GR-55 - Building patches for live use...

Started by Jim Williams, July 16, 2013, 09:08:26 AM

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Jim Williams

The first step in building patches for live use is establishing how to set the GR-55 in a live situation. there are 2 types to cover: what your audience hears and your stage monitoring. What your audience hears should be coming out your PA mains. and you stage monitoring is for you and your band mates. It is up to you on how you monitor yourself on stage but I recommend something close to the sound of what will be coming out of your PA mains. I use 2 tech 21 Powerengine 60's modifies with a horn. you should use some sort of full range amplification like a keyboard amp or powered speakers. This is very important for patch editing otherwise your patches will sound completely different when you play live and you will not get the sound you are looking for. Live there is no time for patch editing you need to be prepared or your audience will not see you as a professional. The rest of you band needs to be professional and have a dedication to a low stage volume so that your target audience only hears the sound of the mains. Your patches will only work if the rest of the band is on the same page. You can not work with players who want to be the loudest thing on stage. If you play with that guy who is a "tub purist" and cranks his amp up because that's the only way his amp sounds good, kick him to the curb! If your bass player plays at a volume that muddies up the stage and no one can tell what instrument is what, kick him to the curb! Drummers are the leader in high stage volume cause everyone thinks they have to be louder than the drums, not true.... you don't have to be that loud but if the drummer is messy and covers up his inadequacy with lots of un-needed noise kick him out of the band... he probably has a bad clock anyway.

Now building your patch, remember this is a guitar synth not a guitar processor! if you want to build guitar patches you might want to conceder a VG-99, AxeFX, Pod HD500 or a GT-100. The reason I bring this up is that for a long time I tweaked my patches at home day and night to get the same sound as a guitar rig and when I got to rehearsal the patches were very different and even more so at a live show. At home I would go crazy trying to get the perfect formula of EQ and speaker cab models, They all sounded great at home but not so much live. Then it occurred to me what did Roland intend this unit for? Well I tried some of Roland's stock patches through just my PA. after adjusting the 3 band EQ on my stereo channel on the PA the patch came to life without all the tweaking I have done in the past. so without all the changing cabinet models and endless EQ sweeping I found the amps to sound good in their default values with very minor tweaking in the Gain, Amp model EQ, mics and mic placement. What a revelation now it is pretty decent guitar processor as well. Still keep in mind the PCM synths is where the real power is and it won't sound as good as an AxeFX, but it will do the job.

Each amp will have a sweet setting that will make it sound pretty real just start with the default settings and take baby steps when changing things and always experiment with microphones and their placement. Always start with the dry amp sound once you have a good amp tone the rest will come naturally.

Go through Roland's presets and take a look at how they have amp models set up and apply that to your user patches. The patches might not sound cool at home but when you go through the PA they sound much bigger.
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Elantric

#1
So not here to steal the thread - but I feel a major issue is live real time FX Control at the gig. Every Guitarist needs this! Be sure you have tools that allow you to navigate to the sound you need on a moments notice.

For me - if I'm hired by a band to play guitar at a live show, I Must have instant access to all my tones I need at the gig. Sometimes the setlist changes, and often there is very little preshow prep to have all songs loaded into an ipad app like Onsong or Setlist Maker.

I admit I'm an old school player for 45 years, and most of the time I prefer to bring a typical small FX pedal board and small amp , simply because I have all the tools I need where I can navigate and edit at the gig. If I know I need to use several Alt tunings on a moments notice  - I prefer to bring my Line 6 Tyler Variax and HD-500 over the GR-55. I find the GR-55 way too limited in the User control area, and there is a requirement to memorize or have a GR-55 Preset List handy.

Should someone ask me to play slide in open A tuning, I can dial in an adequate sound on my Tyler Variax + HD500 in 5 seconds anytime, anywhere.  I cant do that on the GR-55     

