VG-99 - Freeze Loop 1.0 Ambient Noise

Started by feloniouspunk, July 23, 2008, 10:09:09 AM

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feloniouspunk

Here is a patch that started out as an attempt to get something close to the Moog guitar.  It is still in its early stages of development, but thought that I would pass it along to see what other people would do with it.  If you download and modify please re-up.  Also, lets keep the ideas flowing on how to best emulate the Moog guitar.  Thanks to Bill for his ideas and guidence. 

GUITARS

Cosm Guitars A and B are both Vari acoustics set up with Piezos.  Guitar A has the Poly SG and a natural Feedbacker (currently off) on Mod 1.  Guitar B has a natural Feedbacker (currently off) on Mod 1 and a Slow Gear (on) for Mod 2.  The Slow Gears for both A and B are set to the same rise time and sens.

D-BEAM
The D-beam is set up to freeze both Guitar A and B with a medium attack and release for a nice fade in and fade out.  This can be changed by pressing CONTROL ASSIGN and scrolling over to PAGE 2.  Press PITCH and PAGE 1 has controls for FREEZE A and PAGE 2 has controls for FREEZE B. Adjust to taste.

HOLD DELAY
The third and final fun-ity (patent pending) is the super-duper mini looper (patent also pending).  Pressing Control 1 will start the REC mode for the Hold delay for GUITAR A and B.  The hold delay has a maximum record time of 2.8 secs.  Pressing CONTROL 1 again will stop the REC mode and will go into PLAY mode.  If you dont press CONTROL 1 while in REC mode it will automatically go into PLAY mode after 2.8 secs.  CONTROL 2 will stop the whole wonderful mess and the loop will go bye-bye.  I don't think there is anyway to save the loop internally.  This feature was an attempt to get another uninterrupted sustain type thing happening but that hasn't quite happened yet.  Please let us know if your able to accomplish this by some other means. Ideally I would like to be able to hold two separate notes or chords independently and indefinitely.

There is no EQ or Amp models, but there is a bit of overall reverb in the MIXER section.

One last thing, as far as the D-beam technique goes I find myself swiping on and off every few seconds or so to briefly hold every other new note or chord. Ok, that's it.
Lots of Gear. :)

feloniouspunk

#1
I think actually in Guitar B the feedbacker is in OSC mode, but that actually works in a similar fashion as the freeze.  It helps if you have a foot switch to turn it on and off but you can do it manually.  The feedbacker in OSC mode has to be turned on after a note is hit.  And it will only feedback one note at a time, but it will go until you turn it off.  You also have two Vol. controls for the octave that the note is in and an octave higher.  It also helps to turn the Rate and Depth down.  So that's kinda cool, its another infinite sustain.  You can build chords to improvise over and then change them every 2 bars or so.  The only problem I see is that when you turn off the feedbacker it is kinda abrupt.  So, I think maybe assigning a volume pedal to guitar B might help fade out the feedback.  The options ate unlimited!   ;D ;D

I also made some minor changes to the d-beams attack vols and levels to make it smoother.  You should be able to make these changes easily but I will repost if needed.

Chris
Lots of Gear. :)

baranger1

Chris,
Its brilliant!
Its Fripp in Box.
Now thats new stuff.

Bill

Paresh

Why not control the freeze with the exp pedal as you play over the loop?
paresh

baranger1

If you have the pedal to do it that works great to.

martin

Hi Chris

Sorry, I wasn't aware of the fact that feloniouspunk and Chris Gaber are the same person. I must apologize :P. This patch sounds absolutely great but I'm afraid that it will require a lot of time to discover all the secrets. ;D But I'm still on vacation ;D

Thanxs for sharing.

Martin

feloniouspunk

Thanks Martin, Have fun with it and please let us know if you uncover anything cool by adding or changing things around. 

