Fishman Triple Play COSM Type Modeling?

Started by Bob Kay, April 29, 2013, 10:37:30 AM

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Bob Kay

Cheers All,

I been lurking for some time and have learned much from everybody here. Thanks!

My question for the uber-techies here: Since (I assume) the pitch to midi is taking place on the computer, is there a possibility of hacking the FTP to create our own COSM/Variax type tones from the hexaphonic analog signals being received? Perhaps someone can hook into it and get it into Reaktor or Max as a proof of concept?

I still find hexaphonic tone modeling to be more interesting and useful than pitch to midi. Having control of our own COSM tones would be amazing! Only then could Fishman pry my GR-55 from my hands! ;)

Elantric

#1
Back up and review how the FTP works, will provide insight and explain problems with using a stock FTP for COSM Modelling

The FTP Hex PU (on right)  feeds 6 channels of analog signals to the FTP Controller (on Left),



where internally there are 6 A/D convertors, and an ADI Shark DSP which is performing Analog Pitch to MIDI conversion - all inside the  FTP Controller. Also inside the FTP Controller is a digital wireless transceiver - for two way MIDI ONLY communication with the FTP Receiver stick.

Note that there are zero analog signals being sent to the FTP Receiver stick!

   
If you want the FTP PU to also accommodate COSM Guitar Modelling, you must tap the six separate analog string signals before these signals hit the FTP's guitar mounted Controller, and perhaps with a custom adapter, allow the FTP PU to feed two targets:

* FTP Controller
* GK-3 Preamp with 13 pin output. 

Shawnb solved this in this manner



musicman65

Ah! Another person interested in using GK pup with FTP and VG/GR. We need a splitter/converter that allow both....

See?

bd

Bob Kay

Hmmm... Thanks Elantric! My bad. I assumed the breakthrough over the Axon was doing the pitch to midi with the PC to eliminate DSP hardware costs. I guess it's naive to think a USB dongle can replace a 6 channel audio interface, especially since they couldn't transmit the pup signal in the first place!  :-[

Elantric

#4
QuoteThanks Elantric! My bad. I assumed the breakthrough over the Axon was doing the pitch to midi with the PC to eliminate DSP hardware costs.

In 2013,  DSPs are under $15 - thus the reason they are being employed everywhere.

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=59K2889&&CMP=AFC-SF-T11
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/ADSP-BF531_BF532_BF533.pdf


QuoteI assumed the breakthrough over the Axon was doing the pitch to midi with the PC to eliminate DSP hardware costs.

Not the case! If the FTP was "doing the pitch to midi with the PC" then it would not be possible to use the FTP with iPad
(as described here)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8427.msg60215#msg60215


QuoteI guess it's naive to think a USB dongle can replace a 6 channel audio interface, especially since they couldn't transmit the pup signal in the first place!

Be sure to contact me when you see a 6 channel low latency wireless audio interface that is under $300

Orren Merton

Quote from: Elantric on April 29, 2013, 11:10:02 AM
If you want the FTP PU to also accommodate COSM Guitar Modelling, you must tap the six separate analog string signals before these signals hit the FTP's guitar mounted Controller, and perhaps with a custom adapter, allow the FTP PU to feed two targets:
* FTP Controller
* GK-3 Preamp with 13 pin output. 

For existing installed 13-pin piezo systems, such an internal adapter/splitter would be a pretty awesome thing. :)

Orren

musicman65

Orren,

Someone tried it already. They even tried attenuator circuits to cut the signal down. This was after the piezo preamp which isn't the same though. Perhaps if someone could feed an FTP with a piezos directly and give us a report? I suspect that won't work well either because piezos are extremely high impedance so splitting the signal would most likely reduce the output a lot.

We need a custom circuit that can split a GK or piezo signal without pulling down the signal.

bd

utensil

Tried feeding the FTP with Graphtech Piezo's directly. I.e no pre-amp or 13, just directly connected , the signal was too  weak. All the FTP app's sensitivities set to max and still it was only be in the first yellow portion. I think the impedance mismatch results in a very low signal.

