GR-55 "Initial Impressions" by new owners.

Started by Elantric, February 04, 2011, 08:03:49 AM

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acoustic356

First impressions?

For starters, I owned a Fishman Triple Play before I gave up guitar and moved to bass for about 2 years. Now I am back as a bassist and a guitar player and saw a deal on a Godin XTSA that was too good to pass up ($399). So... that in my mind justified the cost of the GR-55.

With the Fishman, I had to have:

  • My computer handy
  • My Fishman charged
  • My guitar amp
  • My pedal board for guitar effects

I love being able to plug in and just start! So that's the big positive.

During the 90's I spent a lot of time trying to learn keyboards (especially Rolands) so the editing is fairly intuitive.

Once I adjusted the sensitivity and made a few tweeks, I must say that I'm REALLY happy with this.

I do find the guitar sounds to be overly compressed, but I think that's true of all COSM modeling.

waterpicker

Just recently got a GR-55.

I'm a long time Roland guitar synth user...
Still have my GR300.
I've tried every box I could find... too numerous to mention.
I have had the VG99 since it came out and love it.

First impression of the 55 is disappointment.
The tracking is O.K. but not any better than the previous Roland guitar synths.
I'm sure I can clean it up a bit with the tweaks that are so kindly offered here.

It still seems to suffer from the old dilemma of "the lower you go, the slower you flow".
The lower stings are slower and less responsive.
I think I was hoping for a miracle where Roland defied the laws of physics.
Or at least a more refined tracking system.
Can anybody play the solo marimba patch with accuracy and confidence?

For me right now, the Fishman TP seems to be the state of the art.
It isn't perfect, but it works very well.
Maybe the reason for my disappointment with the 55.

That being said, the Fishman requires a sound source that can receive USB midi.
Not very practical for gigging.

On the positive side...

I'm having a great time playing the sounds.
It is really fun to hear the combination of the PCMs and COSM.
The PCMs are kind of generic, but when mixed with the other stuff they can be cool.
Nice to have it in a sturdy floor pedal too.

I think I have to keep this thing.










Elantric

#1052
My GR-55 remains my most untouched and collecting dust piece of gear 

While its a swiss army knife demonstrator of bulk of Rolands tech in one box - it fails on so many levels that it simply never gets used here

I use my GP-10 and VG-99 and VG-8EX far more  = because they react with the lowest latency and don't throw off my timing during improvisation 

I'm often on the road for my day job, and carry my GP-10 and a Godin, or lately just a Fender Fishman Tripleplay Strat and use its built in audio interface and an iPad and can be musically productive. 

The GP-10 has superior COSM Guitar / Amp Modeling and much deeper live control possibilities with its 4 control pedals   

The VG-99 has the great user interface and dual modeling paths and low latency sounds, but its star trek appearance fails with fellow bandmates stuck in tradition.

With the GR-55 there are just too many compromises and "land mines" to spoil the fun , accidentally press two footswitches and you trigger the looper or audio player by accident at a live gig, and you might get booted out of your band if it happens too many times during a live show.
And the Guitar to PCM triggering has latency that I detest at live gigs  - can't use the Guitar to MIDI (which is higher latency )

vtgearhead

Quote from: Elantric on August 18, 2016, 08:06:59 AM
My GR-55 remains my most untouched and collecting dust piece of gear 

Agree with all your points... I did find that mine makes an excellent doorstop.  Will probably try to sell it off in the near future.

Magiamusical

Quote from: Elantric on August 18, 2016, 08:06:59 AM
My GR-55 remains my most untouched and collecting dust piece of gear 

In my case I use more the GR55 than the GP-10, yes it has some flaws but for a cover band with no keyboards it does the job. It really takes a lot of time to get it to sound right and one in a while you get a ghost note. My door stopper is the GP-10, but will get back to it to see if I can get the sounds I like.  Love this forum.
Godin LGXT, Les Paul Studio w/GK3, JTV89F w/GK3, GR-55

Deacon Blue

     I agree with the merits of the GP-10. I'm considering buying one in the near future.
     I must confess that I'm tired of the 2 guitar/bass gtr bands that generally sound the same all night long. I might of said this before, but nothing is more boring than a guitarist who runs over every damn song with his favorite so called tone. It all boils down to what kind of music you play. Obviously if you play metal/hardcore/punk etc. you don't need this piece of equipment. If you play pop/funk/country/jazz this would definitely work for you.
    For lack of a keyboard player or to supplement the keys with songs requiring piano, brass, organ, flute etc. I find the GR-55 to be indispensible. The string picking articulation is paramount (as most of you know), as you play ahead of the beat because of the latency (which really is lost on the generally public anyway) and your approach, with regard to the different instruments in your arsenal. As most cover musicians know, the varieties of music you play demand that you try to serve the song to the best of your ability.
      I appreciate the blues guitarist who goes straight into his Marshall, and also the guitarist who has 15 pedals on the floor to get that sought-after sound that he/she craves. BUT I like experimentation, and the willingness to give the paying public something more than that usual whatever...
     As a gigging musician in a 4 piece band (drums/keys/guitar/bass), I really appreciate the fact that I can add so much more to a song than just the limitations imposed by my guitar/amp. No, it's not perfect, but neither are the players who use this equipment. I'm looking forward to using the GP-10 for the pickup/open mic gigs and see where it goes....
"When your project isn't working, look for the part that you didn't think was important"
www.Bandmix.com/katylyst

