Fender Mustang Amplifiers?

Started by Atros, August 28, 2012, 01:30:22 AM

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Atros

I'm relatively new to using the GR-55, and I'm trying to get an idea for future possible setups to use with it.  Right now, my main guitar is a Godin xtSA that's only connected to the GR-55 through the 13 pin.  For the output, I'm using a Roland Cube 30x Amplifier.  I have signals set up such that the the main pickups are always set to go out through the Guitar Out, and sent to the main input on the amplifier.  For the synth output, I have that going out through the headphone out, and then sent to the Aux In port on the Amplifier.  This is working well for me as I can use the amplifiers settings for effects and such for the actual guitar tones, and can use the pedal/guitar dials to dial in a particular mix of tones on the fly.

Now, while I'm satisfied with this setup for my own personal use, I doubt that a 30W amp will be sufficient for any gigging purposes, and I'm trying to look down the road.  I know that Roland makes a larger version of the Cube in the 80XL that would basically have some straight across feature parity, but I'm also considering the Fender Mustang Amplifiers... either the 4 or the 5, both 150W, with the main difference being that the 4 is a single piece, while the 5 is a head and cabinet.

Does anybody have any experience with this type of setup using the Fender Mustang amp's?  Also, does anybody have any experience/thoughts/concerns about this setup in a more general sense, with whatever type of amplifier?  Thank you.

Litesnsirens

Does your cube 30 have a direct out? That will send its processed guitar signal to a PA?   If so, I might be inclined to keep it and spend money on a full range powered speaker like a Yamaha DXR series or something from QSC.   Both have 3 channel "mixers" right on the back of them.  If you in a situation where your cube doesn't have enough power just run a line from the cube to one of the inputs on the powered speaker.  If you don't need the extra power, you can choose to run it through or not.  Either way, running the GR-55 direct to the powered speaker will give you the best GR-55 tones.  Both of those powered speaker options have in the neighbourhood of a kilowatt of power so their plenty loud enough for any situation and they are easy to transport and sound great.

Atros

No direct out on the Cube 30X... the closest thing is the headphones out which is definitely not the same thing.  Also, I realized early this morning after I posted this that this question should probably be in the Amplifiers section... if one of the mods could please move it over?

Elantric

#3
Several here do use the Roland Cube 80 XL, in the exact same manner you are currently using your Gr-55 with the Cube 30X.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6471.0


The higher wattage Cube 80 XL is a great amp - I play through mine several times a week.


The Mustang III with 100 watts is the closest Mustang amp for comparison - but I would not recommend one, due to the ongoing issue with  the "fizz anomaly" that plagues all high wattage Fender Mustang amps. \

2015 EDIT - Mustang III "fizz" was resolved with the "V2" versions

Read about it here:
http://www.fender.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=57294 


Mrchevy

#4
Ah, a subject I definitely know a little about. I have the Mustang 4. As for the "fizz" thing, yes some have it ( III, IV ,V ) some don't. They have audio samples of the fizz on the fender forum. I can hear a touch of it in mine but if I hadn't listened to the sample I probably would have never noticed it. It is not an issue for me. The amp on its own is a great amp for cleans and mild dirt and grit sounds. If you want a real high gain sound for metal or the like, forget it. It will do it, but not well (IMO). As for your question of using it with the GR55, yes it has an MP3/aux in(1/8") but does a very poor job of producing quality audio for that purpose, as would most guitar amps. I have tried many variable setup's with it, the GR55, and my GT10. I now have all 3 going into a Mackie board then out to powered monitors ( alto TS110A ). Everything sounds great. On the mustang amp you have 2 line out options, EFFECTS SEND (1/4") or HEADPHONES OUT (1/8" piece of crap jack) that is prone to breaking. I actually did a mod and installed a 1/4" headphone jack ( no I'm not the idiot that did the Youtube video on this mod, I did it right.) Reason being is the headphone out runs thru the cabinet emulators, the effects send doesn't, so it sounds better thru the headphone jack going direct. If I had it to do over I would have saved a few bucks and got the Fender Mustang Floor as it is better suited for direct use (same guts without the weight ). The GR55 GUITAR OUT jack is not really an issue going into it as long as your not using high gain settings ( thats where the noise is). Some have run a 1/4" cable direct from the guitar output to the amp guitar input instead of the short cable to the GK3, and alleviate most of the noise and there is also a mod for the GR55 to install an output jack in it that bypasses the GK3 OP amp with similar results.
Bottom line is, if you want to use a guitar amp, stick with pedals but the GR55 is ALWAYS going to sound better direct thru a sound system.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Atros

