GR-55 - Exp/Pitchbend Pedal Direction?

Started by ForestCat, July 13, 2012, 02:46:05 PM

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ForestCat

Again, apologies if this is elementary/obvious, but an earnest search yields zip...

How does one reverse the direction of the "bend" when using the exp pedal for pitchbend?
i.e. "unbent" pitch w/ pedal down on the deck, with pitch bending downward (or upward) as the toe of the pedal is raised?

I could do this using assigns , min/max vals, etc., except for one minor problem:  I don't see pitchbend as an assign target.  Using it to set coarse/fine pitch is useless, since that is quantized to half-steps.

Have I missed something obvious?

Thanks for any feedback.

Mrchevy

#1
I believe what you want is TONE BEND, it is the very last one on the list of PCM1 or PCM2 or MODELING parameters ( if your using the GR55 FloorBoard Editor ) in the ASSIGNS section (target). To reverse how the EXP pedal bends, reverse the ACT RNG LO ( low action range or minimum -default is 0, set it to 127) and the ACT RNG HI ( high action range or maximum- default is 127, set it to 0 ).

The MINMUM and MAXIMUM settings in the ASSIGN TARGET section I believe is for setting how much the pitch changes. These 2 settings may also need to be reversed. I believe this might do it for you or at least steer you in the right direction, the main thing is reversing your action settings, but I'm not an expert..........yet :)
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And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

ForestCat

Thanks!  Between my encroaching senility :D and Roland's Englanese translations and near fanatical insistence on breaking convention with their parameter name nomenclature(i.e. LFO vs. "Wave pedal"...),  I completely missed Tone Bend.  Or I saw it, and read it as Tone Blend.  Like when I see LPHoverCraft, but my brain sees it as HPLoveCraft.  What a drag it is getting old...

In any case, that was the parameter I was looking for, and, with a little tweaking, it works nice.
BUT...
Has anyone else noticed a strange instability at either end of the travel of the exp peal when using it for pitchbend of the cosm sound, either using an assign as above, or just setting the exp pedal itself to pitchbend?  If I set mine to bend pitch down a couple of semitones, and emulate a gentle whammy bar vibrato of about 2-3hz or so, it behaves as if the pot were dirty, i.e. I hear small, but noticeable glitches, "detents", almost clicks when the pedal is operated near the normal pitch end of the travel.   Wondering if my unit is borked, but probably not. I guess it's usable, but annoying.
Thanks again for the solution to the assign problem.  I really appreciate it.

Mrchevy

You might try calibrating your expression pedal. Info should be in the manual. Also, try using the PCM's and different tones with that setting to see if it's the setting or the model your using. One more thing, if you have other assigns ON, that do not pertain to your reversed pitch bend settings, try turning those off to see if there is maybe a conflict somewhere. I have been working on a setting with the pitch bending to do chord changes/progressions with the pedal and have been trying to figure out if the quirkyness is a setting thats off slightly or just the software not being able to process it the way I want it to.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

ForestCat

No, it's not calibration.  Tried that.  All the other assigns, etc. are off.  There's just something slightly glitchy about the way the pedal behaves when operated rapidly very close to either end of it's travel when assigned to pitch bend.  Or at least that's where it's most noticeable.  I'm gonna try this w/ the VG-99 to see if I get the same thing.

Mrchevy

#5
Just for the hell of it, try setting your action ranges back to default ( lo range to 0 , hi range to 127) and set the Target minimum to +12 and the Target Maximum to -12. Let me know if that works.

Ok, I just tried a patch that had a pitch bend to it and set the Min and Max as stated above and it worked perfect so that may be the answer. Question, are you using Gumtowns GR55 Floorboard Editor to make these changes or are you making these changes in the GR55 itself? Either will work fine for changes but it will help to know what your looking at when your making changes. Try it and see.

