LFO, HPF? What is TVF, TVA, ADSR etc What all those parameters do...
Some times few pictures are better then words. The best is show few examples (look at Yamaha manuals) but what for... you are probably well educated engineer or it's your tenth synth...


Zummooz

Quote from: Spider on February 17, 2011, 11:01:43 PM
What the hell is LFO, HPF? What is TVF, TVA, ADSR etc What all those parameters do...
This help you at all, to understand things clearer  ;)
http://sequencer.de/synth/index.php/Category:Sound_Synthesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesizer
The  Fact  Is......"We  are  all  tactile  creatures  &  physical  interaction  has  always  been  a  big  part  of  making  music"

sheguitarplayer

#162
Quote from: mbenigni on February 17, 2011, 11:02:00 AM



Apologies if I'm beating a dead horse by now.  I'm not gonna go tilting at windmills on this point.  :)  There are workarounds with the L+R outs and I'll just have to program for them.

Im very interested in this as I want to use the cosm guitars and wah/phaser etc in the GR55 to feed a mArshall head live whilst feeding the PCM sounds to the desk.
Is the hard panning left/right doable and if so do you have to sacrifice an effects block to do so?
Cheers

Andy

Spider


Elantric

This thread may be of interest for those new to the terminology too
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=641.0

mbenigni

QuoteIm very interested in this as I want to use the cosm guitars and wah/phaser etc in the GR55 to feed a mArshall head live whilst feeding the PCM sounds to the desk.
Is the hard panning left/right doable and if so do you have to sacrifice an effects block to do so?
Cheers
Andy

That's the million dollar question, and for the moment I'm not sure.  It's a little ironic that I was one of the 1st people to get his hands on a GR-55, but I've been insanely busy every minute since, and have hardly been able to use it.  (Though I think I've spent as much time writing about it as playing through it.)

Hoping to test this by Sunday, Monday at the latest, and will let you know.  Unless someone else has already tried?

mbenigni

QuoteImagine: You are newbie. You buy for first time the guitar synthesiser. You  RTFM... and you discovered that Roland make piece of hardware for an engineer or for a musician-engineer. Not for player like you...

Even if you do know a lot about synths and music tech (and even you have an engineering degree, for that matter) Roland documentation is famously poorly written.  Just a joyless collection of facts and cross-references, with very little mention of practical application, musical context etc.  This is one area where they could really stand to take notes from Line 6 (whose manuals are sometimes more exciting than their actual products LOL.)

Elantric


Orren Merton

Quote from: Spider on February 17, 2011, 11:01:43 PM
Imagine: You are newbie. You buy for first time the guitar synthesiser. You  RTFM... and you discovered that Roland make piece of hardware for an engineer or for a musician-engineer. Not for player like you... What the hell is LFO, HPF? What is TVF, TVA, ADSR etc What all those parameters do...

That is something I personally think about all the time, because as a freelance pro audio writer I write manuals as well (currently working on the manual for a digital guitar product). It's a balancing act. You want to be very accurate and complete, but you also want to "talk in guitarist's language" so to speak. And space is a concern. You can get so carried away in giving a "synthesis for dummies" tutorial, that your manual is 500 pages long, filled with graphs that look like engineering schematics!

So how do you explain the concept of an LFO to someone who's bought a roland-ready strat and a GR-55 but never played a synthesizer or done any digital recording in an application that included LFOs in plug-ins? Or should the manual assume that the average newbie teenager is going to buy an Epiphone Les Paul and a Crate amp not a GR-55, and that even if the GR-55 expands into the mainstream, the audience for a 13-pin device is going to be older and a bit more willing to learn/experiment?

Not every company gets it right—as others have noted, Roland manuals are notoriously bad translations of already-poor Japanese language manuals. In the guitar-product world, I'd say that Line 6 gets it more right than not (and no, I didn't write it :) ). But I'd say that in some ways, Line 6 errs the other direction, with too much language in the "dude, like, turn it up, man!" style, which is cute during the first read-through, but when using the manual as a reference loses it's charm.

Personally, my opinion is a good combination is to have a well-written, not-complicated-while-still-being-accurate-and-thorough reference manual, and tutorial videos that do more of the "hand holding." And I mention this because as users, I think this is something that we can actually do something about. There is no chance that Roland is going to improve or rewrite/retranslate their manual. However, if Roland USA gets enough emails, there's a good chance that they could get one of their techs or demo guys here in L.A. to make some tutorial videos. And if they don't, thanks to the glory that is YouTube, we can make them for ourselves! That's not going to improve Roland's manual, but it's certainly going to make learning the GR-55 a more player friendly experience.

Orren

Elantric

QuoteBut I'd say that in some ways, Line 6 errs the other direction, with too much language in the "dude, like, turn it up, man!" style, which is cute during the first read-through, but when using the manual as a reference loses it's charm.

I totally agree with that - I wish they had a separate "Mr Hip" Quick start manual, and leave that out of Main manual.

I tend to like Yamaha manuals

MCK

Mr. Hip sounds like a great idea we could put together.

Spider

#171
Quote from: Orren Merton on February 18, 2011, 09:55:41 AM
So how do you explain the concept of an LFO to someone who's bought a roland-ready strat and a GR-55 but never played a synthesizer or done any digital recording in an application that included LFOs in plug-ins? Or should the manual assume that the average newbie teenager is going to buy an Epiphone Les Paul and a Crate amp not a GR-55, and that even if the GR-55 expands into the mainstream, the audience for a 13-pin device is going to be older and a bit more willing to learn/experiment?

Yep. But Roland gose very minimal way and don't even explain what TVF, TVA abbreviation (? it's correct world for it??) means. Look for example on this manual, it's not a matter of space but general idea: http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/xg/MU100RE1.PDF

mbenigni

QuoteLine 6 errs the other direction, with too much language in the "dude, like, turn it up, man!" style

LOL fair enough - now that you mention it, that tone can get to be a little patronizing, particularly where they're covering really basic stuff how like how to plug things in and turn them on.  But I usually just ignore all that as being intended for less experienced owners.

I'm more referring to the fact that they'll put a historical spin on the equipment they've modeled, and its typical applications.  It helps keep you enthused about the product, and it helps put things in context so you understand the way things are organized a bit better.  With Roland, you might just well be reading about widgets or tax exemptions or whatever.

sheguitarplayer

Quote from: mbenigni on February 18, 2011, 07:33:17 AM
That's the million dollar question, and for the moment I'm not sure.  It's a little ironic that I was one of the 1st people to get his hands on a GR-55, but I've been insanely busy every minute since, and have hardly been able to use it.  (Though I think I've spent as much time writing about it as playing through it.)

Hoping to test this by Sunday, Monday at the latest, and will let you know.  Unless someone else has already tried?

Thanks for that.

Andy

res075oh@gte.net

I was afraid it would require something like that.  Oh, well; if I ever learn to use this thing I may not be the biggest midiot in the world! [ggg]

Thanks,

James
.
.


Quote from: gumtown on February 17, 2011, 07:18:35 PM
What i do to audition the tones is..
select any user patch, disable PCM 2, modeling and Normal PU, leaving only PCM 1 synth tone 'on', then scroll over the tone and spin the dial to where you want to go, the tones will be heard as they change.
The Left <> Right scroll buttons seem to move you quicker though categories.