Boss SY-300 Pedal (Cast your Vote!)

Started by Elantric, April 09, 2015, 11:08:20 AM

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drewfx1

I'm a little bit skeptical of the bass tracking until I see it - on the one hand the bass video looks good, but in one of the other vids Alex sort of implied that tracking the lowest string on his 8-string guitar wasn't so hot.

whippinpost91850


Bill Ruppert

I am excited to hear this new box!
I have one on order.
But I am also not so sure it will be for me..
I have had every guitar synth there is, and the only thing that really has worked for what I do is the VG-99.

I have been on many sessions and when I present a sound from an OSC/PCM based unit, the producers always seem to say, that's cool but I will do that later.

On the other hand if I play a COSM Synth sound their ears peak up and they say what is that?
Put it in the track.
I have seen it over and over.
SO I wonder if the sound is less removed from the actual guitar signal no matter how fast it is, will I be able to use it?
Here is a track with one pass of COSM Strings, its just different than a synth and with the freeze the sustain is up to the user.
There is something different going on.
PLUS having alt tunings lets you spread your guitar over a football field.
Bill




Elantric

#303
Thanks for sharing Bill!'
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14460.0;attach=11584
** Breathtaking! **




Time will tell - but I see the Boss SY-300 like this: Liberated from the requirement for a properly setup GK Hex PU and 13 pin cable,the SY-300 will surely translate into greater access to new sonic exploration for a wider population of musicians: Guitars, Bass,  ( add a Mic Pre =Vocals), all genres  and far more attractive to many pros who have always shunned Hex PU technology.

I predict by this time next year, we will see the Boss SY-300 showing up occupying the corner of pro pedal boards in far more numbers than any GK 13 pin product we talk about here.  But its just the 1st example of this new technology. I think once folks see and hear the SY-300 in action by bands they enjoy - the sales numbers will translate into Roland / Boss's commitment for future generations with even higher performance.

Boss SY-300 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14600.msg103576#msg103576

But then again, I might be "all wrong" too ;)
. . . and dumber ideas than the SY-300 have made millions.

Headless68

Yep - the page just turned

See this as an extension to my VG-99 pallet for now but the future potential huge
Exciting times

Headless

Now_And_Then

Quote from: Elantric on April 19, 2015, 07:57:01 AM
the bass video below appears to track rather accurately and impressively to me.

Depending on how strictly you are using the word, it might not be tracking at all.

If he's running his bass through the fx blocks only, there's (almost certainly) no tracking involved. If he's running through the synth engine and has the original bass sound mixed in, with or without but especially with it going through the fx blocks, then any tracking problems or artifacts are hidden (and considering the specific patches which he's using are all factory presets, one can reasonably wonder if they became presets specifically because of their ability to hide the device's shortcomings - shades of the GR-55...).

On the other hand, if we are hearing only the output of the synth engine, then that's a very impressive demo, except for its complete lack of polyphony. 

If you listen to that bass demo, note that at 2.41 he does a little E-F-F# walkup on the E string. Quite clearly audible when he plays the F is the synth/fx'ed sound an eight note after the original bass note. Then again, this might not be a problem with a guitar, as pitch detection is typically more difficult the lower the pitch which needs to be detected - although we don't know how the synth engine input is analyzed. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that I heard some really bad latency on the Gundy Keller finger-sync demo...

My point is that we don't really know exactly how the device is being used in this or in any of the other official demos. I am being very cautious until I begin to hear non-official demos. I'd very much like this thing to do exactly what it says on the tin but I need to be convinced because I refuse to do Roland's work for them by convincing myself.

rcf1956

#306
Extremely difficult to judge latency from a Youtube video; audio/video sync problems abound and computer hardware also plays a part ...are plugins, drivers etc up to date.

