InnProcess Music - Frettrax Midi Guitar and Bass

Started by Vic1iful, July 01, 2010, 11:32:54 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Vic1iful

The problem is he owns all the patents and won't release it until he gets enough backing. I have stayed in touch with him over the last six months and though he has 2 backers right now, he still needs another good backer to make this work. Any of you seriously rich guys should be able to make a killing off this if marketed properly.


"This is a demo/promo video for the Fret-X Intelligent Fret Scanner MIDI Guitar, a guitar scanner, currently under development at InnProcess Music, that translates guitar notes into MIDI information.

If you've got any additional information on the Fret-X Intelligent Fret Scanner MIDI Guitar, leave a comment below.
via InnProcessMusic:

InnProcess Music has developed a revolutionary technology that senses normal guitar strings pressed against normal guitar frets and generates the fastest, most accurate MIDI guitar information ever available."


http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/02/14/the-fret-x-intelligent-fret-scanner-midi-guitar/

washburn100

Man, if it's as good as it looks in the video, where do I send the cheque!

This may be a dumb question, but has he approached Roland or Axiom or similar?

Vic1iful

Hi Washburn. I know it's great ain't it. He has talked to many large companies but gets no support so he is getting private investors. What I am afriad might happen with him is his proto might become obsolete before anyone else gets to enjoy it. I pushed alittle to let me have it anyway and he ain't budging. Shame, IMHO

99sense

Since it is described as "scanning", I would guess that it's using the strings and frets as switch contacts.
It's not a new idea but it's certainly a good way to get instant tracking response. But things like pitch bend
would still have to be done the same way as with current midi guitar controllers.
The fret scanning determines which notes are being fretted, while the hex pickup provides the dynamics
for each note. That part can be done quickly by just looking at the note envelope.

Also, it would require a special guitar; you couldn't just add it to your favorite ax. It does solve certain problems
very well, though.

aliensporebomb

It determines the next note you play BEFORE YOU PLAY IT?!?!?!

Sign me up, that's crazy ESP-type technology.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

99sense

"It determines the next note you play BEFORE YOU PLAY IT?!?!?!"

That's also what indicates it's using strings and frets as switch contacts.
As soon as you press a string down to the fret, it detects that note, before
you actually pick the string.

fredo

My guess is that it is an optical measurement of the distance between bridge and pressed fret.
Here is another system like that : https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=32295.msg239218#msg239218

K-man

I played the Stepp and Synth Axe systems (wired frets) which left me unimpressed (didn't feel like a guitar at all). Then, also in mid nineties, I ordered the Zeta guitar... paid $6k.... waited 6 months and then I got my money back.  I was told they were having some major software issues with the system.

When I listen to the Fret-X guitar demo, I still hear a bit delay when he plays the guitar & synth sounds simultaneously. But it might be due to the slow attack of the particular midi sound he's triggering.

Elantric

#8
I have a You Rock Guitar, which is currently the best $ 200 MIDI Guitar like controller available. It works very well for me. Harvey Starr is due to have competitor, the "Rock Controller" for $400 this fall. It's exciting times for MIDI guitarists. But be aware this market is quite small, since nine out of ten guitarists prefer to be a clone of Angus Young , and never heard of Adrian Belew or Allan Holdsworth. As a group,most Electric guitarists have  a long tradition of being too conservative and not straying beyond their tube amps and stick with a pre 1966 guitar design. The MIDI guitar market is so small that Terratech no longer produces the best MIDI guitar converter unit , on the planet, the Axon series of guitar to MIDI converters. Any time I ask my guitar player buddies "who wants a MIDI guitar", not one of them respond with any genuine interest. High tech guitarists are a rare breed.

K-man

I have an Axon and GI-20. I like the GI-20 triggering the best of all I've heard / used so far.

lilbman

#10
This looks very promising. Why Roland wouldn't want to partner up
w/ this tech. is beyond me. It seems like a no brainer. They could
use this midi tracking along w/ their string tracking and kick some
serious butt. Make it affordable, put it in budget and professional
guitars. Technology is getting better and better and this changes
everything. Will someone please jump on this so there's not another
patent block for the next several years. Wake up Roland. Imagine,
the learning guitarist, the hobbyist, the week-end warrior, the home
recording artist and the professionals. Will someone please finally make
this really happen for once in our life time.