Jim Williams

E, You are quite right.... but I started this thing on building a patch that will sound good live. The next step is organizing your patches for live use. For most of us we probably are in one or two bands at a time and we won't need to use every patch location. So I myself have different banks set up for doing types of music for when I get called upon to sub in or jam with other bands. I set up patches with creative control assigns so that I can use the patch for more than just one song. If I were going old school I would have one amp with my ART SGX 2000(for Delay and reverb mostly) in the loop and a overdrive and a cry baby in front of the amp. I look at patches the same way and I don't design them to sound just like the guy I covering, I tend to use my own personal sounds. so I use about 9 patches in a gig and navigating them is no trouble. it may get a little tricky when adding PCM synths because I will use more patches for those sets. so I may have banks 1-9 set aside for my original band, 10-15 for classic rock covers, 15-20 for metal covers and 20-24 for country rock songs. so for any given situation navigation is pretty easy to navigate with S1 and S2 switches and preset pedals.
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Jim Williams

#3
Here is a patch I made from scratch called Classic iRock 101. You could play almost a hole classic rock set with this patch. There are some control assigns that will make it useful. First you start off with a Les Paul with P90's and a Marshall Plexi amp(how much more classic can you get?). for the first assign I assigned the GK volume to amp gain, pickup selection and amp volume. this gives the effect having the volume of your neck pickup turned down and using the toggle switch to go from clean to dirty. the CTL switch is the amp lead boost and I have a wha on the Expression pedal. On the GK knob there is a sweet spot where the pickup selector hits the front and rear pickups at the same time and it s gain sets in just the right place for a very "Pageish" tone. and you can take this patch and modify it to cover the rest of your night, maybe one with some chorus control on the GK volume or increase the delay with the sol boost. You might want to put a B3 PCM sound on the Expression Pedal or switch to a sax solo.there are so many options that it boggles the mind.
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greekjgg

Good tips, I've learned through trial and error to not try and mess with the stock patches as much as possible. Ideally, there was a reason you picked that stock patch to begin with. To completely rewrite it you almost always end up straying too far from what it was originally. I typically find a "sound" and then I usually just might tweak the "tuning" or I combine it with a PCM setting I need. I'm not recording so I don't need to "reinvent" the wheel. I'm basically trying to find some sounds that sound like a song we are covering.

My biggest trial and error is getting the proper volume between a cosm guitar sound and a pcm sound. IE, We do Journey's separate ways and damn Jim I think I used your tweak and people just freak when they watch me play the keyboard sounds on a guitar and it sounds damn close. My issue is I toggle back between the pcm and cosm for the solo lead parts on guitar and the guitar is always too low. Even when I've just out of sheer frustration increase it like 30%, I can never hear it live or at practice and then I'm "tweaking" again before the next gig. I can't seem to get it right. I also notice on patches I just totally "duplicate" except for a tuning, the volume is never the same. Why would that happen? I literally just copy the patch, change the tuning to like a half or whole step down and save and yet there is a 30% vol difference?
Setup:
Homemade EVH Frankenstrat with built in GK3
GR55
Rocktron Talkbox
TC Helicon Voicetone C1
Tech 21 Power Engine 60

Jim Williams

try working from the other end.....lower the PCM tone(s) as far as the copy issue I have never encountered this however sometimes when using the Floorboard editor it will change some settings and misread some of your changes.
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Phatstrat

Jim I hear ya.  How do you 1. set up in 5 to 10 minutes,  2. have all patches organized for song selection for 4-sets, 3. Volume balanced between Mag PUs, Model COSM, PCM-1 and PCM-2 and  4. external module including
5. having enough head room for solos for every venue, patches and lineup.   

1. Organize cables in snake using corrogated plastic and labeled with color electrical tape.  Guaranteed to find your cable on stage in the fray, in the dark using your smart phone as flash light.  Corrogated plastic tube makes noise so your band mates and stage hands will immediately step off your snake protecting your instrument cable inside.

2. Find a midi foot controller the most switches (I use my absolute HD500). All my banks bottom rows have AG=Wah=Strat Clean/compressed = ES335 Crunch = Les Paul HG solo.  Can switch to any type of guitar at the push of a button.  Bank 1A Top Row Switches for Rock/Blues/R&B/Funk/Jazz Patches: Piano, B3, Rhodes, Sax, Horns  is the staple.  Bank 1B Top Row Switches for Country.  Bank 1C Top Row Switches for Country Bank 1D Row Switches for Your style or special gig.   13 selections is more than you will need for any song or gig. 1B = 8 Selections, 1C = 8 Selections and 1D = 8 Selections.  Use EQ to remove lower and higher frequencies that are not in that instrument and does nothing for your tone but add noise.  I found that Velocity Sens +35 and Curve 4 works for me.  I also dial down the sensitivity of each string to S(6)=45 to S(1)=80.  Always use new picks.
When performing outdoors, a guest said he heard a 12-piece band playing some great tunes and heard  B3 organ, Grand Piano with sax, strat and Les Paul and hurried down to find out it was the GR55.
Wow!! You guys fooled me. He said he will just close his eyes and enjoy the music because his brain was playing tricks on him.  LOL!