My xtSA has a piezo pickup with built in preamp alongside the coils, allowing for a more acoustic-like sound, and it can all be mixed out on the guitar, with an out for the coils, an out for the acoustic that also has the coils mixed, as well as the 13 pin that sends the latter signal down along with the rest.

I saw the Fender Mustang floor, but hadn't seriously considered it as I was trying to look at amps.  However, if in a band setup, it definitely intrigues me, especially with the XLR outs.. could use that and plug in directly to whichever PA is being used and mixed from there, along with my GR-55.

I'm not particularly worried about going for an ultra high gain metal setup, but more for something with some range.  For something like that, I'm sure you'd want something more specialized, anyway.

For now, though, I think I'll be fine with what I have.  30W I would imagine would be sufficient for most small things anyway, and if I were to be going for something bigger, I could probably get my amp mic'd into whatever PA is being used.

Toby Krebs

Line6 POD HD300 kills all Fender Mustang amps and or floor processors.I bought and returned one of the fizzy Mustangs. Great Fender Twin sounds but the artifacts and fizzy fuzz was the worst of any I have heard. Too poor of a sound quality for any serious work. The Line 6 HD300 has no drop outs and great building blocks for sounds. Good editor too. When I don't want to carry 2 PA speakers I use a Roland KC300 with an Eminence Delta 12A PA driver in it and upgraded tweeter. Small and loud as hell! For processed guitar most of the time it is an original Flextone amp with the same high powered speaker. The two together really do the job.

Mrchevy

#7
I know this thread has been dormant for a while but I thought I would throw in an update for reference. I recently found a Fender Ultimate Chorus 212, which is what I really wanted when I got the Mustang IV. I have found that I really like the Mustang IV sounds. It does a really good job of simulating the fender line of amps. What I did was bought the Ultimate chorus (used), the Mustang Floorboard ( new) both for under $300.00 total, and sold the Mustang IV. The Ultimate Chorus is an older solid state amp and built much better than the Mustangs and is better sounding with the Floorboard than the amp version. I have to say, while the mustang floor is much more basic in it's functions compared to my GT10, it does what it is suppose to well. I find that I'm using it more and my GT10 less just because it flat out sounds good thru the UC amp and doesn't take a month of Sundays and a college education to get a good sound out of it. I run the guitar out of the GR55 to the mustang floor input, then 1/4" L/R outputs to the stereo effects return on the amp, and also the L/R XLR outputs from the Mustang Floor to my 8 channel mixer which feeds my powered PA speakers. good sound to the PA, good sound to the amp.
Quote from: Toby Krebs on September 03, 2012, 08:56:21 AM
Line6 POD HD300 kills all Fender Mustang amps and or floor processors
I hope we agree to disagree but I had a POD Pro and never got much out of it I liked. I found it to be un-user friendly in it's programing. Is the Mustang series the do-all of MFX processors, not at all. I know I spent weeks learning the GT10 just to be able to use it. The Mustang Floor, a couple of days and I had a slew of good sounding presets and was playing instead of fiddling.
To summarize the original question about the Mustang IV or V, if you like the sound of the amp for your guitar sounds, I might suggest the Floorboard with a GOOD amp but still run the GR55 to a PA type setup.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

tyler_z

Fender Mustang is really good amp. It's more beginner one but it is really sensitive :) It shows your playing mistakes, so it helps building chops. It has so many built-in features + fuse program for creating your own sounds + Ableton lite version for Fender (audio recording). All that stuff is available for really good price :)

Elantric

#9
Just an update on the Mustang Amps and Mustang Floor 


* Read the Advanced Fender Mustang Floor Manual in the last pages and see the MIDI Appendix. It will send MIDI CC# messages, and Expression pedal can be mapped to send a different MIDI CC# for every patch,  and also send patch change commands - limited to 0-99

* Note the Mustang Floor MIDI I/O data is available on the 5pin DIN MIDI I/O Ports only - not USB

* Also should state the Fender Mustang Amp and Floor USB Class Compliant Audio interface is one way only, limited to sending Audio Out from the Mustang to your DAW, a separate audio interface is required for playback audio from the DAW.

