VG99 with six string bass and GK3

Started by pasha811, October 27, 2016, 11:23:46 AM

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pasha811

Got a friend who asked me a lot of question about VG99 I cannot answer so I though about the ultimate resource. VGF!

Use cases:

  • Six String Bass with GK3 PU. Strings the thinnest you can on a Bass. Usage is for MIDI trigger (Mainstage, VST or MIDI Hardware expander with Synth Bass sounds
  • Six String Bass with GK3 PU. Strings the thinnest you can on a Bass. Usage is for COSM trigger of Bass Models and Amps plus Bass Synth (HRM) in VG99
  • Six String Bass without GK3 PU. Strings the thinnest you can on a Bass. Usage is for mono MIDI in VG99 (this works with my normal PU and Guitar)

Overall I am skeptical, because I am afraid that both the HRM COSM portion and the MIDI conversion engine would not work when triggered by the notes range of a six string Bass Guitar, unless you play 1 octave higher (thus overlapping a Guitar range). I think that also the GK3 will not pick up notes correctly even if the strings are thin. What do you think?

Best
Pasha ???
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

#1
Quote
Got a friend who asked me a lot of question about VG99 I cannot answer so I though about the ultimate resource. VGF!

Use cases:
Six String Bass with GK3 PU. Strings the thinnest you can on a Bass. Usage is for MIDI trigger (Mainstage, VST or MIDI Hardware expander with Synth Bass sounds
Six String Bass with GK3 PU. Strings the thinnest you can on a Bass. Usage is for COSM trigger of Bass Models and Amps plus Bass Synth (HRM) in VG99
Six String Bass without GK3 PU. Strings the thinnest you can on a Bass. Usage is for mono MIDI in VG99 (this works with my normal PU and Guitar)
Overall I am skeptical, because I am afraid that both the HRM COSM portion and the MIDI conversion engine would not work when triggered by the notes range of a six string Bass Guitar, unless you play 1 octave higher (thus overlapping a Guitar range). I think that also the GK3 will not pick up notes correctly even if the strings are thin. What do you think?

Correct - VG-99 is the wrong tool for 6 string Bass Guitar  - because the VG-99 V-Guitar Processor is NOT designed for use when the connected GK 13 pin instrument's strings are tuned to the lower frequency range of a Bass   

Instead, What your friend seeks is called

Roland VB-99 V-Bass System (2008-2011)

And they remain the most expensive "V-Bass" system - in 2016, I have never seen one in the used sales channels less than $750 

Here is the VB-99 forum
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=58.0





https://www.roland.com/us/products/vb-99/

When Roland introduced the original V-Bass System, serious bass players worldwide took notice. Now, we are proud to introduce the VB-99 V-Bass, which delivers three times the sonic firepower of the original model! Based on an all-new custom processing engine and 10 years of research and development, the VB-99 serves up a wide range of inspiring new COSM bass and amplifier models, powerful polyphonic effects, new string modeling technology, dual independent signal paths for blending sounds, and new controllers. It also features a host of thoughtful improvements that bassists demanded, such as bass–to-MIDI converters, streaming audio via USB, and much more.

Most advanced bass processor ever
Dozens of COSM instrument models, including coveted vintage and modern basses, amps, synth basses, effects and even electric guitars
Converts bass to MIDI and streams audio via USB audio sources
Dual independent stereo signal paths can be layered or switched: allows two different virtual sounds at the same time
Allows users to play polyphonic synth bass sounds without tracking issues
Table-top configuration, rack mountable, or stand mountable
Stereo XLR, stereo 1/4", MIDI, SP/DIF and USB outputs
Advanced new real-time controllers: D Beam, ribbon and V-Link


have your friend download and review the Roland VB-99 Editor  - it can launch and run without owning the VB-99  - and this is a swift method to determine all the capabilities and secrets of the VB-99 V-Bass system

https://www.roland.com/us/support/by_product/vb-99/updates_drivers/6ff4a9e1-2df2-48ba-a2f3-c2b0efb8bce1/



Or consider a GR-55 running in Bass Instrument mode - but it lacks many of the VB-99 functions and triggers the internal PCM slower (higher latency) compared to a VB-99

pasha811

Thanks Elantric,

This confirms my suspects. Although I have heard of VB99 I have never tried one or seen one in the shop.
I know about a GK for 4 string bass, don't know about a 6 string version. In that case will a GK13 work with VB99 or GR55?
As a former Bass player myself I always make jokes to my friends Bass Gtr Players, about 'if you want a Guitar, buy one, Bass Guitars were born with 4 strings for a reason....' and then we have a beer :-) ;D

Cheers
Paolo
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

#3
The Roland GK-3B for Bass supports 6 string Basses

Read the docs


https://www.roland.com/global/products/gk-3b/


https://www.roland.com/global/support/by_product/gk-3b/owners_manuals/207a4e60-75ef-4076-a611-c20e477806b4/

GK Bass pics are here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3022.0

Here is Roland GK-3B on 6 string Bass



But remember Roland did not build many VB-99 units , it was discontinued in 2011 and today they command high prices. Higher than VG-99


In my experience the Bass Players I know are always working and making more  money than most guitar players in my town

aliensporebomb

I've also never seen a VB-99 and I haunt music shops locally.  I haven't seen a VG-99 in a shop locally in two or three years and that one was used (that I should have bought!).

