GR-55 - What type of amp?

Started by 3dognate, February 08, 2011, 07:59:23 AM

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3dognate

I know several of you are using the Traynor K4 and I'm not really interested in keyboard amps.

I've got a Mackie TH12A Powered Speaker on the way. It's a new item they just released.. the TH15A has been really popluar for PA use, and the TH12A will probably do a better job with the Guitar stuff. (at least it'll get me through a gig or two if I have to make another choice.)

What other powered PA type wedges are you guys having good success with for your FRFR system? I'm probably looking at a $600 budget at the moment... If I end up not liking the Mackie... If I do like it I'm going to grab a second for a Stereo rig (800w guitar rig omg!)

But the price point on the Mackie is great and past experience with them has been really good.

Just wondering what others are using on stage with good success...
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

ddlooping

#1
Hello 3dognate :)

I've recently acquired a Traynor K4 but was previously using a Yamaha Stagepas 250M.
Very happy with the latter in terms of sound and flexibility (buit-in/removable mixer with external speaker output, line-out etc...) as well as size and weight.
However, it tended to randomly cut-out at high-ish levels and I wasn't able to find out why (defect, thermal protection...?). :/


Don't know if that helps much.  ;D
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

ZenSonic

#2
Have you checked out the Yamaha MRS series? Some like these as well.
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=22&id=338

3dognate

#3
agh... I wanted this thread to stay in the GR-55 discussion where people using are at...
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

paults

#4
I use a Bose L1 with a single subwoofer. I can hear it better than a combo or monitor, because it is tall, and has close to 180 degrees dispersion. They aren't cheap, but you don't need two of them to sound as full as a stereo rig. All that power makes the COSM amp models just as responsive as a regular amp. The subwoofer is mostly just for low end transients with guitar sounds - but, it really lets bass and synth sounds come through better than a wedge or combo would. Four inputs (including 2 XLR/quarter combo jacks)         

They also have a smaller Model at a lower price point, and one for a lot more than mine that includes a mixer with DSP effects.

ZenSonic

#5
Quote from: paults on February 08, 2011, 09:13:25 AM
I use a Bose L1 with a single subwoofer. I can hear it better than a combo or monitor, because it is tall, and has close to 180 degrees dispersion. They aren't cheap, but you don't need two of them to sound as full as a stereo rig. All that power makes the COSM amp models just as responsive as a regular amp. The subwoofer is mostly just for low end transients with guitar sounds - but, it really lets bass and synth sounds come through better than a wedge or combo would. Four inputs (including 2 XLR/quarter combo jacks)         

They also have a smaller Model at a lower price point, and one for a lot more than mine that includes a mixer with DSP effects.
The Bose L1 is a nice unit IMO.  One can really hear what is being played. I think there is something to be said however for the stereo separation one can achieve by putting a pair of monitors at opposite ends of a stage.

RicardoLove

Yes I was wondering about the traditional stereo image placement and how Bose claims to simulate that with their expensive units.  I have played it at guitar center and it does sound nice but I don't hear that true left/right sound that you associate with stereo sound. I like to play through the P.A anyway but when the drummer and bass player are loud I can't hear myself unless I am really up in the mix and I like to lay perfectly in the blend.  Musicians need to understand that you shine more with the band is blended correctly with dynamics...even if your blazing the solo's and chord progressions you sound silly if your to loud or can't be heard if the bass player thinks he is Bootsy or Larry Graham. The hardest think about monitoring is sounding great on stage to yourself while still having a great mix out in the house...that's an Artform and great sound Engineers for small gigs are rare even here in LA where they graduate 100 Engineers a month.
email: ricardolovemedia@gmail.com
demo web site: http://www.reverbnation.com/rlove
GR-55 demos http://www.soundcloud.com/ricardolove
For hire Music Producer/Remixer

paults

I agree that a wide stereo pair sounds great onstage, especially if you aren't running everything through the mains. We sidewash our onstage amps, so the majority of whats heard is through the main PA. It depends on the venue, but most of the time, the mains are run in mono (even in the large outdoor arenas). So, I run in mono, so I wan't have phase issues if/when the sound engineer secretly pans my L and R sends both to the center, like they do when our keyboardist asks for two channels ;)

3dognate

L1 is not what I'm personally after, though I agree it's a nice uint. I've got a buddy with the L1+Sub and he does great with it, but he's using it for the entire PA for his acoustic shows. We'd have to have a fleet of them to do what my band does. We always run everything through the mains... I'm only after personal stage monitoring... and Stereo doesn't do much for me. We run a mono mix anyway and Ill probably be running one of the channels out to the drummer's in ears only for click track from backing tracks on USB.

