GK-3 - Mounting on a Les Paul

Started by Fusion, September 11, 2015, 04:30:32 PM

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Fusion

Any reports of the bracket pads or rubber spacer for the carve top messing with the guitars finish???
I just got a new LP and am pondering installing the GK-3 the bridge bracket is a very nice feature but a little concerned with the rubber carve top spacer pad and the pads on the control assembly attacking the Nitro-Cellulose finish which as one should be aware even guitar hangers and the rubber on some stands can harm the finish permanently! Use a non reactive cloth piece??????
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

Elantric

#1
This is why you need a "stunt double" guitar for your GK-3 ( Burny, Epi Elitist, etc) - unless you want to instantly devalue your genuine Gibson by drilling holes & marring nitro paint, finding a new case that will accommodate your LP with GK-3, etc



Or read my "zero holes" GK-3 Les Paul Mounting Bracket below
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16137.msg115385#msg115385

Fusion

Thanks for the info.
The bridge height is easily corrected by lowering the bridge screws the thickness of the mounting plate. And I wish I knew if the pads or spacer for the carve top really attacked the finish and/if one can use a small cut cloth against the contact points to preserve.

Other than that puzzle I see no devalue to the instrument. I do not have a super expensive LP but I treasure it more so than any guitar I have owned or built.

I am at a real dilemma whether to add a GK-3 on it or just leave it a std instrument and just use my others for a synth control. I run two separate rigs but I sure love having those string and keyboard tones blend with my sound. Sure is a hard decision. Up side is I can get a great LP sound on my GR-55 using the COSM but not being able to use the PCM stuff with the LP is a bummer. Especially I've been working on a cool version of Zeppelin's "In the Light" with the strings and clav tones.

But that LP, what guitar to play, freaking love it, Just so unsure of adding the GK-3.
Seems if you pay attention to the set up params I cannot see why the bridge bracket would effect the sound as it becomes a part of the bridge mass. I have done some measuring on the height to get it really close to optimal gauge spacing. Not sure why the bridge assembly sitting on the bracket plate and the screw pins would effect the sound. Height is just compensation and "pleck" adjust which I am very versed in doing.

I know I can get the params and tracking in order but just not sure of the finish issues. I think the thing is I just got it and it is so new and my first real carved top LP and I just love the thing. Maybe after I have had it for some time I might find it easier to modify. Guess I just have to train myself to use the std guitar and switch to a synth controller for different stuff. At least until I get more brave.
I've been a Strat guy all my years of playing and I always wanted an LP but the price is crazy. Finally was able to afford the lower cost model and I am just loving it. Sure as hell not as easy to play and not used to the neck much less the upper access is very limiting but still, Les Paul, what a guitar!!!
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

vtgearhead

I'll second the stunt-double approach as a general solution.  Made the mistake of sticking the GK-3 on my PRS Custom 24 and it took heroics to get the tape residue off and buff finish back to normal.  Second time around I sacrificed a $300 PRS Soapbar II SE and had threaded inserts put into the guitar by a luthier.  Looks great and I can sleep nights over drilling holes in a a cheap, mass-production instrument.  It travels in a gig-bag, so no more issue with case clearance.

Next up:  Replace the volume and tone pots with dual-gang parts and install a MIDI CPU to remotely control instrument volume and tone on GP-10 and/or Antares ATG-1.  The MIDI CPU arrived last week and looks perfect for the job.

Elantric

#4
On my '73 LP I fabricated a metal plate for mounting the GK-3
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16137.msg115385#msg115385
see below

I don't recommend that junk Roland plastic GK-3 LP Mount , that Will kill your guitar tone




whippinpost91850

I'm getting ready to do a Gk internal install on my "72 20th anniversary Lefty LP custom. Back in the 70's no one would have guessed the mediocre Gibsons and Fenders of the era, would ever be considered more then a used guitar. Boy were we wrong. ???

I'll have pictures when I'm done. The holes are already there for GK switches, As coil taps and phase switches were common place mods, back then

Fusion

#6
As with all problems I encounter I search out all relative possible information sources and compile the info. Due to my tech background I also do my best to educate myself on the problem at hand designing and evaluating the various issues and problems. I should offer that all guitar GK installs are different and each case may offer up its own share of custom issues. I just got a new Les Paul and I have been pondering and prepping the issues for a GK-3 which I do not take lightly and I warn any new user to not pay much attention to the dreadful install videos that make this process seem silly easy. It is not. The accurate install and complete setting params of the GK-3 are system critical to the tracking and use of the GR and other units. Also bare in mind one does not "windmill" a piano tone or try to play with Ingwie speed a string patch and complain of "tracking", that is if you will forgive the observation, completely stupid, and not a fault of the unit.