Perfect tracking...................................
no glitching.........................................
no false notes......................................
yada yada yada

more guitarists would use midi if it was more user friendly and reliable.
lah dee dah tah dah

vanceg

There are many researchers and designers in this area who feel that while fret-sensing is PART of the solution to the "ultimate guitar controller", it's only one of the many technical hurdles which have to be addressed. Even if you are able to detect the fret that is being pressed, how do you deal with bends? Do you use pitch detection? Do you measure changes in the tension on the string?  And how about hammer ons and pull offs?  My point is not that there is no solution, but rather that the solution is MUCH MUCH MUCH more complex than it seems at first.   

Then to "make it affordable" isn't necessarily a 'no briainer' either.  How Much would guitar players pay for a technology that requires them to use a specific guitar (remember, pitch detection systems can be put on most guitars....here we would be talking about trying to convince guitar players, who are a NOTORIOUSLY fickle and particular bunch of customers, to play a specific guitar with a specific neck and maybe even specific pickups.

The market may not be as big as you imagine that it is. Maybe there are enough people who would want guitar to synth controllers.  But you also have to remember the competition from other less expensive products may well satisfy the needs and desires of a huge portion of your potential market. 

From knowing a little bit about the details of this technology, and some of the history of it's development (though admittedly only second hand), it strikes me that to make a really viable product out of it which would really satisfy a perceived need in the marketplace, a great deal more than just the core technology has to be brought to the table. 

All that said: I absolutely want this technology to be utilized in advanced guitar systems in the future. in fact, I'm doing some fairly serious research into incorporating it into some of my designs in the future....but It looks like that time will be pretty far in the future (no need to ask me about timelines...this is a blue sky concept right now). 

My hope is that this technology can be combined with some other future-looking guitar technologies which are hitting the market currently to produce "the ultimate" guitar controller.  And I KNOW Roland has never shown any interest whatsoever in building "the ultimate" anything....... (this coming from a guy surrounded by a VG-8, VG-99, V-Bass, V-Synth, V-Drums and more 80's Roland rack gear than I care to admit.  I love the gear...but "cutting edge" is never what Roland does. Look to another company for that. Seriously. They will break your heart every time. (I'm not bitter, just learned to not be heartbroken any more. haahahaha.)

My normal 11 cents...

Vance

Vance



Quote from: lilbman on July 25, 2010, 11:01:16 PM
This looks very promising. Why Roland wouldn't want to partner up
w/ this tech. is beyond me. It seems like a no brainer. They could
use this midi tracking along w/ their string tracking and kick some
serious butt. Make it affordable, put it in budget and professional
guitars. Technology is getting better and better and this changes
everything. Will someone please jump on this so there's not another
patent block for the next several years. Wake up Roland. Imagine,
the learning guitarist, the hobbyist, the week-end warrior, the home
recording artist and the professionals. Will someone please finally make
this really happen for once in our life time.

Perfect tracking...................................
no glitching.........................................
no false notes......................................
yada yada yada

more guitarists would use midi if it was more user friendly and reliable.


vanceg

My other micro-rant for the evening:

If we have this great device for converting guitar playing into a computer parsable data stream really well, then let's please, Please, PLEASE not simply use MIDI.  We really need something, Something, SOMETHING beyond MIDI. 

Guitar playing to OSC? Guitar playing to "ultra-hyper-speed-MIDI". Anything, Anything, ANYTHING but just straight MIDI! 

Vance

Macciza

Anyone checked out Keith McMillens latest offerings?
The Stringport (www.stringport.com/) looks like a really cool addition to my setup and am hoping to get one soon if possible . .
And the SoftStep controller http://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/softstep/ looks quite interesting too . .

IMHO fret sensing will be much better when they can finally give me pressure and aftertouch info . . .
Until then I am not really sure about it . . .

Cheers All
MM
'70s Strat, Brian Moore iM, VG-8, VG-99, FC-300, VL-70m, StringPort, SoftStep, Sentient6, iMac QC i7 27".