HMMMM, looking at it from this perspective, I will have to play with it a little and see if this may also be the solution I have been looking for to my quirky problem of using the EXP pedal to create chord progressions with the pitch bending
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

ForestCat

OK, after some dicking around, this is really easy to replicate.  Go to the factory Lead group, patch 1-1, "Metal Lead, or whatever (not near the GR-55 now...).  Turn off PCM1,2, & straight guitar.  Turn off all the assigns.  Go to the GK/Exp/Ctrl area in Master, and set the EXP to pitch bend, just for the COSM.  Set the amount to -1 (half step down).  Turn off any other functions for EXP Switch, EXP w/ Switch on, etc.  You ought to hear a very clear "jump" in pitch when you move the pedal downward from "unity pitch".  It's as though the pedal motion has been quantized into discrete steps too coarse to work smoothly with small pitch bend amounts.  I'm not looking to "dive" with this, I need very subtle pitch bend, and this ain't cutting it so far.  Still trying. Haven't tried this on the VG-99 yet...

Mrchevy

ForestCat, I apologize, going back over this thread, do I understand that the settings suggested previously, worked great with TONE BEND, but you are now trying to accomplish the same effect with PITCH BEND, and that PITCH BEND is where you are getting the JUMP instead of SMOOTH bend
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

ForestCat

No, I should apologize :D
I hadn't previously used Pitch Bend, because the direction of the pedal wouldn't work for me. I first found this "glitch" behavior when using an assign for Tone Bend, as you suggested.  I just wanted to be sure that this wasn't specifically related to Tone Bend & assigns, vs "native" Pitch Bend, so that's why I came up with the above example.  In summary, this "quantization" occurs w/ small values for bend amount with either Pitch Bend or Tone Bend, no matter whether using the built-in exp pedal, or an external midi controller via assign, and it is very audible & sounds like crap. 

The proper "fix" is for Roland to allow midi pitchbend as an assign, since it has 14 bits of resolution, vs 7bits for CC's, and who knows what for the internal exp pedal.

A thought just occurred to me... you almost never see well-done youtube videos demonstrating product bugs, omissions & shortcomings.  If everyone here that has found nasty bugs in the GR-55 that still remain after two firmware revisions, started flooding youtube with vivid, embarrassing examples(concert piano dropouts, etc), I wonder if this stuff would get Roland Japan's attention? 

Elantric

#9
Bingo!
Let's do it!

Short concise YouTube GR-55 Bug and VG-99 Bug videos should get the point across and transcend language barriers, and get the attention of Roland R&D

See here for details
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=recent


QuoteA thought just occurred to me... you almost never see well-done youtube videos demonstrating product bugs, omissions & shortcomings.  If everyone here that has found nasty bugs in the GR-55 that still remain after two firmware revisions, started flooding youtube with vivid, embarrassing examples(concert piano dropouts, etc), I wonder if this stuff would get Roland Japan's attention?

ForestCat

"Bingo!
Let's do it!"

Was hoping you might like that ;)

In any case, the VG-99 is smooth as silk, works like, well, a properly set up tremolo bar. Hell, I even think they got the log(exponential?) curve right...

Perhaps OT, but, the more time I spend w/ my VG-99, the more I lament what the GR-55 might have/should have been.  All they needed to do was add C & D as real (as opposed to bare-bones ROMpler) synth channels, bring the guitar to MIDI at least up to the level of the GI-20, since they already had the R&D/technology for that,(It's not stellar, but still better than the GR-55 MIDI out, IMHO, ...) and LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE THE FRIG ALONE. If their intent was to dumb down literally every aspect of the VG-99, then they succeeded brilliantly.  I'm trying hard to love this poor little blue bastard child, really I am, since it is so convenient.  But the missing features/functionality make me want to cut my wrists on a nearly hourly basis...  especially when I consider what Roland is capable of producing if they ever decided to make excellence their first priority... 

Elantric

QuoteI'm trying hard to love this poor little blue bastard child, really I am, since it is so convenient.  But the missing features/functionality make me want to cut my wrists on a nearly hourly basis...  especially when I consider what Roland is capable of producing if they ever decided to make excellence their first priority... 