Contrarian possible alternative use - six string guitar with a VG-99 with bass oriented patches. 

There are many times on my tunes that you can't tell if it's a bass guitar (I own an Ibanez Six String Bass with active electronics) and the VG-99 with a six string guitar running a six string bass patch! 

You know, I haven't found a GK3 for bass to mount on my bass but it would be interesting to see what would happen if I ran the bass through the VG-99 - after all, it's doing signal processing for the most part.  I HAVE run the bass through the quarter inch input on the VG-99 just to use it as an audio interface.  Hmmmm.  Maybe I just thought of a whole new way to use the VG-99.   Thinking. 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

#5
QuoteI've also never seen a VB-99 and I haunt music shops locally.  I haven't seen a VG-99 in a shop locally in two or three years and that one was used (that I should have bought!).

Most VB-99's were special order - most Roland dealers never stocked them, since they felt they were high priced and a required a special customer

QuoteYou know, I haven't found a GK3 for bass to mount on my bass but it would be interesting to see what would happen if I ran the bass through the VG-99 - after all, it's doing signal processing for the most part.

You can try - but know the VG-99 has internal brickwall filters on than will restrict the lower Bass Guitar frequencies

relevant posts:

VanceG posted in 2008
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=257.msg1447#msg1447
QuoteAs has been said in some other threads, the COSM guitar, amp and effect modeling seems to work quite well with instruments with "lower than normal" pitch.  I've used a VG-99 on my Baritone and on a Warr guitar-like instrument (tuned much like a stick) and everything that DOESN'T use pitch tracking of some sort works well.

I do think you'd need some form of mixer to combine the signals from two VG-99s. There is not a good way to run an aux stereo signal from one into another.  But, you could easily use a laptop interface with 4 inputs to run the two VG-99s into a laptop...better still, two SPDIF interfaces so you could run digital into the laptop.

I suspect that Roland will someday come out with a Bass version of the VG-99, but I base this only on the fact that they came out with the V-Bass after the VG-88 and the fact that they say specifically that the VG-99 doesn't support lower tuned instruments...it just makes sense that they would someday come out with a VG-99Bass unit..

Vance

The VG-99 was introduced in 2007

a year later the VB-99 was introduced in 2008


XRAYSIMON explains his KOYABU live setup,ROLAND VG-99, VB-99,etc.
« on: April 22, 2010, 09:52:47 AM »
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2439.msg14085#msg14085



In 2008 many VG-99 owners requested Roland Japan to consider offering a resource for loading VB-99 Bass firmware into the VG-99 Guitar processor, but there are other internal differences between the VG-99 vs VB-99 (the analog input sections of each product) which dictates why Roland    said "not possible" 


Roland official response was the 2011 GR-55 that allows the user to boot into:

*  "Guitar Mode" for GK-3 equipped Guitars 

or

* Bass Mode" for GK-3B equipped Bass instruments

Beirne

When using a 6 string bass with vb99 or gr55 I suggest tune EADGCF  instead of the low B. And if you need the low B string tuning, have the unit transpose everything down. So better triggering and latency.
www.intangiblesny.com
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aliensporebomb

Well I tried my six string bass through the quarter inch input on the VG-99.  Interesting results.  A patch I use for acoustic guitar was a great patch for electric bass too.

Some ambient patches sound really interesting - I need to try the GK3 on this even though it's not the GK3 for bass - it should still fit (sort of).
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

QuoteWell I tried my six string bass through the quarter inch input on the VG-99.  Interesting results.

The VG-99's brickwall input filters are on the GK 13 Input only

pasha811

Elantric, Aliensporebomb,

Thanks for interesting posts. The GK3B Manual opened a new world to me. I didn't know about GK3B in detail, I saw one at a Roland Event years ago during a GR55 presentation mounted on a Fender Precision Bass. So since then I thought GK3B didn't have that special capability to be mounted on 4,5,6 string basses! Let me say that was cool! It also opens an idea of a future GK3 for 6 to 7 string guitars using the same clever layout and tech.
I have used my Cort Curbow Bass in the VG99 often, using the 1/4 inch Jack and having a set of multiFx ready for it, mainly Compressor, Chorus, Octaver, Defretter and Bass Cosm AMP (I like the vintage one). My bass is active with two EQ profiles. I have to be careful about the profile I use to avoid distortion but all in all it works fine with VG99 as a MultiFx and recorded material in Ableton Live is good, crisp and clean. For synth sounds I use my Bass into Zebrify as you can listen here  http://alonetone.com/pasha/playlists/hexagrams starting at 2:35 (track bass-a-nomics).

