Conceptual Design Differences Between RC-300 and EHX 45000

Started by Rhcole, April 05, 2014, 10:18:47 AM

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Rhcole

All,

Not that anyone besides myself has been intrigued by my prior posts about loopers for ambient music and the EHX 45000... but,
I have been researching hard and brought home the 45000 yesterday. As a result I had a "lightbulb moment" about the fundamental differences between the two leaders (well, at least the most expensive) in looping and thought I would share my initial insights with you.

The RC-300 (and also many other loopers such as the Boomerang III) are optimized for a spontaneous, in-the-moment live experience and experimentation. You can sync or de-sync loops within a given "phrase memory" (RC-300), add effects, fade in and out, add rhythm, and much more. The RC-300 gives you three of those to play with all at once. THERE ARE REWARDS, AND THERE IS A TRADEOFF. The rewards are the tremendous power you have in real time to alter, blend, and play with the components of the phrase memory. For ambient music, the ability to change the phase relationships between loops by synching/desynching, overdubbing, fading, etc. are tremendous.

THE TRADEOFF is that you are locked within the universe of that individual phrase memory until you use switches to go to a new phrase memory. This is not an instantaneous process, so in a live performance a different phrase memory would be either a different "song", or you would play live over the switching time between phrase memories. Just like different instruments pull differing ideas out of the player (a bass is not a 12 string), most musicians would choose not to switch up and down between phrase memories in a single song because the RC-300 is not deft at that. So, loops on the RC-300 would tend to either have the characteristics of a drone (even if rhythmic), or they would have a simple, fixed structure such as verse-bridge-chorus. On the RC-300 you can save your phrase memories to a computer and preload them for a show, but the likelihood is that you will treat each phrase memory as an individual song.

The EHX 45000 is a very different beast. It follows the architecture of a mutlitrack recorder, and therefore works quite a bit differently in a live context. THERE ARE REWARDS AND THERE ARE TRADEOFFS. The 45k rewards you for planning your show in advance of live performance. To the 45k, each "loop" is the equivalent of one of the three loops in a single phrase memory of the RC-300. However, the loops within the 45k are individually very versatile- you can have up to 4 tracks per loop, mix them down in stereo, have two stereo loops going together at the same time. BUT HERE'S THE CRITICAL DIFFERENCE. Within the loop the relationship of the tracks to each other is fixed, because they are part of the same loop. So, if you record bass on one track and guitar on another, they are frozen together just like they would be on a tape recorder. Exceptions: EHX gives you the ability to vary the pitch and levels of individual tracks, which can produce interesting and weird results.

So, in the EHX, the tracks within a loop can be overdubbed live, but they don't have multi-effects, fades, etc. because the 45K's architecture is that of a multitrack recorder and therefore is simply like playing and recording on a tape recorder live. You can get some effects by varying the levels of different tracks, changing pitch etc., but it's no RC-300 for live performance.

But wait, here's the BEST PART of this. Using the foot pedal, you can rapidly choose different loops on the fly. THIS IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE compared to other loopers. So while each loop lacks the individual performance power live of other loopers in relationship to one another, you can break outside of the containing box and load different loops at different tempos, key signatures, and rhythms all within a single song. You are limited to having a loop finish before playing the next one you have ready to go, so there is no overlapping or desynching like you can do with the three loops in the RC-300. But the 45k rewards you more for composing music and setting up the unit in advance of your live show.

So the instant differences to consider: RC-300 vast live flexibility within a contained three loop universe;
EHX 45000: Vast compositional flexibility that can be performed on the fly live with less flexible live controls.

Very interesting different concepts, don't you think?

dotmarker

Great presentation! Many thanks for articulating the differences in terms of use-case. Ideally owning both units is the way to go, bank balance permitting, seems like. As an example, say I want to loop a song structure in which a codetta or whatever throws in a bar of 2 or 3 in a 4/4, or an extra one or two bars of 4/4. You could probably pull this off with the 45K right, assuming you don't take a latency hit at the loop switch?

Hopkins

Am I right in understanding that the benefit of the 45k is the facility to pre-load it with far more audio tracks (than other loopers) which you can then quickly trigger live?  If so, I agree that this is out of line with the design philosophy of most loopers.

I must admit, for me the attraction of loopers is the ability to create the entire audioscape live with fewer musicians than would otherwise be necessary; specifically - only me!  I am also using it to try to create music which does not sound like typical loop based music, however I am finding that it becomes a very complex task.  As such, I am wondering whether I should abandon this idea and, instead, play music "solo" but instead use a device to trigger pre-recorded accompaniments.  Perhaps the 45k is just the device I need!