GeePeeAxe

I have an Axon AX50 now. Blows the VG-99 really away.
It has only 12 ms latency on low E, so it is 2 times faster
than any Roland product or other converter. Regarding
the accuracy in translating dynamics to data, it is also
much better than the VG-99. Pity that Roland didn´t buy
Axon technology yet!

Djordje
www.midiguitar.de

vanceg

Quote from: Macciza on July 26, 2010, 02:40:10 AM
Anyone checked out Keith McMillens latest offerings?
The Stringport (www.stringport.com/) looks like a really cool addition to my setup and am hoping to get one soon if possible . .
And the SoftStep controller http://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/softstep/ looks quite interesting too . .

IMHO fret sensing will be much better when they can finally give me pressure and aftertouch info . . .
Until then I am not really sure about it . . .

Cheers All
MM


Yes, I have been doing work on/with the StringPort for about a year now and helped demo the Softstep at NAMM last year.  Very nice devices indeed.  There is a section of FGN dedicated to discussing the KMI products:  https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=435.0 
There is not a LOT posted there yet...but that will change over time.

It's funny you should bring Keith McMillen up in this particular thread:  I do believe that the Zeta Mirror 6, which Keith designed, was the only instrument to hit the market that used fret scanning technology that started this thread.....

You bring up an intersting question: Should guitar based system adhere to the same technical concepts and deal with the same parameters that were established for MIDI (which was designed for keyboards).  After all, what IS aftertouch on a guitar?  After a note has started, you want to know how hard the player's finger is pressing against the fretboard?  That's valid.  The way that MIDI systems would currently do that is to try to interpolate from the pitch of the string.  But we all know that you could be changing the pitch of that string by moving it side-to-side (a typical bend) or by pressing harder on it (bending it toward the fretboard, between frets).  So THAT won't work. Aftertouch on TRADITIONAL guitars is sort of a moot point. ... but I agree that it would be a nice parameter to be able to control - even if all it does on a traditional guitar would be to bend the pitch a tiny amount, it could be interesting to play a note and then press harder on the fretboard to change a parameter of that note specifically.

Perhaps guitar controllers should enable other types of control parameters such as: The current fret that is being played, or where the string is in it's vibrational phase at any given moment. 

But I digress (as always!)

I know first hand that the StringPort (and software) is capable of capturing a huge amount of information about the string at any given moment; this should be able to be translated into a datastream representing PolyPressure and Aftertouch....but I could imagine that a scanning-fret instrument, in conjunction with a device like StringPort would be REALLY amazing!

Vance

Vic1iful

Funny, I didn't get any of these email notices. But in the meantime, I did come accross this NEXT GENERATION VG WISHLIST, that I found very telling and I hope Roland listens this time without degrading any quality. http://www.vg-8.com/wiki/Next_Generation_VG

Elantric

#17
Quote from: lilbman on July 25, 2010, 11:01:16 PM
This looks very promising. Why Roland wouldn't want to partner up
w/ this tech. is beyond me. It seems like a no brainer.

Probably because both parties attorneys could never agree to terms of the sale




Most of that VG-8 "next generation wish list" was written around 2005.   At the end of the day Roland delivers technology with whatever is in their current production electronic  parts bin, but they tend to omit features they feel only interests 10% of the potential users. Like Hex I/O to a computer via USB and an insert FX loop. Yes many want those features , but it would add 30% more to the street price for all, and potentially keep the VG99 off of many guitarists shopping list. Most guitarists are price sensitive when making their gear choices. 

Quotef we have this great device for converting guitar playing into a computer parsable data stream really well, then let's please, Please, PLEASE not simply use MIDI.  We really need something, Something, SOMETHING beyond MIDI. 

Guitar playing to OSC? Guitar playing to "ultra-hyper-speed-MIDI". Anything, Anything, ANYTHING but just straight MIDI! 

How about "Guitar to Pure Data"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8726.msg74491#msg74491

vanceg

Ah the VG-8 list. That's STILL a useful resource. Nice. 

Yeah, that list is pretty old - Like 2004 or 2005: Much of what is on there is relevant today for thinking about the next generation VG.  And that in and of itself is somewhat telling. 