vtgearhead

A year or two back I tried using the GR-55 horn sounds live.  It was acceptable for things like Steely Dan's "Night By Night", since the parts are a bit loose to begin with, but the lag on more funky New Orleans style tunes was obtrusive and drove my drummer nuts.

Elantric

#1057
QuoteA year or two back I tried using the GR-55 horn sounds live.  It was acceptable for things like Steely Dan's "Night By Night", since the parts are a bit loose to begin with, but the lag on more funky New Orleans style tunes was obtrusive and drove my drummer nuts.

I have the same experience  - My solos are typically spontaneous  and if my gear requires playing ahead of the beat to hide the Guitar to MIDI or Guitar to PCM triggering latency. its too much for my brain  to accommodate.

At a live show its all about well placed rhythmic notes  - so the band sounds tight, so for me and my brain  / musicianship  - the combination of Guitar to MIDI or Guitar to PCM triggering latency and improvisational solos don't mix.

Explains why a 1981 GR-300  (trigger all notes under 3.5ms ) is much preferred over Guitar to MIDI or Guitar to PCM triggering systems that require 10 times the triggering time.
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

Even Jeff Becks 1977 GR-500 triggered under 1.5ms  -

The VG-99 COSM Modeling triggers most patches under 4ms, but some are higher -GR-300 sim takes 14ms according to Wayne Joness
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

and the argument that

" Speed of sound (depending on the humidity and temperature that day ) means 30ms latency is no different that standing 25 to 30 feet away from your speaker"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound
http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/chap3Sig/0304delcor.html
It reminds me of my early days when our band in Chicago played our first big stage at a festival  - The Drummer thought it would be cool to "fill the whole stage" and not set up close to each other like we normally did   -  so we setup the bass player at one end of the stage and I set up on the opposite end of the stage  - a good 60 feet separated us from each others amps - the band sounded terrible , because we could never lock into a groove

shawnb

Oddly, my GR-55 is the most-used for me lately.   I've gotten tired of carrying a bunch of stuff around, and for the last few months, whenever playing with folks I've gone with the GR-55 alone or, if more control is desired, the VG-99+FC-300.   

The COSM in the GR-55 is sufficient for my needs.

Plus, what I really enjoy doing - and I'm possibly unique here (?) - is accenting my guitar voices with some synth "bite".  The GR-55 does this very well.   I have modified versions of some of the first few presets that I use a lot (Metal Synth, Legato Solo). 

I rarely play the GR-55's PCM synth tones alone due to the squeals & doubled-notes & mistriggers on many voices.  For me, the GR-55 PCM synth voices are not good for anything percussive (and I include piano in that category).   

However, the GR-55 does pretty darned well with PCM voices with slower attack, including pads, synth voices, organs, strings, etc.  When jamming with buddies & we have 3 guitars, I'll use the GR-55 & play organ or something else to break it up. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

vtgearhead

Quote from: Elantric on August 19, 2016, 06:20:32 AM
" Speed of sound (depending on the humidity and temperature that day ) means 30ms latency is no different that standing 25 to 30 feet away from your speaker"

Anyone who's ever walked that far out into the house while playing through a wireless can testify that 30ms is a Very Big Deal. Even if you don't feel that way, the rest of the band who've had to put up with the out-of-sync stage sound will quickly convince you of the error of your ways :-) 

I've heard all the arguments about humans not being able to perceive very short delays, but most humans are not musicians. Even very short delays in pick or keyboard response manifest in a noticeable difference in "feel" even if your ear doesn't say "there's a delay".

Elantric

#1060
QuoteI've heard all the arguments about humans not being able to perceive very short delays, but most humans are not musicians. Even very short delays in pick or keyboard response manifest in a noticeable difference in "feel" even if your ear doesn't say "there's a delay".