Even assuming there are no video sync problems, there is still a problem with judging how the synth sounds are responding, unless you happen know the settings of the patch used. Was there an ever so slight filter attack and/or volume envelope applied to either or both of the filter and amp sections? If so notes might appear to be delayed as the filter and/or amp open up ...easy to make any keyboard synth appear to flub notes by playing fast with such settings. Using the synth layered with the instrument sound, as in the bass demo, you might reasonably choose a slower amp/filter attack so as not to mask the sound of the actual instrument; think pre-delay on a reverb unit which is sometimes used in a similar way.

We know that the SY-300 doesn't include any guitar or amp modelling, but what about the oscillators themselves? Are they digitally modelled and controlled, not via midi, but by the pitch of the string, or are they re-modelling the sound of the actual string vibration, as in the VG's Harmonic Restructure Modelling? If Boss are using an update of the latter technology, then there should be little or no latency. I'd like to know a little more about the oscillator tech...

MusicOverGear

IDK I really get the vibe from the Alex Hutchings vids that tracking is not a thing on this box. A few times in the vids he opens up his music force full throttle and just PLAYS and it really seems like the machine sings whatever he thinks. Seems to me it is the whole VG-99 vibe.

Also the pure square and saw patches don't sound pure at all - they sound buzzy, like the WAVE synth.

I don't know any of the technical stuff, but my best guess based on scant info I've seen is that the DSP isn't making a lot of •decisions• - it's just really good overdrive-filtering or whatever is like that but way beyond that in DSP - whatever the WAVE synth does... My guess is that it does that on the guitar signal as a whole. Either that or the demonstrators have developed some facility with pussyfooting around glitches, but that seems doubtful IMHO. From what I've seen in the vids...

IDK - we'll see soon enough.

Doesn't seem like soon enough LOL.

Elantric/Bill that string patch is delicious! Vangelis WISHES he had that sound! I see what you mean about the value of novelty... wait that's not the right word - exclusivity? - of a timbral palette that you can't really just dial up in Logic or buy as a sample pack. Very very cool.

So far I've resisted getting a VG-99 because it would dramatically alter my lifestyle, having to transport that giant desktop box. And I know I wouldn't have the willpower to leave it home. I'm hoping the SY-300 can ameliorate some of that tension.

Headless68

MOG - I did a gig on Saturday with the VG-99 at the side (ontop of its flight case as a stand ) with an EV5 and FS7 on the floor - that's it - it was liberating after having 1 or 2 full size V / GR boxes on the deck which has been the case for the last 10+ years for me.  (this setup gives me massive control - because everything is assignable - VG / guitar / floor pedals - thats 10 to play with physically + the virtual assigns )

I see the 'to be' state being the 99 setup as above + guitar out into the SY300, should still fit in one flight case for gigs.

Headless

Orren Merton

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on April 19, 2015, 09:04:53 PM
Here is a track with one pass of COSM Strings, its just different than a synth and with the freeze the sustain is up to the user.
There is something different going on.

Sounds great!

Orren

Orren Merton

Quote from: Now_And_Then on April 20, 2015, 03:45:51 AM
If he's running his bass through the fx blocks only, there's (almost certainly) no tracking involved.

YMMV, but to me the sound from about :48 - 1:04 sounds pretty brassy/synthy, I don't hear any blended bass or obvious FX. I'd wager that is the synth engine alone.

QuoteOn the other hand, if we are hearing only the output of the synth engine, then that's a very impressive demo, except for its complete lack of polyphony.

First of all, there isn't a complete lack of polyphony. From about 1:16 - 1:22 he is plucking two note chords. But here's the thing—even though he did demo some polyphony, considering this is a bass demo, I'd expect him to demo the kind of lines that a typical bass player would play, and for my second wager, I'll bet the vast majority of bass players don't spend the majority of their time playing complex strummed chords. (Hell, I play guitar, a far more polyphonic instrument, and I don't spend most of my time playing complex chords!)

QuoteMy point is that we don't really know exactly how the device is being used in this or in any of the other official demos.