My sentiments exactly!

But its tough to argue with the numbers or happy GR-55 users, as its limited User controls and missing feature set suite many guitarists needs - while not being the ideal tool for ours~ ;) 

ForestCat

I get that.  And I know I'm preaching to the choir :D, but...

Most of today's electronic instruments are 80% software instructions, right?  Most instruments returned for repair have almost all the factory-supplied programs unchanged, right?  So if most users don't want to program, fine, more power to them.  I can not understand what the harm is in providing a Standard Mode and an Advanced Mode where parameter editing/access is involved.  In Standard Mode, call it a "Wave Pedal", and provide a triangle wave w/ rate/depth.  In advanced mode, call it an LFO, and provide proper waveforms, including pulse, random( S&H), etc.  It would cost them nothing, and no animals would be harmed.  Unless they skimped so badly on DSP/CPU that the thing will blow a head gasket with just one more conditional branch in the machine code...
The usage of the h/w pedals on the 55 is the hands-down worst use of pedalboard real estate in the entire industry.  And I've easily got a hundred grand in gear, and I know what bad is.  Jesus Christ could not convince me that the preset selection procedure in the GR-55 is a step up from the GR-700, FC-200, etc.  For me, the unit is simply not usable with some other h/w to call up programs.  So I find myself asking if it's really that convenient after all.  But then again, you need a pedalboard w/ the VG-99, et al.  Honestly, I'd be less pissed if the GR-55 was a rack.  Or if all the pedal functions were programmable.  That would be an ENORMOUS improvement. 
Then there's the talk about "dated" sounds, & the need for everything to sound contemporary.  Does a CS-80 sound "dated"? How about a Minimoog, or an Oberheim SEM?  The only thing that ever becomes "dated" is the over-used presets on popular gear.  No one has ever fully tapped out even the DX-7 or D-50, arguably the most recorded instruments of all time...  All they lack is polyphony/multitimbrality. Any one of these instruments would take a lifetime to exhaust.  Those few who have will never be heard by the masses, for all the usual reasons.
But I digress....

Elantric

I Totally agree with all the above!

I'm looking forward to the day I can avoiding using all my clumsy / awkward 13 pin gear,

and instead do all the hex guitar processing in software

These threads show the bleeding edge path to that goal
Ricky Graham's Septar Hex Guitar to PC Kit
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4222.0

PD and OSC for guitar


Pd (aka Pure Data) is a real-time graphical programming environment for audio, video, and graphical processing. It is the third major branch of the family of patcher programming languages known as Max (Max/FTS, ISPW Max, Max/MSP, jMax, etc.) originally developed by Miller Puckette and company at IRCAM. The core of Pd is written and maintained by Miller Puckette and includes the work of many developers, making the whole package very much a community effort.

Pd was created to explore ideas of how to further refine the Max paradigm with the core ideas of allowing data to be treated in a more open-ended way and opening it up to applications outside of audio and MIDI, such as graphics and video.

It is easy to extend Pd by writing object classes ("externals") or patches ("abstractions"). The work of many developers is already available as part of the standard Pd packages and the Pd developer community is growing rapidly. Recent developments include a system of abstractions for building performance environments; a library of objects for physical modeling; and a library of objects for generating and processing video in realtime.





Mrchevy

Hey guys, I have been playing around with this pitch bend thing a little. ForestCat, I was actually able to reproduce the issue you speak of at the toe and heel position. It still seemed to me that the pedal was not zeroing out at either position and thought, is there a way to somehow calibrate it beyond the stop (zero ) positions. There is, at the toe, a pressure sensitive switch, and I believe also at the heel position. While there is no way to calibrate beyond the zero position in the settings, there is a way, and it works! What you have to do is apply extra pressure to the switches at the toe and heel ( BEYOND what you would NORMALLY apply with your foot), when calibrating the pedal. I did this and it works smooth as glass, toe to heel, no matter how fast I work the pedal. I do not know if it will make a difference but I did this after setting the pitch bend settings. Please try this and let me know if it works for you too. I am now obsessed with this and must find the answer ;D
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#15
QuoteWhile there is no way to calibrate (the GR-55 Expression pedal)

Actually there is an Advanced Calibration method- but its like finding an Easter Egg - and the procedure is holding down two buttons at power up to access the Factory service mode.