Note the Fender GDEC 3 does not have this restriction - the GDEC 3 is a full featured USB Audio I/O interface.


Toby Krebs

Fender Ultimate Chorus 2x12 is a Great Amp! As good IMHO as the mighty JC-120! Repaired one recently and was surprised at how good it sounded. And no fizz...

Mrchevy

I just found another UC on craigslist a couple of days ago for $300. Would have jumped on it if I hadn't already bought one for less than half that  ;D
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Toby Krebs

A good clean loud (and they are very loud) solid state amp is hard to beat. I have to add something to my earlier post about the Mustang fizz amp I returned. When I returned it the next day I bought a used mint Blues Deluxe Reissue for 400 and change which I love to play and just recently I bought a brand new two tone black and red Fender HRDLX that I just wanted to have. I am a Fender guy and have been for years. Most of my patches in the GR55 are built around Fender amp models. Love Them. Long Live Fender!

supernicd

#13
I picked up a Mustang IV a few weeks ago.  Sweetwater bought out Fender's remaining inventory of v1s, and unloaded them at a price too tempting for me to pass up and thought I'd try it out.

First, I don't notice any issues with a fizz sound.  I'm not sure if I got lucky, or if I'm half deaf from being in bands too many years, or if perhaps Fender got this sorted on later manufacturing runs. 

I'm running the GR-55 from its headphone out into the stereo AUX in on the Mustang.  I'm also running from the GR-55's guitar out into the front of the amp.  I had originally went from the 1/4" outs on the 55 into the stereo return of the Mustang but I found the aux in for some reason sounds better.  Also if something is plugged into the Mustang's FX return but nothing into the send, it will cut out the sound made by the internal modeler so you can't use it for Fenders modeling that way.

Initial impressions:

  • I am really digging having some effects in stereo
  • The Mustang seems to deliver a decent flat-ish response over the audible frequency range.  I haven't measured it, just using my ears.  Not quite FRFR but I think it'll be good enough for stage use.  I seem to be getting more low end than I do with my Cube 80XL.
  • I really like the Supersonic model on the Fender. I've never owned a Supersonic so I can't say how close it is to the real deal, but whether or not it is dead on, it is cool sounding in its own right.
  • It does seem a little cheaply constructed but it is a pretty amp. I'm not particularly hard on gear so I think it should hold up.  The one thing that concerns me is the aux in jack, and whether it will stand the test of time.
  • It is plenty loud
  • Fender did a really nice job with the 4 button foot switch.  You get a lot of control with it. Only thing I wish they'd done was work a tap tempo function into it.
  • When I finally got around to installing the Fuse software I was pleasantly surprised to find an adjustable gate on each amp model, which I thought was a missing effect.

Just wanted to share my impressions since there weren't a ton of posts about this amp on this forum.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

#14
Thanks for the report on the Mustang IV combo.

FWIW - the Mustang Floor does have a Tap Tempo and MIDI Control.

I'm contemplating adding tweeters to my 2004 Line6 Vetta Combo.

supernicd

#15
Ah, good to know.  On the Mustang IV amp, there is a tap tempo on the face of the panel, just not on the foot switch, and it does save tempo info with the patch.  So it's good enough.

For my purposes, I was really looking mostly for a reasonably lightweight, solid state, stereo amp/cab for use with the GR-55 (or GT-100/HD500) at a good price point, and any good tones it can create on its own are a bonus.  This seems to be fitting the bill for this purpose and does have some nice sounds on its own.  Particularly the Fender models, of course, but some of the other models are decent too.