So I wait for Aliensporebomb experiments with his setup.
In the meanwhile thanks a lot for very useful, inspiring infos.

VGF it's the best place to go! <Love>



Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

billbax

Hi pasha811,

I tried a GK3B with a VG-88 some years back, and the results were pretty good.


pasha811

Quote from: billbax on October 29, 2016, 02:34:47 AM
Hi pasha811,

I tried a GK3B with a VG-88 some years back, and the results were pretty good.



Thanks it sounds good to me!
You had a GK3B though. Today it's very hard to find hence the questions of my friend...
I think the VG99 Filter blocks frequencies so even with a GK3B (that cannot be selected in the setup) you might run into troubles with COSM emulations (Filter Bass, GR300 and the like).. best is to use GP10 or Gr55 in Bass Mode.. or find a VB99 on ebay!

In any case, very good bass playing with a lot of grooooove! (and that's the most important thing  ;) )
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

#12
QuoteYou had a GK3B though. Today it's very hard to find

FWIW -External Roland GK-3B units remain in production and can be ordered from your local Roland dealer.
https://www.google.com/search?q=roland+gk3b&client=ms-opera-mini-iphone&channel=new&biw=414&bih=632&prmd=svin&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4xNP-pYDQAhXHrFQKHfkhBdsQ_AUIBygB



It's only the internal GK-3B units which are now out of production.

Quotebest is to use GP10 or Gr55 in Bass Mode.. or find a VB99 on ebay!

Actually that should state

"best  is to use Gr55 in Bass Mode.. or find a VB99 on ebay!

The Boss GP-10 does Not provide a "GK-3B compatible Bass mode"

pasha811

Quote from: Elantric on October 29, 2016, 07:19:30 AM
FWIW -External Roland GK-3B units remain in production and can be ordered from your local Roland dealer.
https://www.google.com/search?q=roland+gk3b&client=ms-opera-mini-iphone&channel=new&biw=414&bih=632&prmd=svin&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4xNP-pYDQAhXHrFQKHfkhBdsQ_AUIBygB



It's only the internal GK-3B units which are now out of production.

Actually that should state

"best  is to use Gr55 in Bass Mode.. or find a VB99 on ebay!

The Boss GP-10 does Not provide a "GK-3B compatible Bass mode"

Elantric, thanks for pointing out that GP10 mistake of mine..  :-[

Great informational thread! :-)
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

vanceg

I'm sorry I didnt' see this thread at the time:  I've got a 6 string bass equipped with a GK3B and one with a Graphtech Ghost system.  I've tested both extensively with the VG-99.  Basically, the VG-99 doesn't track pitch below 3 half steps below normal tuning on a guitar.  For example if the low E (6th) string is tuned down anywhere below C# below a GUITAR tuning, the VG-99's pitch tracking system won't make any sense of that note.  However, this only has any bearing on those features of the VG-99 which use the pitch tracking.  This would include Harmony pitch shifting, any of the Synth models, the Intelligent Ring Modulation mode... etc. 
So I've found that I just can't use those features when I'm running bass through a VG-99

Features that don't use the pitch tracking basically work just fine using bass as the input. I've gotten some great sounds out of the various GK guitar models, the effects and the COSM amps... I just stay away from most of the intelligent pitch shifting.

Elantric

QuoteIt's only the internal GK-3B units which are now out of production.

apparently that is an error


the GK-KIT-BG3  ("a.k.a": Bass GK-3B Internal KIT) remains in production

https://www.roland.com/us/products/gk-kit-bg3/

Beirne

I have a gr55 and a VB99 with 6string bass and gk3b pickup...works great.

WHY not put piccolo strings on the 6 string bass and use it in the vg99...bassically(haha) making a guitar tuned bass scale instrument. You will need extra light strings tuned tight. Cant use the normal pUps though.
ACTUALLY you could just put LIGHT strings on JUST the lower strings to get it in the guitar range, and keep the normal thinner bass strings on the higher strings. ANd use the modeling TUNING of individual strings to put ya back in BASS range.
I do that with my 6 string bass...I have it tuned EADGCF  but I have some presets to tune it down to a "standard" 6string bass of lowBEADGC
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www.facebook.com/intangiblesband

gumtown

Quote from: Elantric on March 06, 2017, 02:00:09 PM
apparently that is an error


the GK-KIT-BG3  ("a.k.a": Bass GK-3B Internal KIT) remains in production

https://www.roland.com/us/products/gk-kit-bg3/

That is good to know the kits are still in production..  :)
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/