Paresh-  Do you mean turn the freeze on and off with a exp pedal instead of the D-beam?  If so, that is a great idea. I am going to try and set that up now.  I really need to get a FC-300 or a FCB 1010.  I feel like there are so many more possibilities that can only be unlocked with a foot controller. 
Lots of Gear. :)

Paresh

Yes. Patch editing is not my strong point but I just left the D beam assignment the same & assigned my EV-5 pedal to turn freeze on & off. That's the only pedal I have.
I find it hard to regulate the volume - the 2 parts are about the same volume & the lead playing doesn't stand out when I play over the loop ...
paresh

feloniouspunk

#8
Oh man, that really makes it so much easier to work the freeze function.  ;D  Great Idea.  The only exp pedal I have is an old ensoniq cvp-1 that I found by accident when looking for something else in my basement storage locker.

EXP ASSIGNMENT
(This is for a independent EXP pedal)

To assign the Exp pedal to activate/deactivate the D-beam control press CONTROL ASSIGN and goto PAGE 4.  Press EXP.  [F4] should be turned to D BEAM. [F5] should be FREEZE.  [F6] should be SW.  WRITE to save.  Easy Breezy. 

EDIT:  If you have more than one EXP pedal, I think it would help out dynamically if you assigned it to FREEZE vol.  So you would have control over both the FREEZE on/off and its volume.  Like Paresh was saying, I think it will give you better control over the dynamics of everything.
Lots of Gear. :)

feloniouspunk

I am going to put a patch together for anyone with a FC-300 who wants it.  I am not sure how I am going to do it yet, but I would like to do something like this.  CONTROL 1/D-BEAM would be Freeze on/off.  CONTROL 2 would be GUITAR B [FX] MOD 1 on/off (which is feedbacker in OSC mode).  CONTROL 3 and 4 would be Delay looper on/off.  EXP 1 would be the volume of the FREEZE and EXP 2 would be the volume of the FEEDBACKS.  The rest of the CONTROL buttons can be for whatever.  Maybe something in the ALT TUNE or some other effects.  Any ideas- Oh man, I just realized that if you have a FEEDBACKER in OSC mode for both GUITAR A and B, that gives you TWO separate sustains with 2 octaves each, as well as the FREEZE function.  Thats three infinite sustains.  That's just crazy talk.  So GUITAR A [FX] MOD 1 on/off would have to be worked in there. I think EXP 2 can control all the FEEDBACKER volumes.  Somebody will have to test this out on a FC-300 for me.
Lots of Gear. :)

baranger1

#10
Chris Gaber has posted a patch called Freeze Loop.
I think it can open up a entire new world to some of the guitar players here that have never heard of or experimented with Ambient guitar.
The VG-99 in a loop mode can create all sorts of strange ambient noise and soundscapes.
The guitar is perfect instrument to create this sort of music and effects.
I think it would be fun for guys to experiment and see what NEW sounds can be created using just the guitar and the VG-99.
Enclosed is a small loop I did with an altered version of the patch Chris posted here.
I  added a pitch shifter after the delay in channel B.
Its all VG-99 nothing else.
It took 2 minutes to do and shows quickly how very far away from guitar the 99 can get.
Synth guys would love to be able to do this!
Lets hear what you guys can do in VG Freeze Loop mode.
Bill

RushFan

Very cool and sci-fi sounding! Maybe I need to spend a little less time trying to recreate straight-forward guitar sounds and a little more time seeing what kind of new sounds I can make with the VG. Maybe.  :)

baranger1

#12
Hey why not try.

We have this great new pallet of sounds at our finger tips.
Only us end users will be the ones that will find the real new voices for the guitar.
I think we can break new ground for the instrument.
Even if we move we move the boundaries just a tiny little bit, how great would that be?
Have fun!
Bill

feloniouspunk

#13
As promised here is the FC-300 upgrade.   ;D

Somebody with a FC-300 will have to tell me if it works correctly or not.

Hopefully its:

EXP 1 is Freeze level for A and B

EXP 1 SW engages freeze if wanted.  You have to turn it on.

EXP 2 is Feedback level + (for high octave) for A and B. 

EXP 2 SW turns Feedback on/off if wanted.  This is how OSC feedback works.  You must turn it on after note is played.