Currently using the FTP hooked to the 13 pin using 6 trimpots, 6 capacitors and a 9V battery to power the pre-amp. It's almost as accurate as the original but a few more false notes.

The thread where this was discussed and where Elantric commented on how to go about making the splitter is:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8413.0









musicman65

#8
Utensil,

That's great work! I suspect the mistriggering comes from the FTP's algorithm expecting a waveform from a magnetic hex pickup vs. a hex piezo setup. My guess is that Roland handles this with different filtering (settings) for piezo.

I would like to use your circuit with GK mag pickup. The circuit would be on the other end of the GK cable and additional feed the VG/GR processor for COSM guitar and synth, and alternate tuning.

My questions are:

1. Would having the FTP wart mounted in my pedalboard and not having access to the local FTP buttons be a big issue?

2. Can the FTP wart be powered (charged) while it operates?

3. Can the FTP receive MIDI to change its parameters? (Chromatic mode, pitch bend, etc)

I'm ready to pull the trigger on buying one if I can make it play nice live with VG/GR COSM.

Anyone else interested in this or am I alone?

bd

utensil

#9
Quote from: musicman65 on April 30, 2013, 08:02:06 AM

I suspect the mistriggering comes from the FTP's algorithm expecting a waveform from a magnetic hex pickup vs. a hex piezo setup. My guess is that Roland handles this with different filtering (settings) for piezo.


I think so, I don't think piezo's will ever match the performance of the mags on the FTP unless Fishman themselves create settings for it or release a version for it. In general the piezo's detect more subtle physical movements but I don't think that's an advantage for midi guitar.

Quote from: musicman65 on April 30, 2013, 08:02:06 AM

My questions are:

1. Would having the FTP wart mounted in my pedalboard and not having access to the local FTP buttons be a big issue?

2. Can the FTP wart be powered (charged) while it operates?

3. Can the FTP receive MIDI to change its parameters? (Chromatic mode, pitch bend, etc)

I'm ready to pull the trigger on buying one if I can make it play nice live with VG/GR COSM.


1) The way  mine is now is with about 50cm of GK cable, pin 12 to battery +ve and ground to batt -ve (if your using a roland GK you probably need 2 batteries to give a negative voltage to pin 13), and pins 1-6 go to 10K trimpots before getting to FTP controller. I also added 0.3MF capacitors to each trying to make a high pass filter but it's pretty much the same as without them, maybe a bit better (I've scrutinized so much I can't tell anymore). I'm working with short lengths of cable. But since it's the pre-amped standard 13 pin output it should run as long as any GK setup so I don't think interference should be an issue.

As far as the buttons go, I think it's about your own preference, I don't really touch the FTP controller much at all once I switch it on so It wouldn't bother me to have it far away. I mount it on the strap since that way I take advantage of the wireless.

2) Yep, from my experience it works fine while charging.

3) You can use a midi foot controller or CC device for a few things (http://www.fishman.com/software/tripleplay/help/tripleplay_tut9.pdf) but it doesn't apply to most parameters . The FTP presents itself as a 2 MIDI devices to the system, 1 control device and 1 as the note generator.When running the FTP software communicates with the "control" device via midi. I suppose in theory one could send custom commands to the control device to change parameters but I don't think the API's are open or available yet or if they ever will be.

I'd highly recommend the FTP, It really does track excellently. Even with the Piezos  it's still tracks much better than my GR-55 (with either Piezos or magnetic).

just my 1 cent, hope it's helpful



musicman65

#10
Utensil,

Thanks! That's most of what I need to pull the trigger on the FTP. My only concern is switching pitch bend on/off. The rest, I never touch as it can be controlled in the hardware synth's parameters. Clean, accurate MIDI is the main thing.

I don't think I'll need batteries since the GK is powered by the cable. DC blocking audio coupling caps will be necessary though. The +/-7vdc GK supply is incompatible with the FTP 9vdc supply. An added benefit of audio coupling caps is the 3db per octave high-pass roll off "may" help prevent ultra low frequency glitches.

I'll be building my interface as soon as I get the FTP and post my progress!

bd

Elantric

#11
musicman65,

I know you do excellent work on these adapter boxes.