3.  Find a place you can turn up and set your stage volume.  Set rhythm volume - Set Solo volume - Leave expression pedal head room for your adrenaline or deaf band mates.  Never use head phones or set volume in your bed room.

4.  The GR55 does not do a lot but what it does, it does well.  So, purchase a Midi Thru One in and two outs box for $50 and plug your foot controller into it and one midi Thru to GR55 midi in and midi Thru to your sound module.  Don't waste anymore time.   During a song on stage in the dark, push a switch on the foot controller and switch patches on both the GR55 and External sound module all on Channel 1.  Use the GR55 as it was intended and layer its tones with the external sound module tones as needed.  No more fussin' - just concentrate on excellent playing and watch thoses faces looking for the invisible instrument.  Went to a jam once and the jam host asked me how I was going to haul the B3, Leslie,  Acoustic Grand Piano and guitar amp on stage? LOL!

5. After setting your GR55 tone and patch volume at stage live level,  mark your tube amp for master volume, PA, Flat Reference amp small venue at 10:00 o'clock and for large venue at 1:00 O'clock.  Anything above that use a microphone on the amp.

Toby Krebs

Install the effect loop mod on the GR55 and put a Boss compressor-Visual Sound or Fulltone overdrive/distortion and last in the loop a Boss GE-7 e.q. pedal and one guitar patch in the GR55 becomes 3 or 4 depending on how you have the patch setup.I can set it up and tear it town in 10 minutes and don't need or use a giant foot controller. I have a GT-10 for that.I use a midi mouse(Tech 21) to change patches on the GR55 and can get to a patch pretty darn fast on the fly.

gandolf

Great Thread!
Thanks for starting Jim!

I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on making up a PCM/synth sounds.

For me, i'm doing covers, so i spend a lot of time trying to emulate synths in top40 songs...i ussually get something about right ...but it takes so long.

My current method is to start by listening...lots and lots, over and over. on different speaker and headphones....trying to imagine what the components of the sounds are (eg can i hear strings? does it have a piano or organ overlay? etc,etc ....so i try to imagine a "spectrum" of sounds...)

would you have any tips in this regard?

Toby Krebs

Most of the covers I play use layered tones-piano&strings/B3&piano/Elec.piano&strings/brass&elec.piano/clav&elec.piano etc.... If I can ever get the time I will post 4 or 5 I use a lot for covers. Hoping to get some free time in October. Try the combination of two tones in a patch. It allows me to cover almost everything.I am performing Elton Johns-Your Song at a wedding this Saturday and I wrote a patch for it with acoustic piano/nylon string guitar and strings. More than good enough for live performance.Good Luck!

Magiamusical

In my case, I have the complete set in order in the GR-55, then I have a set of generic patches: Classic Rock, Acoustic/Strings, Strato, Clean Les Paul with OD switchable, etc. A midi pedal is a must to cover most of the variations in a song, I have a 5 switch midi pedal which normally a have for Leslie speed, Select synth and mute guitar, Amp Solo, select synth patch. Except for the Hold, I don't use the switch in the GR-55 and shortly not even that (programing to send the SysEx with the midi Foot Pedal).
Godin LGXT, Les Paul Studio w/GK3, JTV89F w/GK3, GR-55

Toby Krebs

If the band leader won't use a set list you can't line anything up in advance. I would like to be able to do that but when someone walks up between songs with a 20 or 100 dollar bill in their hand and wants to hear "blank" song we play it. I can't use an I-Pad with setlist maker etc... for this same reason. I catagorize all my patches into banks of three-General purpose/Blues/Jazz/ Country/ Metal etc...and I can get to them in an instant even while playing with the midi mouse. It's inconvenient to work with no set list but it does fill the tip jar more often than not to be able to play almost anything requested. These days the typical club audience has people in their 20s and people in their 60s and they want what they want when they want it! Sucks for me!