Problem is locating just which two buttons these are!

Only Roland Service Departments can answer this - because the pedal calibration procedure is written in the Roland GR-55 Service Manual.

Meanwhile look at GR-55 owner's manual page 73 for the Expression Pedal Calibration procedure

ForestCat

Obsession is a good thing.   :D.  I find that obsessed people tend to get sh!t done.  Very logical thinking on your part, and yes, with the onboard pedal, this seems to do the job.  I've never had it apart, but I'd been thinking it might be some slop in the mechanism itself, but that wouldn't explain the same behavior w/ external MIDI cc control of Tone Bend.  So now the plot thickens...  I have an external MIDI control source that works perfectly when assigned to the A&B modeling tone pitch in my VG-99, but still exhibits the nasty pitch jump when assigned to Tone Bend in the GR-55, even though the internal pedal works well with your "aggressive" calibration technique.  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Mrchevy

Midi is not my strong point by any means but is possible to calibrate that pedal somehow to the GR55. Either way, I now feel content as this calibration thing might help me smooth out my other little project. Glad it works, at least internally. :D
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

ForestCat

#18
Well, here's a little more info.  I set the modulation wheel on my Kurz PC3x to CC#20 (undefined/unassigned, so "safe" to use...), ran it into Bidule so I could monitor the actual values in real-time, then sent it to the GR-55.  I assigned it to MODEL-Modeling Tone Bend, Target Min 0, Target Max -3, Source Mode: Moment, Act Range Low:0, Act Range Hi:127. 

The instant that the cc value gets to about 2 (out of a max of 127), I hear that distinct "bump", that sounds very much like togging the pickup switch on a Les Paul while a chord is sustaining.  So in this case, I'm thinking it's not calibration, since there is no corresponding "jump" to a higher cc value when the glitch occurs.  The Kurz has a BMW class modwheel, nice, clean linear output in the monitor.  The external pedal is out of the picture. I think what I'm hearing is the smallest increment of pitchbend that the GR-55 is capable of producing via MIDI CC, which is painfully audible as a slight jump in pitch.   If that's true, then that pretty much blows, and I'll bet my left something or another that there is code in the VG-99 to apply an exponential(log?) smoothing curve to the pitchbend process somewhere that was, for reasons known only to Godzilla, Mothra, and Rodan, needlessly omitted from the GR-55.  As it sits, it's useless for subtle pitch bending via MIDI CC.  God, I wanna be wrong (again) about this...

jonathanf106

I tried working with the tone bend myself and it sucks because U shouldnt have to manually pedal bend when there should been a vibrato fx which is a automatic pitch modulator. Assigning that to an expression pedal is so easy on the GT-8/10/100 and then you control the depth of the vibrato from the exp pedal. VG-99 has this effect, GR-55 does to but only designated for the guitar synth, and not for the cosm electric guitars. It would be cool if acoustic and bass guitars could vibrato, so much for infinite endless possibilities.

jonathanf106

#20
The best way to resolve this problem is getting an external pedal for the GR-55, recommend the BEHRINGER ULTRA VIBRATO UV300, it's $30 on eBay, and it's awesome, has the same effects as overpriced Boss VB-2 $250 or TC mini shaker $75.

**  You don't even need an expression pedal with it because the "unlatched mode" on the pedal allows you to expressively use it at will **


All has the same features, as far as setup, if you using COSM guitars with the vibrato pedal you gonna use your Phone/Line port, because it plays everything through there, if you want just your normal, and COSM guitar tones only, use the L/R ports.