And forget side firing, the other guitarist on stage is half deaf in his left ear and has to be on the stage left to hear the rest of the band, his amp is far too loud to point straight at my head. He's all I'd hear all night.
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

musicman65

I just switched to a Motion Sound KP-500SN keyboard combo amp. Its a 500 watt stereo amp with 2 12's and 4 horns. It is basically a PA in a box and is very full range and transparent. Its angled like a V on the front so the L and R speakers are aimed away for better seperation.

Suggesting that guitarist run stereo falls on deaf ears all to often. The myth that stereo is not an enhancement for live bands is just that...a myth. Keyboard players know better. Stereo sampled PCM sounds are mangled by mono systems and now, as GR-55 users, its time we investigate and educate ourselves why stereo really helps.

I never pan any mono signals left or right but stereo sound sources get full left and right channels so effects sound rich and have depth. This has always been contriversial with alot of players, kind of like the torque vs horsepower debate amongst car enthusiast. Of course, the correct answers are stereo and horsepower. lol. :)

btw, I use IEMs with a full stereo mix onstage so I really don't need a big stereo amp but it does sound good to those standing at the front of the stage where they are out of the path of the mains.

To each their own. Whatever you do, DON'T use a guitar amp. Use something full range with a flat response. Plug a MP3 player into it and if it sounds funny (like guitar and many kb amps do) keep looking.

Good luck!

musicman65


kenact

I'm using the stereo Line In jacks on a Behringer ACX900.  I can use it by itself for small venues, or use as a monitor and run the Balanced Stereo Line Out to a PA for larger venues.
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dnedwek

What direct boxes to those of you who feed the front-of-house PA prefer?
I've got an old mono Whirlwind Director (passive) that I've used, but with the soon-to-ship GR-55 I want to start shipping stereo from the stage.

musicman65

I use  use a stereo (dual channel) passive DI. I bought it off eBay for $40. I think its made by OSP. My stereo amp has XLR outs but no ground lift so I get hum from ground loops if the sound board is not on the same electrical circuit as the amp and GR/VG...so I use the DI instead.

The stereo DI has ground lifts, 1/4" input, and a pass-through 1/4" jack for each channel. I run my amp off the pass-through jacks and DI XLRs go to the PA.

musicman65

Elantric

I recommend the Radial Pro D2 Stereo passive DI box for use with the GR-55


http://www.radialeng.com/di-prodi-prod2.htm

germanicus

Ive had good success with a Traynor K4. No drop outs/cut offs.

I think stereo is not a big deal live. The audience isnt going to hear/differentiate it from a single unit setup. Maybe if you are splitting the signal out to Pa enclosures flanking either side of the stage.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

3dognate

I've worked with some pretty large sound companies... I know of none that pan hard left and right for stereo separation. It (stereo mix) might work well for fixed installations for theatre with a seated audience... but large and small venues with people seated far left and right of the PA typically get the same thing left and right, that way nobody listening misses anything.  We're not doing anything that uses ping-pong delays or panning... or even rotary speaker sim I'm pretty sure we're not losing anything by running a mono mix. Even though it's just a twist of a knob to do so. The only panning we do is to help balance out my and the other guitar player's stage volume against the mains in the smaller places. (I think even the iPod is panned center on both channels for the break music.)  8)
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

Brent Flash

I am not wanting to stir anything up but...there are plenty of top sound companies bringing LCR and more to audiences all over the world just like they do in movie theaters with surround sound.

Time alignment and stereo imaging are great tools for the FOH mixer today. The top guys do take advantage of these tools and if a stereo signal is provided from keys or guitars or tracks a good FOH guy can (and will) take full advantage of it.

Just saying.

3dognate

Quote from: Brent Flash on February 09, 2011, 02:22:10 PM
I am not wanting to stir anything up but...there are plenty of top sound companies bringing LCR and more to audiences all over the world just like they do in movie theaters with surround sound.

Time alignment and stereo imaging are great tools for the FOH mixer today. The top guys do take advantage of these tools and if a stereo signal is provided from keys or guitars or tracks a good FOH guy can (and will) take full advantage of it.

Just saying.

I'm sure all that is true. I wish I was in a group that pulled premium bux and large crowd that demanded that kind of sound. In my situation with the venues and my own band, Stereo doesn't buy me much. I do do stereo to it's fullest when doing recording or PA for seated events. But bars, clubs and weddings not so much...  Especially when we don't draw enough funds to hire sound  out and we run it from our own PA and our drummer mixes from stage... (Becoming very common for us during the recession... bars are not paying well right now here in the mid-west.)
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life

Vic1iful

"I am not wanting to stir anything up but...there are plenty of top sound companies bringing LCR and more to audiences all"

What is LCR? TIA

Brent Flash

Quote from: Vic1iful on February 10, 2011, 12:09:32 PM
"I am not wanting to stir anything up but...there are plenty of top sound companies bringing LCR and more to audiences all"

What is LCR? TIA
Left/Center/Right
Most of your top FOH (Front Of House) boards have this output format with the option of what percentage goes to left & right and what percentage goes to center. One popular method is to send more vocals to the center line array than the left/right line array. And conversely more instruments to the left/right than the center.

musicman65

I've run true stereo for years and things like stereo chorus and delays sound huge. The VG-99 is desgned as a stereo device and now the GR-55, with its stereo PCM sounds are amazing. Anyone in front of both mains WILL benefit.

