GR-55 - Patch Volume vs Tone Volume

Started by greekjgg, March 18, 2013, 06:42:48 AM

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greekjgg

Quick question, poll, whatever you think it falls under!

I have issues with volume going from patch to patch with inconsistencies. It's a pain in the but for the sound guy during shows. I try to calibrate as much as possible with tweaking the settings but I'm not great at it. My next step is using a decibal meter and just run through all my patches. I think somebody recommended this a while back.

The REAL question after the background info:

That being said, how do most of you control the "guitar" volume on your patches? Do you use the volume control on your roland pickup control as a "tone" control or for "patch" volume control? I've always used it as a "patch" volume and I'm wondering if I need to rethink this process?
Setup:
Homemade EVH Frankenstrat with built in GK3
GR55
Rocktron Talkbox
TC Helicon Voicetone C1
Tech 21 Power Engine 60

shawnb

#1
This thread may help on your broader question:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1889.msg10607#msg10607

And this one from the "GR-55 top things to know":
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137.msg20755#msg20755

I think most of us have it either at PATCH VOLUME or TONE VOLUME.   There seems to be a preference for TONE VOLUME.  I haven't noticed a difference, actually.   I know TONE VOLUME gives you a little more control of your mag PU volume vs the GR-55's generated tones.   But I like the simplicity of PATCH VOLUME - when I want the volume down, I have ONE knob to deal with....   Warning though - I rarely use my plain mag PU through these devices, and that may be why.   YMMV!
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

gumtown

Best to level all your patches by picking a generic 'base tone' go to patch you can call 'optimum level', then adjust (A/B comparison) the rest of your patches 'at gig level', don't do it with headphones or quietly.
The loudness perception changes between patches as the level increases into your ears (something called Fletcher Munson effect) where your hearing compresses.
I use the GK volume knob for overall Patch Level,
and the instument Normal Pickup volume knob for instrument/PCM tone balance.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

greekjgg

Quote from: gumtown on March 18, 2013, 01:36:15 PM

I use the GK volume knob for overall Patch Level,
and the instument Normal Pickup volume knob for instrument/PCM tone balance.

Assuming the GK VOlume knob on the actually pu controller? Instrument Normal PU vol knob within the software?
Setup:
Homemade EVH Frankenstrat with built in GK3
GR55
Rocktron Talkbox
TC Helicon Voicetone C1
Tech 21 Power Engine 60

Elantric

#4
QuoteInstrument Normal PU vol knob within the software?


Gumtown plays Bass

I believe "the instument Normal Pickup volume knob for instrument" = the stock Volume Control for the Magnetic pickups on his Bass.


I play Guitar, and use my Guitar's factory Mag Pickup Volume control for "Guitar level", and use a separate 1/4" cord direct to a GuitarFX Board and Guitar Amp.

For GR-55 Synths, its important to ONLY use USER patches which you have pre-programmed , and adjusted and saved the patch to patch Decibel level to make them all have the desired uniform output level setting at rehearsal  - before the Gig.   

greekjgg

Quote from: Elantric on March 18, 2013, 03:04:37 PM

Gumtown plays Bass

I believe "the instument Normal Pickup volume knob for instrument" = the stock Volume Control for the Magnetic pickups on his Bass.

Yeah, I read that wrong. I was thinking the cosm tone vs PCM tones when I read it the first time.
Setup:
Homemade EVH Frankenstrat with built in GK3
GR55
Rocktron Talkbox
TC Helicon Voicetone C1
Tech 21 Power Engine 60

Jim Williams

Here is a tip I posted in other threads: select a patch that you think is a "good volume" and loop it  with the looper. now you can scroll through your other patches and edit them so that they are relative to the patch you are looping. You may want your patches at different volumes based on what you are playing at the time. for example clean tones and overdrive tones may be different volumes and your PCM tones may need to be at a completely different range of dynamics. your ear should guide you and you may want to use back tracks to give you some idea of how it will sound with a band. One of the most common mistakes that people make with any programmable unit is what I call the "Living room Syndrome". You make a patch in your house and it sounds great but when you get to rehearsal or out live it sounds horrible. It will also help to make some patches that are templates for making new patches this will help equalize volumes if all your templates are pre balanced for live use.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

groovey1

"Living room Syndrome" ... heh, that's good! I've been bitten by that a few times.
Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try.

Have you ever tried running the GR55 into a computer to measure the output level and then try to even out patch volumes that way? Could that possibly work? Or are there too many other factors that contribute to perceived loudness?

gumtown

I have used VU meters inline with the GR-55 USB before, but find them not all that useful.
The meters tend to peak more with more bassier sound content,
i think your ears are going to give you a better comparison.

And as Jim mentioned before, not all songs require the same sound level from the guitar,
it's what sits best in the overall mix for any particular song.

It is good to learn to be able to quickly adjust and save the patch level for any patch during a rehearsal or gig,
if you press the edit button and align the cursor on to the patch level parameter adjustment,
a quick double tap on the write button will save that level for that patch.
Then it is just a matter of exiting from the menu, and returning by pressing the Edit button when required to make a quick level adjustment and save, the cursor will already be aligned with the patch level.

I tend to leave the main level knob sitting about midway (12o'clock).
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

shawnb


I have never tried meters, because I'm not sure they'll help.  A compressed signal might have a lower peak, but sound much, much louder.   (It's not a peak measurement, but an area-under-the-curve measurement???)
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

greekjgg

Quote from: groovey1 on March 19, 2013, 08:56:27 AM
"Living room Syndrome" ... heh, that's good! I've been bitten by that a few times.
Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try.

Have you ever tried running the GR55 into a computer to measure the output level and then try to even out patch volumes that way? Could that possibly work? Or are there too many other factors that contribute to perceived loudness?

Ditto ditto
Setup:
Homemade EVH Frankenstrat with built in GK3
GR55
Rocktron Talkbox
TC Helicon Voicetone C1
Tech 21 Power Engine 60

Elantric

#11
Its important to program all your Live gig patches at the same volume as you expect to play at the live gig.
If you skip this step, and program your patches at low volume, or only use headphones, you may find the sound at the live gig to be too low or too loud.

Its also important to work with the patch EQ - if you design your patches at low volume, they will end up way too boomy, and lack midrange definition when performed with the full band at the gig. .

If you play guitar, I suggest use a heavy handed roll-off of everything below 120Hz - to leave those frequencies for your Bass Player, and your Drummers kick drum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour


Toby Krebs

What Elantric Said!!! So very important to manage frequencies away from other instruments!