One suggestion, is build the FTP adapter with:

Gk13 In and Gk13 Pin Out

So the signal chain would be

                                                                                    | - FTP Wireless MIDI
Guitar with GK 13 pin Out --->DIY ADAPTER GK INPUT -<
                                                                                    |- DIY ADAPTER GK OUTPUT --> VG-99 or GR-55


Rather like the RackVax Adapter
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5213.0



utensil

Yes I think since 99% of this forum is GK equipped this would appreciate seeing something like this.IMO Ideally the adapter would work if EITHER or BOTH FTP or VG-99/GR55 plugged in simultaneously (Power?). This would be useful if you just want to use the FTP via 13 pin or to enable both to be used satisfying pretty much all usages.





musicman65

Yes sir, you read my mind. I plan to make a metal "live in" housing for the FTP to provide shielding and allow it to survive on the floor in case I don't want it in the rack. It will have GK in/out pass-through with isolated signal tap for hex to the FTP.

I need a source for panel mount male and female 13 pin GK jacks. I'm sure I can find them but suggestions on better quality components are welcome.

bd


Elantric

#14
QuoteI plan to make a metal "live in" housing for the FTP to provide shielding and allow it to survive on the floor in case

BE aware than an all metal box may kill your FTP Wireless antenna link!

QuoteI need a source for panel mount male and female 13 pin GK jacks

Use search
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4765.msg32273#msg32273

http://www.packetradio.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=706



Also contact vguitarforums member "Gumbo"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7256.msg50576#msg50576
Quote
...and yes, I WILL be selling (locking) 13-pin chassis-mount jacks very soon..   ...finally!  8)

PM me for more info on that if you want..

Cheers,
Gumbo in Oz

musicman65

#15
Of course, FTP to be bezel mounted.

I'm still open to pros/cons of various versions of the 13pin from a design/installation standpoint. Finding a source is pretty easy.

Edit: Thanks Elantric for the references.

Thanks,

bd

volts3300

Hi all,
     I don't understand what exactly is cosm? I have achieved something I believe may be similar. I use my FTP in mono mode with pitch bend enabled to trigger kontakt. I use acoustic legends hd and electri6ity for libraries to accomplish guitar modeling. These are sample libraries created by sampling actual guitars. Old gibsons martins fenders and the like. I use the di output settings in kontakt so all I get is the actual sample. I then effect the tones with guitar rig 5 or ableton live's host of audio effects. I have found this to be very convincing and ill tell you my ibanez prestige sounds exactly like my favorite old 61 reissue les paul. Its great because my les paul never did play like my shred ibanez. I have also developed midi filters in ableton to do alternate tunings on the fly. If there are any ableton users out there interested I wouldn't mind uploading the track templates and a link to the alternate tuning reference that I am using to make the tuning filters. Does this setup come close to the cosm modeling I hear discussed on the forums? IDK but I suspect it accomplishes the same goals. Let me know what you think.

shawnb

Quote from: volts3300 on May 01, 2013, 07:13:44 AM
     I don't understand what exactly is cosm?

COSM is Roland's modeling technology (Composite Object Sound Modeling) for emulating other guitars & amps.  There is a COSM engine in the GR-55, and the VG-99 actually has two COSM engines. 

COSM is NOT driven by MIDI, instead, it's a form of DSP that operates in real-time, thus, no latency.  I.e., it acts like an FX unit.  Guitar Rig, Amplitube, & the Kemper are all competing modelers, of varying strengths & weaknesses. 

Many hate COSM & think it's too "honky".   Some work magic with it, like aliensporebomb:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8335.0

Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#18
Read this link for all details on Roland COSM DSP Modeling and how to create patches with units that employ it (VG-99, GR-55, etc)
Roland COSM  Reference Library
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0


QuoteDoes this setup come close to the cosm modeling I hear discussed on the forums?

No, because even best string to MIDI convertor will have latency, and most guitar to MIDI systems have a limited velocity range, and not the true 0-127 velocity range that the MIDI specification supports. Many systems only have 12-14 active velocity ranges

Think of Roland COSM as the Roland version of what other companies call DSP Modeling (Line6, Digitech, Zoom) .
Roland's COSM has near zero latency, fully responds to all your playing dynamics and the way you strike the string.