Take a little boom box with 8" seperation between built in speakers and you can hear the spatial difference between mono and stereo even when several feet away or off center. This is because our brains use the DIFFERENCE in TIMING of the sounds arrival to our ears moreso than volume to determine percieved location in the stereo image. This means a sound can be the same volume from L and R but sound more left if there is a delay on the R signal so L arrives first. People sitting on the extreme R side still hear everything at proper mix levels except perhaps the delay.

All vocal effects, guitars, and synths we use are run in true stereo. The LR outs are panned hard left/right at the board but none of the sounds are panned. Only stereo effects and synths but I really think the audience benefits from it....and its really no more complex than mono.

musicman65


DML

With my GT-8 I'm using for my own live monitoring two Behringer B210D's. Very compact and light weight but they sound huge, lots of bottom end. And of course rather cheap (€ 160,- a piece)!! Next week I'm gonna buy a GR-55 and think the Behry's will do the trick again.
Boss GT-1000core, Gibson Explorer 2018, Höfner travel guitar, 4x Framus Renegade Pro, Framus Panthera, Framus Panthera Custom 7, G&L Asat, Rocktron/Egnater Velocity Valve, 2x Mesa Thiele EVM12L, 2x Mesa Thiele EVM12L Road Ready, Voes MX12 midi controller, Ovation 2078TX-5 Elite, PJB Cub II - AG150.

cincy_cosmo

Quote from: 3dognate on February 09, 2011, 02:11:35 PM
I've worked with some pretty large sound companies... I know of none that pan hard left and right for stereo separation. It (stereo mix) might work well for fixed installations for theatre with a seated audience... but large and small venues with people seated far left and right of the PA typically get the same thing left and right, that way nobody listening misses anything.  We're not doing anything that uses ping-pong delays or panning... or even rotary speaker sim I'm pretty sure we're not losing anything by running a mono mix. Even though it's just a twist of a knob to do so. The only panning we do is to help balance out my and the other guitar player's stage volume against the mains in the smaller places. (I think even the iPod is panned center on both channels for the break music.)  8)
Long ago when I bought my first modeling technology (A Johnson Milennium combo amp) I was buzzing the rather grizzled sales guy at the mom and pa music store and asked him about how to plug the Millenium into the house with it's stereo XLR outs.   "FORGET STEREO!" he raged, "You cannot use stereo in live situations."   He went on and explained to me that in the best situations, the audience cannot hear stereo and in the worst, it makes the sound guys life miserable.  The guy was right.  I rarely record stereo outs and never play live that way.  In recording, I use stereo (panning)  in the final mix to seperate instruments and give the recording a feeling of space...that's about it.

Jimmyward

Quote from: DML on February 10, 2011, 11:07:07 PM
With my GT-8 I'm using for my own live monitoring two Behringer B210D's. Very compact and light weight but they sound huge, lots of bottom end. And of course rather cheap (€ 160,- a piece)!! Next week I'm gonna buy a GR-55 and think the Behry's will do the trick again.

Just ordered one Behringer B212D, to go with the GR-55,light weight and 550 watts. I want to see how the mix come out mono before i invest in another.
Wife is gonna have a duck when she finds out about this. :-*

3dognate

Quote from: Jimmyward on February 14, 2011, 01:14:29 PM

Just ordered one Behringer B212D, to go with the GR-55,light weight and 550 watts. I want to see how the mix come out mono before i invest in another.
Wife is gonna have a duck when she finds out about this. :-*

Funny.. the Mackie that I was originally ordering is not shipping until after the 25th and I need a monitor before then to tweak tones for a show on the 26th and was planning to switch my order tomorrow to a pair of B212Ds myself. Was going to do it this afternoon but the guy I buy gear from was out of the office today. But still plan to do it tomorrow...

I ran through an old Soundcraft 12" powered monitor that we had and it sounded ok but was way underpowered. And then Used the GR55 at rehearsal through a pair of Yamaha 15" monitors with a Crown amp. And that sounded really good. The 12" Behringers should handle all the low end I'm going to throw at it with ease, I've heard them used for DJ'ing and for what they are they are great for their price point. These aren't for the FOH... and should be more then good enough to push the 6' from the floor to my ears at a show.
>>> http://www.tddRocks.com <<<

My live rig consists of:
-Noel Custom Guitars both GK and Ghost Equipped
-Digitech GSP1101 + Control2
-Roland GR-55 Guitar Synth
-EV ELX112P FRFR monitors
-Gator Cases
-Miller High-Life