CONTROL 1 engages freeze.

CONTROL 2 turns on feedback for A.

CONTROL 3 turns on Feedback for B.

CONTROL 4 turns on REC and PLAY for A and B Delay Hold

CONTROL 5 stops Delay Hold for A and B

Well, thats it.  I hope I did it correctly for you FC-300 owners.  Please let me know if I did it correctly, or what you would change. This is the same patch as above but with F1-F6 assignments and FC-300 assignments.

Chris



Lots of Gear. :)

RushFan

I have the FC-300 but not the optional Controls so I can't test beyond FC-300 CONTROL 1 and 2.
Exp 1 SW is not setup correctly - the first SW needs to be set to "On" for it to work. But then it's a duplicate of FC-300 CONTROL 1.
The Freeze assigned to FC-300 CONTROL 1 is set to Moment so you have to hold it down

feloniouspunk

Yeah, I left it off on purpose, because that function I thought would be better as CONTROL 1.  I don't really know what I am doing with the FC-300.  I thought I would give you the choice of where you wanted to turn the freeze on and off.  And it should be set to Latch not moment.  Oh well, a few changes need to be made to make it work right.  I am sure there are other things kinda screwy too.  :-[
Lots of Gear. :)

RushFan

#16
Working blind like that can't be easy. I highly recommend the FC-300 if you can possibly afford it. It just makes things so much easier to me.
In the meantime we are happy to verify your controls.  8)

RushFan

Okay you did a little bit more than just add a pitch shift...the original patch is acoustic guitar. I'm at a loss as to figure out how you made this sound, apart from it's one of the synth models.
But that's no surprise since I'm still discovering new sounds the VG can make with the right settings. I didn't even realize until I made that "Bees&Bombs" patch that you can create a delay that rises (or falls) in increments to a certain pitch (and cut off the original note if you want).

baranger1

Hi RF
No, all I added was a Pitch Shift in  the Mod section channel B.
I remember adding more Reverb and maybe changing it to a Hall setting.
I am not sure but I may have only used channel B.
The Cosm guitar was unchanged.
I did make big use of the Ribbon Controller.
I captured a loop of guitar noise and then with the left changed the pitch of the shifter.
The right hand worked the Ribbon Controller in filter mode.

Bill

Heavyzenjazz

#19
Hi Chris,
is there a way to extend the recording time of 2,8 sec?

Rainer
btw great patch!

Ok I just phoned with the Roland-Support. He told me the hardware abilities are maxed out for the delay hold and so a newer firmware wont bring more loop time.

feloniouspunk

Thanks Rainer, glad you like it.  It would have been nice to have a little more recording time.  :(  Did support say when the new firmware would be out?   ;D
Lots of Gear. :)

Heavyzenjazz

Quote from: feloniouspunk on July 31, 2008, 06:41:47 AM
Thanks Rainer, glad you like it.  It would have been nice to have a little more recording time.  :(  Did support say when the new firmware would be out?   ;D

The German Support refused to name any timeperiod and so I asked (knowing the big wish list of ours) what he knows of what is in the pipline... he said: nothing of what i know.

So lets hope he is the one without the plan. Maybe more people should phone and torture :-)

vanceg

Yes - this is the case: We heard from Roland when Steve and I met with them that the max hardware delay time in the VG-99 is 2.8s.  Shoot. 
It sure would make sense to me to have a looper built into this thing.

Vance


Quote from: Heavyzenjazz on July 30, 2008, 11:03:19 PM
Hi Chris,
is there a way to extend the recording time of 2,8 sec?

Rainer
btw great patch!

Ok I just phoned with the Roland-Support. He told me the hardware abilities are maxed out for the delay hold and so a newer firmware wont bring more loop time.

Elantric

#23
Roland will hold off any VG-99 updates until there is something else in the market place to be its rival. My antenna says summer NAMM 2009 at the earliest- as a response to the new Variax II due next year

feloniouspunk

Summer '09?  Sheesh, the world might have ended by then!   :o
Lots of Gear. :)