Between 1995 and 2003. Roland was the only source for hexaphonic DSP modeling using a separate path for each string (VG-8, VG-88).
This "hexaphonic" audio path from the Guitar allows DSP applied Alt Tunings, and Splits with Bass on bottom E &A strings, and Jazz Guitar on remaining Top 4 strings (VG-8, VG-88, VG-99)

IN 2003, Line 6 with the Variax Guitars gave users another option for hexaphonic DSP modeling using a separate path for each string, but the Line 6 implementation lacks Roland features, like Guitar to MIDI, or String Splits with Bass on bottom. 

I would describe the feeling of playing a guitar using the Roland VG-99 with COSM technology as playing a game of billiards with a solid straight pool cue stick lent to you by Minnesota Fats. You play very accurately, can directly apply controlled spin on the Cue ball and only limitation is the users skill.
 


I would describe the feeling of playing a guitar to MIDI system as playing a game of billiards with a foam rubber pool noodle. You must change your playing approach to always compensate for the error prone hardware. 



There have been dozens of Guitar to MIDI systems, and in 2013 the Fishman Tripleplay is as good as it gets today. But its not duplicating nor replacing Roland COSM guitar technology - yet.



volts3300

Thanks for the explanations. I see the difference. For me latency in my rig is undetectable to my ears. I am personally happy with the rig I've got. I realy wish I could lay my hands on a gr55 cheaply to see if I'm missing anything.

volts3300

IDK the technical specs of the FTP but I have found it to be very dynamic and expressive when paired with the kontakt sampler. A pool noodle it is not.

Elantric

#21
QuoteI realy wish I could lay my hands on a gr55 cheaply to see if I'm missing anything.

Better still,  find a used VG-8 or VG-88  - these are often under $300 used (with far greater COSM abilities than the GR-55) , and well worth owning (or trying)  if you already have a guitar with 13 pin access.

I figure only 20% of the folks who write about the Roland VG-8, VG-88, VG-99 have actually played one long enough to form a valid judgement worth sharing. I got so irritated reading all the  Roland COSM dis-info on the net that i started this forum to help set the record straight.

QuoteI have found this to be very convincing and ill tell you my ibanez prestige sounds exactly like my favorite old 61 reissue les paul.

Its important to maintain a perspective on each individuals exposure and abilities. I own and play bulk of the gear we talk about here, and I would never make a claim that my MIDI Guitar duplicates my Les Paul or Strat into my Kemper, or my GK-3 equipped guitar feeding my VG-99.

Riffs I know do not work on MIDI Guitar are bulk of Billy Gibbons,  Jeff Beck, Arlen Roth, Danny Gatton, Hellicasters.
Any riff that employs Spontaneous pinch harmonics, sliding harmonics (Heart's intro to "Barracuda") on the fly will fail on MIDI guitar systems.     

aliensporebomb

It amazes me too.  Lots of people say it's terrible and then they hear me in a live setting playing what sounds like a tube amp with realistic feedback response and touch sensitivity and they go "where's your guitar amp" and I just point at the VG-99.  Anyway.....
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

QuoteIf there are any ableton users out there interested I wouldn't mind uploading the track templates and a link to the alternate tuning reference that I am using to make the tuning filters.

Yes  please do! Many here use (or are learning) Ableton Live.

volts3300

OK Elantric I'm still working on getting the tunings set up. I halve about two thirds of a pdf dicument I found on the interwebs set up in live 8.2. I will finish this project tonight and try to upload the .als files and the link to the reference I used to create them. What it will produce when you open them in ableton is a grouped set of tracks with the 6 channels of triple play mapped to the six inputs with the correct midi transpose values entered for the selected tuning. Example open c. A user will have to assign a midi instrument to each track in order to use them. I use the suite version of live so mine default to an operator synth piano but I will remove that from the files prior to the upload because if you are using a lesser version of live it might glitch. I'm not sure if it would just load the tracks and ignore the missing synth or spit an error. At the most it will be tomorrow night. Could be as soon as tonight. Is there anything special I need to know to get the files to the forum?