Will be trying it at a rehearsal this evening and assuming that goes well, a show this weekend.  Will report back if my opinion changes after that!

I'd be interested to know how adding the tweeter to the Line 6 amp goes, if you decide to try it!
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

#16
Cool -

That was a good deal at $299 for a stereo amp I recall! (now sold out!)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mustang4

I actually prefer the Fender Mustang Amp DSP modelling to any Roland, but noise can be an issue with many Fender mustang models.

supernicd

#17
Yep, actually thought about posting it to the deal alert thread after I had a chance to evaluate it but they went too fast.  But still decided it's worth recording my experiences as the v.2's are still available and have more features (and are actually lighter-weight).

I'm not sure if I prefer Fender's modeling to Roland's.  But Fender's is good too, and I'll say this - it sure seems easier to dial in a good tone than it is with Roland gear.  As much as I love having all of the parameters and options on the GR-55, one thing that seems to be a frequent occurrence for me is this.

1.  I dial in a good tone
2.  I proceed to ruin it by continuing to tweak
3.  I can't get back to the original good tone because I didn't realize it was done and didn't save the snapshot.

I'm sure I'm not alone here. :)

There is some beauty in the Mustang series in having some good models, and enough parameters to fine tune but not so many as to get yourself off-task.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

#18
QuoteYep, actually thought about posting it to the deal alert thread after I had a chance to evaluate it but they went too fast.  But still decided it's worth recording my experiences as the v.2's are still available and have more features (and are actually lighter-weight).

I'm not sure if I prefer Fender's modeling to Roland's.  But Fender's is good too, and I'll say this - it sure seems easier to dial in a good tone than it is with Roland gear.  As much as I love having all of the parameters and options on the GR-55, one thing that seems to be a frequent occurrence for me is this.

1.  I dial in a good tone
2.  I proceed to ruin it by continuing to tweak
3.  I can't get back to the original good tone because I didn't realize it was done and didn't save the snapshot.

I'm sure I'm not alone here. :)

There is some beauty in the Mustang series in having some good models, and enough parameters to fine tune but not so many as to get yourself off-task.



Well said! - been there done that.

I find it much faster to dial in a working tone on the Fender Mustang - and continued editing typically makes the patch get better.

By contrast all too often on the VG-99 / GR-55 if you spend too much time editing, you can actually end up with a worse tone than you had just 30 minutes before.

So important lesson - Save frequently several versions of your Roland "work in progress" patch - else you may find all your efforts are really a "work in regress" ;)   

Toby Krebs

I spent the last month gigging without any GR55 or synths and used several of my tube amps and analog pedals setups. Started the process today of tweaking my GR55s after hearing tube amps for a month. I have to say that the models in the GR55 are pretty damn close to the real thing especially with a couple of pedals in front of the amp models. Not much tweaking to do to what I already have.Also I found that I had to play a lot louder with the tube amps than I do with the GR55 LOL! It was fun!!!

Jim Williams

Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

supernicd

LOL, "work in regress."  You should trademark that.  :)

The other lesson that I seem to have to learn over and over when working with Roland v-guitar gear (also applies to other gear with a sufficiently large number of parameters to tweak) is to limit the time I spend working on a patch.  Much like mixing and producing a recording, ear fatigue is the enemy here.  The longer I go, the easier it is to convince myself that something sounds good and that my knob twisting is making improvements.  Then after an hour break, I come back only to wonder how I ever convinced myself I have a winning patch. Note to self: frequent breaks = better tones.

That's interesting to get your take on the A/B comparison between the 55s models and the real deal, Tony.  I've owned maybe a half dozen tube amps (currently down to 2) but really I've not owned the vast majority of the gear modeled in the 55. So I can't say how close it sounds or doesn't.

Recently it's become less important to me how accurate the model is. What matters to me now is that I can dial in a tone that sounds great, is fun and inspirational to play, that sits nicely in a mix, and packs some punch/moves some air. OK, I'm not sure I described that last part well but I'm guessing you know the particular phenomenon I'm talking about.