And you know what? They don't know how YOU would choose to use a device like this (if you chose to use one) either. They don't know how I'd use it, either. Or Elantric. Or Bill. Or any of us. There's a lot of things they don't show. Personally, I'd love to see some "re-synthing" done in Logic Pro. I'd love to see it integrated with a high gain tube amp—I mean, take a clean synth sound, and run it through your highest gain channel until it sounds like an elephant being squashed by King Kong. I don't care if it sounds like a great brass section or Pat Metheny, I have samples of brass and I don't play Pat M style music.  So demos are by their very nature attempts to be as universally enticing as possible. And you know, I'm okay with that—give me a sense of the possibilities, and then I'll try my specific tests when I get my hands on one.

QuoteI am being very cautious until I begin to hear non-official demos.

Some would even say negative. ;) But it's cool. There's so much amazing stuff out there right now, it doesn't matter if this works for you or not, there's something out there that does, and that's awesome. This is a great time to be a musician!

Orren

thebrushwithin

#311
The re synthesis ability is truly exciting!!! At the end of April, I'll be upgrading my Omnisphere 1.5 to 2.0, and, as usual, Eric Persing & Co. Have really taken their software into un chartered territory. Sure wish he still was programming for Roland, but, then again, we wouldn't have this monster, if he hadn't started Spectrasonics.
https://www.spectrasonics.net/products/omnisphere-2/index.php

Vast New Synthesis Possibilities:
Audio Import - Use your own audio file as a soundsource in Omnisphere
Over 400 New DSP Waveforms for the Synth Oscillator - an increase of 100X
Wavetable Synthesis - Each Waveform is now a Morphing Wavetable
Powerful New Granular Synthesis algorithm
Deeper FM/Ring Mod capabilities for aggressive timbres
8 New Filter Types - New Power Filters, Vowel, Resonators
New Unison Drift models Analog Polysynth behavior
Expanded Modulation with new sources and many more targets
Polyphonic LFO and Modulation Envelope options
Soundsource Reversing
Now includes over 10,000 sounds!
More than 3,000 New patches and soundsources from acclaimed Spectrasonics Sound Design Team
New Omnisphere EDM library with cutting-edge, modern sounds
New Exclusive Soundsources from Diego Stocco's Custom Built Instruments
New category of Phrase-based Soundsources for granular synthesis
Hundreds of new Circuit Bent Soundsources
Many Innovative new Psychoacoustic Soundsources
New Melodic Cave Stalactites Soundsources
...and much, much more!
New Interface:
Redesigned Wider User Interface with many improvements
New Show Modulation pane opens modulation routings/sources on left side
New Mini-Browser available at all times
Larger Full Browser Design
Enhanced Browsing Experience:
Sound Match™ feature instantly locates any related sounds in the library
Sound Lock™ allows endless useful variations by locking sound aspects while you browse
Easy Sound/Project Sharing for collaborators and third party libraries
Greatly Improved sound organization system
Fast Progressive Loading allows rapid auditioning
Browse Patches by Mood
Expanded Genres
Browse by Oscillator type
Boolean search options
New Arpeggiator Features:
Note transposition for step seq-style patterns
Arp pattern lock while browsing
Speed Offset control allows slow down/speed up effects
New modulation capabilities
25 New FX Units:
Innerspace
Quad Resonator
Thriftshop Speaker
Classic Twin
Bassman
Hi-Wattage
Rock Stack
Brit-Vox
Boutique
San-Z-Amp
Stompbox Modeler
Metalzone Distortion
Toxic Smasher
Foxxy Fuzz
Analog Phaser
Analog Flanger
Analog Chorus
Analog Vibrato
Solina Ensemble
Vintage Tremolo
Envelope Filter
Crying Wah
Stomp-Comp
Precision Compressor
Studio 2-Band EQ
Flexible New FX Features:
16 FX units per patch
Full matrix modulation of every FX slot
New Aux FX rack per patch with Pre/Post fader sends
Hundreds of New FX Presets and Racks
Lock FX while browsing
Improvements/Special Features:
Live Mode with key splits
Enhanced Orb with Attractor mode
Tweak Trilian Custom Controls Interface inside Omnisphere
Global Clock Speed (Halftime, Doubletime, etc)
- and more!

