GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?

Started by adagosto, August 04, 2015, 11:09:02 AM

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adagosto

When I use the "Guitar Out" an connect that to the "Guitar In" on my amp, the Normal Pickup tone is very thin and lacks a significant amount of "tone".  It sounds shallow and almost tinny and lacks all the low end.

I tried connecting the GK-55 Guitar Out into my pedal board as well as directly into the amp with no change in tone.  I did make sure I was actually hearing the Normal Pickups and not the modeled guitar tone.  When I added the modeled sound it actually sounded much better, but nothing like when I plug the guitar directly into the amp.

Is this something that can be fixed/controlled/improved??  Or is this kinda normal for the GK-55.

Thoughts?

mbenigni

Not clear as to why your signal improves when you run through your pedal board.  There must be some buffer/ impedance matching helping you out there.  But yes, it is a known problem with the GR55 that the Guitar Out has a low signal-to-noise ratio.  That may be related to what you're hearing.  One workaround is to avoid use of the Guitar Out and route your dry guitar signal left and your wet/synth signal right (or vice versa).  This introduces some complications, though: in order to maintain that separation, you have to avoid use of the stereo post effects (delay, reverb, chorus, eq) which will otherwise blend those two signal paths.

Other alternatives have been discussed, including hardware mods.  If you search for "pin 7 output" you will probably find several threads on the subject.

Elantric

Correct,  the GR-55's "Guitar Out" does suffer with poor noise 

Is a result of the GR-55 design.

The GR-55's "Guitar Out" jack offers the ability to select between normal Mag PU Tone, or COSM Modeling Tone with Alt Tunings - all signals are run through an A/D >DSP> D/A and this significantly changes  the characteristics of your HiZ Instrument magnetic pickup tone.   


More details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3196.msg111732#msg111732
I have learned  the details of why the GR-55 Guitar Output has more noise than expected.

On other Roland/Boss GT/GP/GR processors the "Guitar Output  provides a "Dry normal pickup" signal output only - using an Op amp buffered (all analog) signal path.

The Roland GR-55's Guitar Output circuit is very different. (see below)  The Dry normal pickup" signal (from GK Pin #7) is being sent to an Analog to Digital converter and fed into a DSP, then a Digital to Analog converter. There is no Dry normal pickup direct Out analog signal path like other gear.

Roland designed the GR-55 in this manner with a goal of allowing the option for the GR-55 to feed its COSM Guitar modelling and DSP Alt tuning signal to your other Guitar FX and Amp (via the "Guitar Out" jack), to function rather like a Variax. This was the lowest cost method for Roland to achieve the unique attributes / features.  Remember for any GR-55 preset, the GR-55's Guitar Output can be reconfigurable for choice of :

* Dry Normal PU sound  Only
* COSM Modeled Guitar Sound
* Muted ( no Sound)

They use the DSP to provide this re-routing, which was implemented at a lower cost ( and fewer parts) than a low noise FET analog switching circuit.
 

Start reading at first post in this thread for details on methods of modifying the GR-55 to provide a "Dry normal pickup" signal output only - using an all analog) signal path for lower noise.



adagosto

Hi.

To be clear, there is NO difference in tone between the pedal board hookup and when I plug directly into the amp.

So the best work around it to run a cable from the guitar directly to my amp and NOT use the GK-55 Guitar Out?

That's not the best, but it will work.  I really just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something wrong!

Thanks!!

mbenigni

Quote from: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 12:55:19 PM
To be clear, there is NO difference in tone between the pedal board hookup and when I plug directly into the amp.

Sorry - right, I can see where I misunderstood above.  Yes, the best workaround - assuming you don't want to modify your GR55 or give up the post-effects - is to run a 2nd cable.

Elantric

Quote
So the best work around it to run a cable from the guitar directly to my amp and NOT use the GK-55 Guitar Out?

Correct - that's what I do most of the time when I use my GR-55

adagosto

Hi.  I re-read what I wrote and my wording was screwy.  Buy yeah this leads to a new issue/question.

So my next thought was, "How would it sound if I played ONLY the modeled guitar tone and NOT use the guitar pickups at all?"  So I adjusted the output setting in MASTER --> OTHER to MODELED and I used the Rick.  I like that guitar anyway.  Frankly I was pretty amazed at how good it sounded all by itself.  For the gigs that my son does and how we might use this guitar in his shows, that modeled tone just might be good enough.

But then I bumped into a problem.  I cannot change the amp or any of the effects that run out of the Guitar Out jack.  All of the modeling tones are directed to the Output jacks and those go to my acoustic amp (can't use distortion there  :o).

How can I change the settings to get the modeled guitar tone AND the amp model and effects to route to the Guitar Out jack and to my amp?

Thanks guys!!

Elantric

Quote
How can I change the settings to get the modeled guitar tone AND the amp model and effects to route to the Guitar Out jack and to my amp?

If you discover a way, let us know

But read all the details of the GR-55 Guitar Out Jack here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3196.0

adagosto

Quote"No COSM Amp modeling nor FX can be sent to the dry Guitar Out jack on the GR-55."

This blows me away!!  Why would Roland go through all this trouble designing and building this unit and fall short in this most elementary way?  There may be a reason, but when the software was written with so many other customization options, I can't see a reason to limit this ability.

That's disappointing, but thank you for the quick bit of information.

gumtown

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

mbenigni

Quote from: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 08:28:57 PM
"No COSM Amp modeling nor FX can be sent to the dry Guitar Out jack on the GR-55."

This blows me away!!  Why would Roland go through all this trouble designing and building this unit and fall short in this most elementary way?  There may be a reason, but when the software was written with so many other customization options, I can't see a reason to limit this ability.