Being somewhat of my own guitar tech and having done work for others for decades. Seems to me if you are inventive one can correct various issues.
First off I agree completely, I am not using sticky tape on any of my guitars.
I have done that in the past and was able to remove it and restore the luster but that is highly subjective and dependent upon the finish itself.
If you have any of the Nitro-Cellulose finishes inherent in most Gibson's, almost anything attacks the finish including all sorts of wall hangers and stand rubber cushions. Even Gibson recommends using cloth against the finish. "Safest place for your Gibson, is in it's case".
That being said, yes there is an issue with many form fit Gibson LP cases not providing room for the extended height of the GK controller block. Solutions are try and remove any material above that area in the case, if possible or of course find yourself an extended internal volume case. The more modern LP cases are engineered to withstand a 15ft drop and protect the guitar but this is a result of tightly forming and holding the guitar in place. So adding the mass of the GK effects that purpose.

Proper install of a GK-3 is not easy, 1,2,3, as some terrible videos would have users presume. It requires a relative amount of work and thinking for each guitar as to "how can I make this more accurate and stronger". With every guitar is the question of how will you mount it either by screw/spring, bracket, or sticky tape. We are lucky that the new GK-3 assemblies come with the very cool LP bridge bracket and the now cushioned control bracket clamp, attaching to the strap pin design. Highly suggested to get the newer design avoiding having to screw or sticky tape the controller to the guitar body. I will also be bold enough to say that most of the "instruction" videos I have seen on the web for installing a GK-3 are useful for counting the various problems and issues that one will have one soon complaining about the "tracking". Install critical and param setup critical. Also be aware the sensitivity levels and params change with the degrade of strings, maybe set yourself up more than one param setup for this.
Every guitar poses its own issues on install and each must determine if they want to do it. As for my final decision on my Les Paul and decided not to try and install the GK-3 as I just love the guitar too much to deal with it. I agree most certainly you can get a much lowered priced Epiphone model and do what you will without fear. That will probably be my resolve in time. I already have two GK-3 installs so I am not hurting for a guitar driver.


if you have little or no tech savvy you should perhaps find someone who can install for you but do be aware a lot of guitar store "techs" are at best hacks themselves and you do not want them learning on your guitar.

Issues of the Hex pickup being unsupported in the middle and causing deformity are quite real and a matter of engineering.
What I do is first match the curve of the neck fretboard radius to the curve of the hex pickup by adjusting the center adjust set screw for this purpose. Pretty much essential you get this to match else you cannot get the proper string to hex height. Next after determining the height adjust I use springs (if drilled) or the plastic washer which can be squeezed and adjusted. I use the double sided spacers and or thin tape strips to level out the mid support area to the body, or bracket holder. If the pickup is to meet the guitar body, I do not remove the bottom layer of sticky to the bottom of the hex to the body and leave that protected and unsticky, merely using the support to give strength to the hex itself, that solves the warping thing if it is prone to happen. I have not encountered it on mine but every guitar is a different project. From the onset due to my engineering background I planned to build up the pickup on the bottom and also another point I think you need to have a insulator piece on the bottom to avoid metal contact to the hex from the bracket and so on. When I was prepping to install on my LP I found the using a thin piece of the tape without removing the tape on the side to the metal bracket provided the correct height for my bridge without sticking it to the bracket just the underside of the hex. I also surmised if was to install the controller GK bracket using the modern version strap pin clamp I would cut small pieces of polishing cloth and place them on the contact points to the finish, including the bottom of the rubber spacer piece for the carved top body gap to the bracket. The rubber spacer is needed and will attack the finish from my discoveries, one of the gloriously viewed "easy to do" LP GK-3 installs does not even mention the spacer pad for Gibson carved tops which give the controller bracket solid contact to the body.