The other day I was building a patch and was just sure I needed the sound of a CLEAN TWIN with a low gain T-SCREAM in front.  As it turned out, what I really wanted was a MATCH DRIVE with no additional distortion pedal.  So the model name kind of mislead me for a while.   I'm not sure if my mental map of what these devices should sound like is off, or if the modeling isn't quite on, or if the Mustang cabinet changed the equation a bit.  In the end though I did get the sound I wanted even if it wasn't built the way I thought it should have been.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Toby Krebs

I agree that ear fatigue can kill a mix/patch/mastering session/ etc...very true. I currently keep the following amps around for different purposes: 1982 Marshall JCM 800 model 4010 combo/Fender BDRI/ Hot Rod Deluxe III/Crate V1512/Egnater Tweaker head and 2 1x12 cabs. They give me a good reference for the tones I want to get out of all of my various modelling devices. For some of the stuff I have to do live I have to use tube amps. As an example if I know I will be playing a lot of Hendrix/Trower/Strat w/ Marshall type things in a big room or at an open air venue I will use my JCM combo and one of the Fenders with a Line 6 M13 pedal. IMHO modellers will not do those kinds of things very well. For the rest of it the GR55 is great with full range amps and I can convincingly get all the guitar and keyboard tones for the meat and potatoes covers I play 80 per cent of the time.And man  am I grateful for that technology and the fact that I don't have to roast my tube amps at every gig and spend all my time biasing output tubes and replacing burnt screen grid resistors etc...

I was thrilled with my Mustang amp for the few days I had it and sad to have to return it because of fizz. Fizz I noticed before I read anything on the net about it. But I have to say that both my Fender tube amps have been trouble free and pack a serious punch that I felt the Mustang just did not have at high volume. I mean ear plug volume LOL! On Friday night I will be using my GR55 with padals(Boss Compressor/OCD/modded DS-1 and GE-7) to back up a good female vocalist playing soul and Motown stuff. The GR55 is unbeatable for that! Looking forward to using it again.

supernicd

I have yet to notice anything I'd describe as fizz, or any unmusical sound for that matter...  Hoping that maybe Fender got this sorted out on the later production runs.

Just curious, if you remember, is there a certain thing you can do to get it to reproduce it?  I.e. is it only on certain amp models or with certain effects, or only at very high volumes?  I have a few days left that I could return it.  I don't really want to return it - but I would hate to find out past the return period that it has a serious flaw that I can't live with.
Strat w/ GK-3, Godin LGXT
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10
---------------------------------------------------------------

Elantric

#24
QuoteToby, You change gear more than I do.LOL

I probably top Toby in my gear change - i just dont post my other excursions using my vintage blackface Fenders,Kustom Defender 15, Vox AC30TB, etc.

QuoteJust curious, if you remember, is there a certain thing you can do to get it to reproduce it?  I.e. is it only on certain amp models or with certain effects, or only at very high volumes?  I have a few days left that I could return it.  I don't really want to return it - but I would hate to find out past the return period that it has a serious flaw that I can't live with.

I recall most complaints regarding Fender Mustang Fizz would occur as follows

1) Set the amp at a loud live performance volume , and play a preset with a medium to high distortion 

2) Strum One Ac/DC type Power Chord  - let it ring for 30 seconds

3) at the 15 second mark  - listen closely for any fizz, breakup, anomalies - yes these will be at reduced volume - but some Mustang Rev1 amps suffer more "Fizz at the 15 seconds after the strum" than others, and (for sure) some Mustang DSP Amp Models suffer more fizz than others.


4) My understanding is many blamed the power amp and some Mustang Rev1 amps would exhibit Fizz sound at the .0001 second mark! - but its my observation that many factory presets have the noise gate turned off. (use Fender Fuse Editor to enable the Noise Gate with settings for your preference to help tame the Fizz) For my Playing style I prefer playing with No Noise gate, as I like to have the full Dynamic Range available at any time - from  "Whisper" (by playing lightly with my fingers) to "Scream" (by Pete Townsend style Windmill Strums with a Pick/Plectrum)   on every patch -