Agreed! I detect anything over 7 milliseconds

and I typically prefer to stand about 6 feet in front of my amp at live gigs - go figure!

more about latency here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12835.msg134782#msg134782

And i really can tell the difference between 23 ms vs 30 ms - often adding just 7 ms more latency is the proverbial  "straw that breaks the camel's back"

chrish

#1061
Quote from: snhirsch on August 19, 2016, 01:51:12 PM
Anyone who's ever walked that far out into the house while playing through a wireless can testify that 30ms is a Very Big Deal. Even if you don't feel that way, the rest of the band who've had to put up with the out-of-sync stage sound will quickly convince you of the error of your ways :-) 

I've heard all the arguments about humans not being able to perceive very short delays, but most humans are not musicians. Even very short delays in pick or keyboard response manifest in a noticeable difference in "feel" even if your ear doesn't say "there's a delay".

I've done that foh wireless thing and my bandmates hated it. The sound mix out there is better than the stage jumble and i didn't notice the lantency.

At one hippie jam show i even walked out about 50 feet to serenade my wife and give her a kiss, gained many points there and the crowd enjoyed it. Well worth the lantency.

While our band used guitar synths, I couldn't convince the drummer to play to a looped rhythm or bass part.

However, both the other synth guitarist and drummer liked to drink beer during our mid break. And that's a sure way to add lantency and play out of the pocket. 

shawnb

#1062
Once you understand the GR-55's problems, you can figure out how to work with it.  It's been said many times in this forum regarding many pieces of gear - play it, learn it, and figure out how to play to its strengths & circumvent its weaknesses. 

There are two problems with the Roland guitar gear in general, & especially the GR-55, in my humble opinion:
  (1) Latency varies significantly by string for PCM tones.  You can do pretty good staying in a narrow range of strings, but don't expect to effortlessly go from the High E to the Low E rapidly, since the High E has different latency than the Low E.  Stay within 1 or 2 or 3 strings in solos.  Avoid Low E & A wherever you can.  (Those guys who do amazing stuff on YouTube?  Watch what strings they play...)
  (2) Latency inconsistency, even on the same string, for PCM tones.  If it were consistent, it would be straightforward to compensate.  But the latency varies a lot, 50% ish even on the same string, so it is difficult to compensate.  Especially on the low strings.  I think this is the main reason why 'percussive' voices don't do so well on the GR-55.  It's hard to stick a rhythm.  To address on the GR-55, avoid percussive voices, including piano.

I love the GR-55.  Play around its limitations.  EVERY piece of gear has its limitations.  If you were hoping to do drums, sax & classical piano, this is not the tool. 

But there is A LOT of other ground where it excels...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

waterpicker

Great post shawnb!

I'm starting to "get it".
I'm very new to the 55 but very old to guit synths.... years and years.
I think I was expecting better PCM tracking, but that isn't the strength of the 55.

Just got the FloorBoard app and I'm seeing the power of what is possible.
Pretty amazing.
I will dive in and see what happens.

Thanks!






waterpicker

I'm finding some great sounds, even with the varieties of slow and inconstant tracking.

Maybe next version will fix this?
Maybe not possible with this tech.

That being said...
Pretty amazing sound programming with the floorboard app.

Worth it for me.




lespauled

What pickup are you using?  I've used a GK-2a, GK-3, Ghost and RMC, and I've never had a problem with slow tracking.  In fact, I have tried (on many occasions) to try and find the limit, and it's always track perfectly.

also, don't wait for an update.  This might be on the "we've moved on" list of firmware upgrades.

waterpicker

Quote from: lespauled on August 24, 2016, 09:55:37 AM
What pickup are you using?  I've used a GK-2a, GK-3, Ghost and RMC, and I've never had a problem with slow tracking.  In fact, I have tried (on many occasions) to try and find the limit, and it's always track perfectly.

also, don't wait for an update.  This might be on the "we've moved on" list of firmware upgrades.

Thanks for your message.
I'm using a GK3, GK2a and a piezo in a Godin.

I'm new to the 55, but have been guit synthing since the GR300.

For the PCM sounds, the 55 triggers slower as I play lower on the fingerboard.
Slower and more prone to mis-triggers.
Same as all of the Roland stuff that is based on this system.
Not bad, but I am hoping for a better solution.

That being said,
I'm loving the 55.

Amazing sonic potential...

Elantric

QuoteFor the PCM sounds, the 55 triggers slower as I play lower on the fingerboard.
Slower and more prone to mis-triggers.
Same as all of the Roland stuff that is based on this system.


Same experience with my dusty GR-55 here

gecko_tx

I tried to like the GR-55, I just couldn't deal with the poor tracking and note doubling, so I sold it and went back to my trusty old GR-30 and bought a GP-10, which I really like so far.

gecko_tx

Quote from: waterpicker on August 18, 2016, 01:24:41 AM

Can anybody play the solo marimba patch with accuracy and confidence?