That all being said, you sort of have to come to your own conclusions if you want to use your guitar for a GK-3 install and how you will deal with the issues that will arise on your own instrument. Certainly if you can afford a factory hex pickup install then that can be a marvelous thing. Using a Epiphone Gibson version certainly rather ideal as well. I ended up screw mounting two of my present GK-3 guitars one on a custom Strat approaching 10 years old but still a cherry. Two small holes for the GK-3 were not as painful as I had imagined. My other was a kit guitar I built with many upgraded parts. Screw holes on that one went into the gold Seymour Duncan pickguard assembly which was also not as painful as I imagined. As for my new Les Paul, while not the uber expensive ones, still a much prized and cherry virgin which I cannot bare to mess with, just too new I suppose. So my resolve is probably get an EPI later on and add a GK-3 or perhaps go with a Godin or even a nice Carvin synth ready guitar.

As a final comment on the marvelous tones of the Les Paul for my use on my guitars, I run separate cables from my guitar and the GK-3 as this gives me the best of both worlds without losing the sound of the LP or my other guitars through the GK "normal" pickup thing with it's lack of great sound or processing for the guitar itself. I found the GK normal out wanting as many have, I am sure you can do something to it post GR but for me I do not use the GR as my core branch unit, if you do then anything can be tweaked and something added on to correct the problem.
Roland would have done a great service providing some effect loop potential and offering a more direct guitar out option that does not mess with the guitar's voice or the amp in. (But alas Roland has passed the GR torch onto to Boss and we have already seen the newer offerings of the std cable processing. Novel in their own regard but I do not expect the hex units to fade into the night as they have benefits that cannot be matched.
As it is I just use separate cables and have my guitars pedalboard w the added synth abilities running through their own full range rig. Too complicated for some but for me I cannot give up the great drives and pedals I have come to for the sake of a "normal" guitar pickup or at best an effect loop add on which still ultimately comes out the back of the GR. As usual one does what they like and what works for them, there is no one way when it comes to the infinite ranges of the guitar synth.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

Elantric

#7
"zero holes" GK-3 Les Paul Mounting Bracket
This is steel bracket i fabricated 10 years ago to mount a GK-3 PU on a my 1973 Les Paul

This era LP came stock with an ABR-1 Bridge and threaded studs that are screwed into the guitar using a Threaded hole in the maple top.

I use Brass Pan head screw the same size and thread pitch of the original threaded studs - ( resulting in no mods to the 1973 LP Wood top )


Top View


Left Side View





Right Side View - observe the Nut under the GK Mount plate under the Bridge

I use Brass Pan head screw the same size and thread pitch of the original Gibson ABR-1 threaded studs to "trap the sandwich" that is

Bottom to top

1 ) Hex nut

2 ) Steel GK Mount Plate

3 ) Stock 1973 Gibson knurled  Bridge Height adjuster

4 )1980 Nashvile Bridge

5 ) Brass Pan head Screw  - the same size and thread pitch of the original 1973 threaded ABR-1 stud   

This  Bridge setup is  "solid as a rock" - zero wobbles when string are removed - and sustains much better than the Nashville adjustable Bridge mount cups and height adjuster - Those Nashville parts were only designed to aid  / speed up the manufacturing assembly line   - and not aid the tone IMHO.

I'll drill a small hole in the side of the Bridge PU Mounting ring to feed the Gk-3 PU cable to the control cavity for an internal GK Kit to a new steel triangle LP control plate cover where i'll mount the GK 13 pin female jack facing the rear ( like TSR Proix does for GK Internal installation in Japan )

Net result is No holes in the wood - and totally reversible to stock     

This guitar has been ridden hard and put away wet - I'm original owner  - (damn its 33 years old today)

1976


Like most LP's any "red" in the original finish has faded over time - below is same guitar today.

2014

Elantric

#8
I would disassemble the bridge and re-orient the saddles to the intonation adjustment screws are facing the tailpiece - not the bridge PU.

For a good GK-3 installation - the Tune-o-matic bridge needs to be oriented like this (Rust no extra charge)

Elantric

#9
Despite the grime and oxidation - My 1973 Les Paul  is perfectly intonated with a Strobe Tuner

QuoteThe graphtech bridge picture was just to illustrate the deeper slots on wound strings and the problems this creates with spacing to the GK pickup.