That's disappointing, but thank you for the quick bit of information.

Most all of us agree this was disappointing and a little short-sighted on Roland's part.  The obvious application for that output is direct to a guitar amp (with L/R off to P.A. for synths or acoustic guitar or whatever).  So at minimum you'd expect to be able to route guitar and/or COSM guitar + the MOD block effects to Guitar Out.  Alas, wishing does not make it so.  (I certainly tried LOL.)

JolietJake

#11
As long as you don't want stereo you can do this instead of using the guitar out:


GR-55- Separate guitar out with effects (sort of)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14252.msg102622#msg102622

adagosto

JolietJake and all,

What you have described here is exactly what my next step was to try.  You saved me a lot of time!!!  I think this is a very good and sensible "work-around".

I must say, Roland really got this wrong.  For a premium price tag for the GR-55, you don't get a premium feature-set when you need to make creative work-arounds to do what should be intelligent design.  This could be a good example of how the people writing the code are not the people who use it.  Fact also it, the is one very big firmware update away to solving the problem.  That's probably not going to happen.  This also makes we want to look for alternatives to Roland. 

Does anyone else use a different synth?  Yamaha maybe???

Elantric

#13
QuoteI must say, Roland really got this wrong.  For a premium price tag for the GR-55, you don't get a premium feature-set when you need to make creative work-arounds to do what should be intelligent design.  This could be a good example of how the people writing the code are not the people who use it.  Fact also it, the is one very big firmware update away to solving the problem.  That's probably not going to happen.  This also makes we want to look for alternatives to Roland. 

100% agree - many here forget that back in 2011 when the GR-55 was introduced, the GR-55 was $100 cheaper than it is today. Also the VG-99 was still in production and selling without a foot controller for $1499/.  In 2011 ,  GR-55 at $600, was considered a cut down  / cost saving alternative.

But in late 2012 the GR-55 price increased $100 to where it is today.

I doubt the GR-55 would be as successful as it has become today, without Gumtown's GR-55 Editor and this forum.   


GR-55 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137

Quote"No COSM Amp modeling nor FX can be sent to the dry Guitar Out jack on the GR-55."

I figure most Roland salesmen hide this important fact "pre-sale"

adagosto

That's a very good point.  This forum has helped make this tool "usable".  What I find, that's worth mentioning, is that I have been able to ask somewhat common questions and not necessarily complicated ones and been able to get the answers in literally minutes.  What's more, the answers normally lead me to more answers to things I have yet to ask!!

Roland is scoring big time!!

Good work to this forum and the guy answering the questions.

Elantric

QuoteGood work to this forum and the guy answering the questions.

We are all volunteers here!

Story of VGuitarForums
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.0

JolietJake

#16
QuoteJolietJake and all,

What you have described here is exactly what my next step was to try.  You saved me a lot of time!!!  I think this is a very good and sensible "work-around".


GR-55- Separate guitar out with effects (sort of)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14252.msg102622#msg102622


No problem. This forum has helped me many times. It's nice to pay it back now and again.

adagosto

Wow!  For the life of me I cannot get the L/R thing to work.

I have tried to simplify this with one PCM and one guitar model and that's it.
TONE PAGE:
I have the PCM1 set to PAN R50.  That works.
I have the PCM2 set to PAN R50.  That works (when I have it on).
On the Tone page when you press ENTER, you get three tabs (PCM1, PCM2 and MODEL).  For some reason, you cannot select PAN from the MODEL tab!!

EFFECT PAGE:
I have the amp model turned on and everything else it off.
Then when I press ENTER, the STRUCT is set to 2
MOD is set to PAN L50.
MFX is set to PAN L50 (I'm not clear on this, I thought MFX tones were associated with PCM1 & 2, but when I switch this setting to R50, it moves ALL tones from one amp to the other.  I cannot "split"  the tones!)
DEL, REV, CHO and EQ are all off

What am I doing wrong?

gumtown

Make sure the PCM tones are not routed through MFX and MOD (if you use GR-55FloorBoard editor it will be graphically obvious),
MOD or MFX need to be switched 'on' for the PAN to work (I think?)
Delay, Chorus and Reverb will need to be switched 'off' as they will cause channel bleed at the output.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stratrat

Quote from: gumtown on August 05, 2015, 07:41:49 PM
MOD or MFX need to be switched 'on' for the PAN to work (I think?)
Nope - the pan still works when they are bypassed.

adagosto

How do I make sure the PCMs are not routed through the MOD and MFX without the floor software?  That is probaby my next project.

Elantric

QuoteHow do I make sure the PCMs are not routed through the MOD and MFX without the floor software?  That is probaby my next project.

For best GR-55 enjoyment,  best to learn Gumtowns GR-55 Floorboard Editor

Here's how:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=86

adagosto

I will do this, promise.  But I really need to learn how to program it without a computer.  The reason is, if I'm at a gig and need to make some changes on the fly, I will not have a PC to help me.

Do you know how to explain the PCM routing instructions using just the screen?

gumtown

This is cheating. but you can see all four tone sources have 3 routes to choose, MOD, MFX, BYPASS
The BYPASS option takes the signal direct to the Delay, Reverb, and Chorus.

There are settings inside the GR-55 for each tone source, but I don't know where in the cryptic GR-55 menu system.



Also depending on the Structure setting, you will want the PCM synths to go via BYPASS or MFX, and the Modeled or Normal PU tone via MOD (and or MFX depending on the Structure setting).
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

JolietJake

Also, you MUST have L and R connected or Pan doesnt work. You cant have only one cable connected.