thebrushwithin

#312
Another unique re synthesis tool, from the folks at iZotope - Iris2. It allows you to manipulate your own audio files, not just for the SY-300, but from any source, such as VG99 audio, in very unique ways. I don't have version 2, but I do enjoy version 1. Another great tool for sound design freaks!   :)

https://www.izotope.com/en/products/effects-instruments/iris/features/

Bill Ruppert


WOW!!!!!!!!!!


Quote from: thebrushwithin on April 20, 2015, 09:57:21 AM
The re synthesis ability is truly exciting!!! At the end of April, I'll be upgrading my Omnisphere 1.5 to 2.0, and, as usual, Eric Persing & Co. Have really taken their software into un chartered territory. Sure wish he still was programming for Roland, but, then again, we wouldn't have this monster, if he hadn't started Spectrasonics.
https://www.spectrasonics.net/products/omnisphere-2/index.php

Vast New Synthesis Possibilities:
Audio Import - Use your own audio file as a soundsource in Omnisphere
Over 400 New DSP Waveforms for the Synth Oscillator - an increase of 100X
Wavetable Synthesis - Each Waveform is now a Morphing Wavetable
Powerful New Granular Synthesis algorithm
Deeper FM/Ring Mod capabilities for aggressive timbres
8 New Filter Types - New Power Filters, Vowel, Resonators
New Unison Drift models Analog Polysynth behavior
Expanded Modulation with new sources and many more targets
Polyphonic LFO and Modulation Envelope options
Soundsource Reversing
Now includes over 10,000 sounds!
More than 3,000 New patches and soundsources from acclaimed Spectrasonics Sound Design Team
New Omnisphere EDM library with cutting-edge, modern sounds
New Exclusive Soundsources from Diego Stocco's Custom Built Instruments
New category of Phrase-based Soundsources for granular synthesis
Hundreds of new Circuit Bent Soundsources
Many Innovative new Psychoacoustic Soundsources
New Melodic Cave Stalactites Soundsources
...and much, much more!
New Interface:
Redesigned Wider User Interface with many improvements
New Show Modulation pane opens modulation routings/sources on left side
New Mini-Browser available at all times
Larger Full Browser Design
Enhanced Browsing Experience:
Sound Match™ feature instantly locates any related sounds in the library
Sound Lock™ allows endless useful variations by locking sound aspects while you browse
Easy Sound/Project Sharing for collaborators and third party libraries
Greatly Improved sound organization system
Fast Progressive Loading allows rapid auditioning
Browse Patches by Mood
Expanded Genres
Browse by Oscillator type
Boolean search options
New Arpeggiator Features:
Note transposition for step seq-style patterns
Arp pattern lock while browsing
Speed Offset control allows slow down/speed up effects
New modulation capabilities
25 New FX Units:
Innerspace
Quad Resonator
Thriftshop Speaker
Classic Twin
Bassman
Hi-Wattage
Rock Stack
Brit-Vox
Boutique
San-Z-Amp
Stompbox Modeler
Metalzone Distortion
Toxic Smasher
Foxxy Fuzz
Analog Phaser
Analog Flanger
Analog Chorus
Analog Vibrato
Solina Ensemble
Vintage Tremolo
Envelope Filter
Crying Wah
Stomp-Comp
Precision Compressor
Studio 2-Band EQ
Flexible New FX Features:
16 FX units per patch
Full matrix modulation of every FX slot
New Aux FX rack per patch with Pre/Post fader sends
Hundreds of New FX Presets and Racks
Lock FX while browsing
Improvements/Special Features:
Live Mode with key splits
Enhanced Orb with Attractor mode
Tweak Trilian Custom Controls Interface inside Omnisphere
Global Clock Speed (Halftime, Doubletime, etc)
- and more!