I hate bridge saddle slots cut that deep - it yields major tuning problems 

Fusion

I just installed another GK-3 on my Les Paul and things went rather well. I love the non evasive bracket that is so easy to undo. So weird to get used to the LP being held together by tension. The bracket could have fit better on my bridge studs but does OK after the string tension is applied to hold things solid.

I put a small piece of cloth on the rubber spacer which balances out the carve top gap just to make sure the rubber does not react w my finish.
Just got it done so have not had a chance to run it through the paces and get the sensitivity set up.
The distance from the hex to the saddles is very slight from 9 to 11 setting on 10 is the smallest, hope that is not a big deal. I am presuming it will not be.
I was just pondering the closer distance in another LP install thread and it would seem it might be a better tracking from less string vibration range, tighter signal variant and so on. Will run it through the paces tomorrow.

I have become obsessed with my new Les Paul and could not handle not having the synth ability with it.
Cannot wait to see how it does.
The Les Paul has changed my whole guitar scene. I am back using lighter 9-42 D'Addario in std. tuning after using 10s and Eb on my strats for ages.
Where has this guitar been all my life, this is the deal. I am going to have a hard time playing anything else from this point. My various Strat customs seem like light weight cheap toys (which they are all great guitars) compared to the weight and feel of this beast. I dig it so much, now to try out my Synth patches on it.
"Long ago in days of old when magic filled the air..."

Tony Raven

#11
http://www.shapeways.com/product/X6ABHAJM8/gk-3-low-profile-bridge-humbucker-pickup-ring?li=search-results-1&optionId=57538318&rc=SearchResults

http://www.shapeways.com/product/935FWV9XP/roland-gk-pickup-mount-quick-release-version?li=search-results-1&optionId=43362221&rc=SearchResults

I'll stick with poly -- sure, I'm a heathen, but I gotta have guitars that aren't afraid of a little rain... or sweat... or beer... or subzero temperatures. Besides, I've heard that the various plastics & glues used in the guitar case will take a year or more to "cook off" completely. Won't that degloss your finish...? :-\

Brion

Quote from: Fusion on September 11, 2015, 10:25:24 PM
Thanks for the info.
The bridge height is easily corrected by lowering the bridge screws the thickness of the mounting plate. And I wish I knew if the pads or spacer for the carve top really attacked the finish and/if one can use a small cut cloth against the contact points to preserve.

Other than that puzzle I see no devalue to the instrument. I do not have a super expensive LP but I treasure it more so than any guitar I have owned or built.

I am at a real dilemma whether to add a GK-3 on it or just leave it a std instrument and just use my others for a synth control. I run two separate rigs but I sure love having those string and keyboard tones blend with my sound. Sure is a hard decision. Up side is I can get a great LP sound on my GR-55 using the COSM but not being able to use the PCM stuff with the LP is a bummer. Especially I've been working on a cool version of Zeppelin's "In the Light" with the strings and clav tones.

But that LP, what guitar to play, freaking love it, Just so unsure of adding the GK-3.
Seems if you pay attention to the set up params I cannot see why the bridge bracket would effect the sound as it becomes a part of the bridge mass. I have done some measuring on the height to get it really close to optimal gauge spacing. Not sure why the bridge assembly sitting on the bracket plate and the screw pins would effect the sound. Height is just compensation and "pleck" adjust which I am very versed in doing.

I know I can get the params and tracking in order but just not sure of the finish issues. I think the thing is I just got it and it is so new and my first real carved top LP and I just love the thing. Maybe after I have had it for some time I might find it easier to modify. Guess I just have to train myself to use the std guitar and switch to a synth controller for different stuff. At least until I get more brave.
I've been a Strat guy all my years of playing and I always wanted an LP but the price is crazy. Finally was able to afford the lower cost model and I am just loving it. Sure as hell not as easy to play and not used to the neck much less the upper access is very limiting but still, Les Paul, what a guitar!!!

The value of a guitar has very little to do with what you can sell it for after you have modified it.  If you love the guitar that much, you will have it for as long as you play; then you die.  Who cares what the $$$ value is?!?  Mount the pickup on your precious LP!!!! ...like I've done with my custom, hand-made Tom C. Holmes, my PRS Custom 24, My Gibson ES-335, and every other guitar I love to play!!  (Playing guitar for just over 57 years...)
You will absolutely LOVE what you can do with your favorite guitar(s)!!! 
Making music ain't about the resale value!