I'm still hopeful for the next generation of VG products, but I've more or less given up on suggesting product features to Roland: They are going to do what they believe will be useful to the largest number of guitar players and will stay laser focused on that. They have no interest whatsoever in changing the direction to address the desires of "forward thinking" guitarists.

FORTUNATELY, some of their technology happens to be really interesting and can be somewhat subverted into being used in ways it was not necessarily designed to be used....and that's why I use many items from the V-series (drums, keys, guitar and bass processors).

Now, if there is a way to present feature requests so that it's obvious that some large portion of the potential buyers would be interested in that feature.... then perhaps Roland would listen....but I've never figured out how to do that.  From experience, it seems that Roland US just has almost no pull whatsoever with Roland Japan in being able to help define product direction.  At least that is how it seems from the outside.

So as far as presenting "wish lists" to Roland (at least Roland US), I more or less give up.
Them's my two cents. 

audiotrax

#19
Have you guys seen this one? :


This looks exactly like what I've been waiting for.  A MIDI guitar that IS a guitar, and seems to track instantly WITH string bends!  OH my :D  The technology sounds like (maybe it is?) what was developed by Fret-X, and seems very similar to the sonar scanning that the Beetle Quantar and Yamaha G10 were based on in the late 80's.

I just got off the phone with Keith McMillan Instruments.  The desk guy I spoke to said it is just a prototype (aren't they all...) and that they have no release date or pricing set.  Couldn't get anything else out of him.

Let's hope this one doesn't disappear like all the rest, sight unseen.  I don't know what it is with guitar controllers, but there almost seems like some kind of conspiracy to keep the good technology out of anyone's hands....

I suggested they make some more videos showing more than 5 seconds of what this beautiful MIDI guitar can do.  The employee seemed to really take note that someone was interested in this.  I said "put a few more videos really demonstrating this out there, and just watch the interest develop".  They obviously need some feedback to see how the market reacts.

To give you an idea of what MIDI guitar SHOULD have been, and WAS back in the late 80's, just watch this:

Owner of: VG-88, GI-10, Cubase 5, Kontakt, SampleTank, var VSTI's, Roland JV1080.  Strat with GK-2A, two Roland GR500 analog guitar synths

malatorr


paults

The KMI was the one I was thinking of in the "expectations" thread.  I think it was discussed on FutureGuitarNow a while ago.

lilbman

#22
Does anyone know what happened to Fret-x...? Haven't seen anything about them lately.

Or even M3i technologies...? Their web page is gone.

Just curious what happened and if anyone has any updates. Of course, anxiously awaiting for the Fishman Triple Play. I thought these other ideas had grand potential. Especially the tension sensing/tracking w/ the M3i unit. For bends and stuff. If this tech is good, then couldn't it be paired with Fret-x or "Heck" even the Fender Rock Band Pro Midi Guitar.

Also, if optical laser is superior to other forms of midi tracking, then why can't someone be smart enough to develop one for midi purposes only and forget about using them as a regular guitar pickup? Incorporate tension sensing/ tracking.....BAM.

Not laser length for tracking though.

8) Just spitballin'



lah dee dah tah dah

Elantric

#23
Last press release for M3I was last summer
M3I Technologies – Laser Pitch to MIDI

http://www.myelectricvisions.com/2011/07/m3i-technologies-laser-pitch-midi/
M3i's Laser Pitch Detection (LPD) system runs a laser beam under each string of a guitar for use as a midi controller. Unlike past string to midi devices that detect vibrations, M3i's optical pickup measures the distance between the diode and the depressed string, then converts that into a pitch. This technology not only gets rid of any delay, it also gives you no need to actually tune your instrument. Check out a video of M3i's LPD below:




This video shows the function of M3i's Tension Sensing technology that has been developed together with the Fraunhofer IST in Braunschweig. It is a force sensitive coating that has been applied on the guitar's string holder. So the bending and vibrato information of the player can be transformed into controller data for PCs, gaming consoles and mobile devices. Together with M3i's Laser Pitch Technology it builds a sensor system that is able to transform the performance of a guitarist in realtime to the external device with virtually no latency (www.m3i-technology.com).

We had a prior thread about the Fret-X system here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2536.0



The best i could see, the Fret-X system was simply a start-up seeking major cash flow and major funding from large companies in the music industry , with nothing more than a power point presentation, without any substantiated demonstrable hardware to repeatably prove the concept actually worked.