My experience with the GR-55 was that any percussive sound (piano, marimba, drums) had poor tracking and double notes. By adjusting the patch Level Velocity Sensitivity, Curve and Nuance settings you can fix a lot of the glitching but not all. I believe this must be a flaw in the design. I was shocked at how much better my old GR-30 tracked compared to the "newer" Roland tech. I have always enjoyed playing tuned percussion type sounds on guitar synth and was unable to do that on the GR-55. I eventually sold it and went back to the GR-30, it works like a champ.

Elantric

#1070
QuoteI was shocked at how much better my old GR-30 tracked compared to the "newer" Roland tech.

its true - the older GR-30 and GR-33 work a lot better for percussive sounds compared to GR-55

more reading:

GR-33 FAQ
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14682.msg134718#msg134718
Recently acquired a used GR-33 and it came with four 30 foot high quality 13 pin cables, and a GK-2A and a gig bag. I think I paid $220

The GR-33 has sounds that in many cases are superior to the GR-55  - like the Sax , and the Pianos actually trigger with much less glitching compared to GR-55
( the GR-33 remains in Steve Vai's studio as a tool today) and GR-33 works great as a mutitimbral MIDI tone module for use with the Fishman FTP
I used FTP USB Receiver  into the old first gen black iConnectMIDI box as a USB Host to 5 pin MIDI converter box. - worked great!


Recently I was debugging MIDI gear with a GR-33 as MIDI Tone Module, and we discovered the GR-33's internal Sound engine can accept simultaneous signal input from either the GK 13 pin input jack or the 5 pin MIDI Input jack at the same time.

That opens many doors for live use with an external MIDI sequencer in tandem with live GK-3 triggered performance


Baimun

I'm only 3 days into my GR-55... so here is my report so far.

I've never been a synth/midi guy despite my network engineering background (or actually, probably because of it).  When I'm off work, the last thing I want to do is drill into a menu or update firmware.  Yuck... I want to plug my guitar into a tube amp and make some music.

That said, I do quite a bit of live looping so I was looking for a way to easily layer in some sounds that are different than my normal clean or dirty guitar tones and build verses and choruses to sing and play over.

Installing the pickup was a tedious but not terribly difficult process with the included spacers, sticky tape, and string height measuring guide.  I watched videos and read ahead days before the unit arrived so I immediately dialed in the scale length, spacing, and sensitivity settings.

A quick run through all of the built in sounds left me feeling neutral about the guitar tones, so it was an easy choice for my needs to forego the short 1/4" cable and instead run dual cables to my two pedal boards... analogue guitar and 13 pin synth.

The bass sounds track so smooth and immediate compared to any octaver I've tried for creating bass lines in my looper.  Fantastic.  The next thing was I sorted out two different horn patches that will work for many of our Stevie Wonder or Funk covers.  Those alone were worth the price of admission!!!

My next step is to find some really good Stevie Wonder style clav or electric piano patches.  None of the factory ones jumped out at me.

I also need a good steel drum-ish sounding patch for Jimmy Buffett type tunes.  My first attempt at building one from scratch made a patch that was gitchy and didn't track well which was surprising considering how every factory patch tracks so perfectly.  I'll chalk it up to learning curve.  A xylophone type patch worked better but still isn't quite right for Buffett.  I'll check the forums here and download the patch editor.

Looking forward to finding some useful information here.


Baimun

Nothing like being thrown into the fire.....

With only 3 days of practice on the GR-55 our Keyboard player was unable to attend this past weekend's gig so I stepped in and added the GR-55 for horns, keys, and steel drum on a half dozen different songs throughout the set.  My favorite was probably "Vehicle" from Ides of March.  I live looped the rhythm guitar and played the signature trumpet lines... and then when I played the ascending parts, I would stab in horn hits to accent certain chords.  The puzzled looks from some of the audience members (and even the other two guys in the band) were priceless. :D


kenact

Quote from: baimun on November 08, 2016, 07:41:05 AM
My favorite was probably "Vehicle" from Ides of March.  I live looped the rhythm guitar and played the signature trumpet lines... and then when I played the ascending parts, I would stab in horn hits to accent certain chords.  The puzzled looks from some of the audience members (and even the other two guys in the band) were priceless. :D


I do the horns in Vehicle on my GR-33. I use the Intelligent Harmonizer for the second line of the intro.
Godin Session & Montreal FTP, LGXT, LGX SA, Redline, ACS, A12, A11, A10, A4
Danoblaster Baritone w/GK-3
Gretsch Nashville, Viking
Fender Strats
Fret King Supermatic
Larrivee DV03RE
Parker Midi Fly
Seagull, S&P 12
VOX Phantom XII
GR-55, 33, 30, 20, GI-20, RC-50, US-20, VG-99, VP-7
Sentient 6
Cyr 7

aliensporebomb

Baimun:  The assimilation is COMPLETE!  Enjoy!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.