Jim Williams

QuoteIf the band leader won't use a set list you can't line anything up in advance. I would like to be able to do that but when someone walks up between songs with a 20 or 100 dollar bill in their hand and wants to hear "blank" song we play it. I can't use an I-Pad with setlist maker etc... for this same reason. I catagorize all my patches into banks of three-General purpose/Blues/Jazz/ Country/ Metal etc...and I can get to them in an instant even while playing with the midi mouse. It's inconvenient to work with no set list but it does fill the tip jar more often than not to be able to play almost anything requested. These days the typical club audience has people in their 20s and people in their 60s and they want what they want when they want it! Sucks for me!

When I play live I use a more "old school approach" with my sounds. I have patches for playing many songs so I don't have a lot of jumping around and messing with levels. If you are good and play the songs well it won't matter if you have the exact sound as long as you are in the ball park. Talent and knowing the songs right will trump the artist sound every time. I often play with just my guitar and a Marshall half stack with just a delay in the FX loop. I try not to get hung up with all the PCM synths because I am a guitar player and any PCM sounds only add to my guitar sounds. Even if you are playing a piano part know the part and don't fake it but if you are getting requests set your sounds up a lot more simple. Set your patches to have multiple assigns in them so you can do many things with them. I have patches that have a few different things going on just the GK knob... Guitar volume, amp gain, amp volume, chorus and fade in a pad when I turn it down. I use a FV-500l for volume while the expression pedal can do other things as well. Don't just turn things on and off assign level changes as well. You can use the pedal to do entire EQ sweeps at once or you can increase delay levels while you are going up to engage the wha(and boost at the same time). It's all in there you just have to imagine what you want to do. In the virtual world you can do anything you can dream. Arrange patches so you can play 40 songs in 3 banks(9 patches). Stop naming the patches after songs and title them so you know what is in them and what they can do. If you try this I bet you could play a hole set with just 3 patches. Most of the patches I create are for studio use or the are just because I can patches... my performance patches reside in my 1st 4 banks and yes from time to time I do wander to my other banks for something special but I know about where I keep those patches.
Jimmy.
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Toby Krebs

Agreed. I do have a few patches with song titles but that's just for convenience. I can play 20 or more tunes with my "Mustang Sally" patch as an example.I just really dislike that tune so I use the title for a patch as a bit of a joke. My first bank and the one I use most is called General Purpose-Patch 1-Funk Guitar w/elec. piano and horns I can turn on or off independently using S1/S2 switches. Patch 2 "Mustang Sally"-B3 w/ a Tele Fender Deluxe amp rotary speaker sim. controlled by ctl. switch. Patch 3 is a Les Paul Marshall patch I can play almost anything with even a clean part the volume knob is so sensitive in the GR55s modelled amp. Those three I use 80 per cent of the time but I wont play any George Benson tunes or Duke Ellington tunes with them. I have another bank for that. Many ways to use the GR55 without naming patches as songs. I have another GR55 setup for keyboard only patches and I only use around 10 to 15 slots when I use that one. I never mess with levels in front of an audience. Never. If something isn't right at a paying gig I haven't done my homework and I always do my homework. I can and have and sometimes still do play a whole gig with a tube amp a strat a BK Butler Real Tube Pedal and a wah. I use the virtual tones the GR55 offers mostly for me. They increase my interest and fun factor at a lot of the gigs I do. I never record with it. I still use tube amps and individual pedals for session work which I do a lot of.As far as "faking" piano keyboard sounds I have 30 years of jazz training/practicing and performing under my belt so when I am playing a piano solo during a jazz tune with extended changes I am not faking anything. I cant do all the left hand stuff but can hold own my playing the correct extensions and altered chords jazz requires. Playing the keyboard parts on cover tunes is not too difficult  as they are mostly triads and pretty formulaic once you have learned about 1,000 of them!
The bottom line is that each player using the GR55/VG99 etc... has to find what works for his or herself. And I agree very strongly that using my methods won't work for most other players because we all have different training/skills/goals/material.
I am just putting my opinions/patches etc... on this forum for others to consider not for anyone to try outright.
My medicine works for me and me alone. That is true for the most part.
Thanks to Jim Williams for all he has contributed to this forum. I especially find the first post in this thread inspirational.
He always gets me thinking about what is possible!