Optical guitar pickups for MIDI  are nothing new - ask the guys at You Rock Guitar who invented the Photon MIDI guitar system back in 1986.

And fretboard scanning is nothing new - check out the 1966 Eko Guitar-organ, or Godwin GuitarOrgan

http://m.matrixsynth.com/2010_06_26_archive.html





http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/02/14/the-fret-x-intelligent-fret-scanner-midi-guitar/
This is a demo/promo video for the Fret-X Intelligent Fret Scanner MIDI Guitar, a guitar scanner, currently under development at InnProcess Music, that translates guitar notes into MIDI information.

If you've got any additional information on the Fret-X Intelligent Fret Scanner MIDI Guitar, leave a comment below.

via InnProcessMusic:

    InnProcess Music has developed a revolutionary technology that senses normal guitar strings pressed against normal guitar frets and generates the fastest, most accurate MIDI guitar information ever available.


http://www.allsound.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1546

Experimental The technology behind guitar synthesizers is one that has been struggling with problems over the past few decades, problems that have never plagued keyboardists. For one thing, tracking is among those problems. The usual MIDI hex pickup gives that noticeable delay which has made the standard MIDI guitar an almost impractical device for recording and live performance. It just wasn't possible for guitarists to play synthesizers mixed with the sound of the natural guitar sound synced in real time. This was the problem until InnProcess Music Fret-X was conceived.

Fret-X is a revolutionary technology aimed at providing guitarists the same benefits that keyboard players have been enjoying for years: realtime control and performance of synthesizers. The principle behind the accuracy of Fret-X is its fret scanning technology. The thing about fret scanning technology is that it can detect which fret and which string you've fretted way in a few hundred microseconds according to Leroy Young of InnProcess Music. This means that it can detect the note way before you've even plucked a string; latency is therefore nonexistent in Fret-X.

Still under development, the Fret-X is a step towards making MIDI guitars way more accurate than they are at this point as well as more affordable. The basic hardware components in Fret-X include a circuit board which houses the fret scanning technology and a standard MIDI Hex pickup. While the technology allows for realtime control over synthesizers and other MIDI-enabled devices, Fret-X also brings MIDI recording via guitar in the same manner that keyboardists record MIDI.

There are a lot of performance and recording possibilities with Fret-X. Players have the option of playing in a tapping mode or a picking mode. Fingerstyle playing is also accommodated, and none of the notorious tracking problems related to the lower strings can be encountered. Users can either play solely the synthesizer or blend synthesizer with their guitar's natural analog signal. The Fret-X prototype even features the most flexible tuning possibilities for guitarists. Everything from usual dropped D to the most unusual of tunings can be done with Fret-X. Fret-X even has a mode that allows users to create crazy accompaniment such as the MIDI lines being played in contrary motion against that of the guitar's original signal.

As it is still within the development stages, InnProcess Music is still looking for collaborators who can further expand and mass produce the Fret-X technology. If you're a guitarist who want's to explore other modes of performance and recording, you'd better hope that Fret-X becomes available soon in the mass market to upgrade your guitar. You can watch the Fret-X in action through this YouTube link.

For more information, visit the official website of InnProcess Music Fret-X.




FWIW - All their videos and URLS  are now dead
http://www.fret-x.com/


Even in 1986, not too many folks were buying $8,000 Synth-Axes - even with Allan Holdsworth and Lee Ritenour doing demos at all the trade shows back then.


The demand for technology priced that high is Much less in today's poor economy. 
No doubt the Fishman TriplePlay at $299 this summer was probably the nail in the coffin for both M3I and Fret-X.


Plus there are prior patents which present a hurdle for many

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/44434312/Electronic-Musical-Instrument-With-Automatic-Accompaniment-Based-On-Fingerboard-Fingering---Patent-5223659

lilbman

#24
Hey thanks for responding Elantric.  :D

Just a simple man who has been anticipating the day when flawless tracking wouldn't be just a dream anymore and one would never have to worry about a false note ever again.

I keep believing it will happen.

Thanks again Elantric...
lilbman



lah dee dah tah dah