Elantric

#314
FWIW -  Omnisphere is $500 and needs a fast computer too - so budget that

But yes - its a very powerful tool

Elantric


Frankster

QuoteEven scrolling through the unit's 70 presets, we were floored. The tracking was dead-on for chords and single notes alike, and latency impressively minimal – we were able to conjure rumbling saw waves, bell-like chimes and a host of decidedly non-guitar-like sounds without the unit breaking a sweat.

http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/musikmesse-2015-hands-on-boss-sy-300-guitar-synthesizer-619814

Elantric


mchad


Quote:

"...Boss: they showed their new SY-300 analog guitar synthesizer that doesn't need anything glued on your guitar, just connected by your standard output jack. I was hugely interested in this, had to try it. Sadly, it was underwhelming. The sounds were interesting, but too experimental for my liking, couldn't think of any use for them in very most cases. More importantly, it was unreliable. After playing some chords, it seemed to crash, only transmitting a little bit of silent noise. Happened several times. I don't know if this was just the show model, but it was disappointing..."

From http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1675311

gumtown

That guy seemed to only like Marshall amps, and bagged everything else on show.

Quote from: mchad on April 20, 2015, 11:18:36 PM
Quote:

"...Boss: they showed their new SY-300 analog guitar synthesizer that doesn't need anything glued on your guitar, just connected by your standard output jack. I was hugely interested in this, had to try it. Sadly, it was underwhelming. The sounds were interesting, but too experimental for my liking, couldn't think of any use for them in very most cases. More importantly, it was unreliable. After playing some chords, it seemed to crash, only transmitting a little bit of silent noise. Happened several times. I don't know if this was just the show model, but it was disappointing..."

From http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1675311
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

mchad

Quote from: gumtown on April 20, 2015, 11:59:37 PM
That guy seemed to only like Marshall amps, and bagged everything else on show.

Yes I noticed that too. I think until we see a surgical demo of this thing we're effectively bystanders at the moment. We hope he is wrong.  ;)

rcf1956

Quote from: mchad on April 20, 2015, 11:18:36 PM
Quote:

"...After playing some chords, it seemed to crash, only transmitting a little bit of silent noise."

From http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1675311

I like my silence to be silent and my noise to be noisy; that 'silent noise' malarkey has put me right off  ;)

Frankster

Quote from: mchad on April 20, 2015, 11:18:36 PM
Quote:

"...Boss: they showed their new SY-300 analog guitar synthesizer that doesn't need anything glued on your guitar, just connected by your standard output jack. I was hugely interested in this, had to try it. Sadly, it was underwhelming. The sounds were interesting, but too experimental for my liking, couldn't think of any use for them in very most cases. More importantly, it was unreliable. After playing some chords, it seemed to crash, only transmitting a little bit of silent noise. Happened several times. I don't know if this was just the show model, but it was disappointing..."

From http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1675311

When someone is more excited about getting Tony Iommi's autograph and seeing a wall of Marshalls than experimenting with new sounds then you really have to take everything he says with a pinch of salt. As for the unit "crashing", I'd be prepared to bet that this was the first guitar synth he's ever used and what he calls a crash was down to him playing something that the synth had no hope of tracking with any accuracy.

rcf1956

#323
The new demo video for Sound On Sound seems to confirm that the 'oscillators' are modelled from the actual string sound, so looks like it is an update of Roland's HRM and COSM tech? There should be no latency though occasional glitching might be present on complex chords?

thebrushwithin

#324
QuoteThis is a great time to be a musician!

Yes it is!!! Yet, I find it so very ironic that the tools we are using these days, are capable of having us sounding better than ever, while gigs are becoming harder to find, the wages are less than years past, and, even though the internet should expand the possibilities for selling original music, getting a penny for having your song streamed will not pay for these sonic marvel boxes. It is no wonder most of us have to scrutinize our artistic tool purchases more than before.
We must resort to our innate creativity to be noticed at all!!!