Elantric

QuoteAm I right in understanding that the benefit of the 45k is the facility to pre-load it with far more audio tracks (than other loopers) which you can then quickly trigger live?

Today there are lots of competing looper products which allow you to trigger prestored audio loops. Many support an SD Card for loop storage, and some are considered more of an "MPC" type device.

Possible Devices which allow you to trigger prestored audio loops:

Akai MPX8

http://www.akaipro.com/product/mpx8   

JamMan SoloXT

http://digitech.com/en-US/products/jamman-solo-xt
http://looperpedalreviews.com/digitech-jamman-solo-xt-looper-review/


JamMan Stereo
http://digitech.com/en-US/products/jamman-stereo

Pigtronix Infinity Looper

http://www.pigtronix.com/products/infinity-looper/
http://looperpedalreviews.com/pigtronix-infinity-looper/


Boss RC-505

http://looperpedalreviews.com/boss-rc-505-loop-station-review/


EHX 45000

http://looperpedalreviews.com/electro-harmonix-45000-review/

http://looperpedalreviews.com/

Hopkins

And surely the RC-300 too :D.  Nice to see that the Pigtronix was finally released.

Elantric

My 2 cents - in my travels i see 80% of "solo" acts all rely on a Line6 DL-4, that allows sound-on-sound overdubs, to build up tracks

http://line6.com/dl4/


The Audience appreciates watching you build up your "loop" - as you play it live - one layer at a time.

By contrast if you start your set playing with your 1st song playing solo guitar to an overproduced pre-recorded backing track, the crowd tends to loose interest fast, assuming you simply purchased a commercial "Music minus one" backing tracks, and it quickly  ends up too closely resembling Karaoke night, and not a live performance.

Also remember its show business  - if you are constantly fumbling around with the hardware mid song,  - and not delivering your best performance straight to the crowd,   it tends to be a boring performance irregardless of the music being output.

Ive seen several open microphone music showcase shows at local venues, where the dude with the looper and lots of spagetti floor pedals gets upstaged by a superb solo Acoustic Guitarist  with nothing but one guitar and 10 fingers, and excellent showmanship performing at his best to the crowd 


GovernorSilver

Quote from: Elantric on June 23, 2014, 11:50:53 AM
My 2 cents - in my travels i see 80% of "solo" acts all rely on a Line6 DL-4, that allows sound-on-sound overdubs, to build up tracks

http://line6.com/dl4/


The Audience appreciates watching you build up your "loop" - as you play it live - one layer at a time.

That's why I abandoned that route for my own music.  Too many other people doing it.  As a violist, I'd quickly be compared to Kishi Bashi, the looping violinist - who uses a DL4. 

Reggie Watts uses a DL4 + EHX 2880 combo.  I love what he does, but he brings a unique force of personality plus the comedic element to his shows.

Quote from: Elantric on June 23, 2014, 11:50:53 AM
By contrast if you start your set playing with your 1st song playing solo guitar to an overproduced pre-recorded backing track, the crowd tends to loose interest fast, assuming you simply purchased a commercial "Music minus one" backing tracks, and it quickly  ends up too closely resembling Karaoke night, and not a live performance.

Also remember its show business  - if you are constantly fumbling around with the hardware mid song,  - and not delivering your best performance straight to the crowd,   it tends to be a boring performance irregardless of the music being output.

Ive seen several open microphone music showcase shows at local venues, where the dude with the looper and lots of spagetti floor pedals gets upstaged by a superb solo Acoustic Guitarist  with nothing but one guitar and 10 fingers, and excellent showmanship performing at his best to the crowd

I've also observed this. 

I have some friends who are very accomplished musicians who use looping devices.   One plays cello, the other plays guitar.  They play much of their music as live as possible (no looping), and just use the loopers judiciously, instead of relying on them for entire songs.  I think they were inspired by Bill Frisell, who uses a looper to add a little something to his solo guitar sets, but he doesn't make a whole song out of the looper.  The looper just adds a bit of flavor.  Here's a good example:


Hopkins

Quote from: Elantric on June 23, 2014, 11:50:53 AMIve seen several open microphone music showcase shows at local venues, where the dude with the looper and lots of spagetti floor pedals gets upstaged by a superb solo Acoustic Guitarist  with nothing but one guitar and 10 fingers, and excellent showmanship performing at his best to the crowd
Perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind when planning any performance!