Firmware updates to premium products during an economic recession?

Started by Elantric, July 15, 2011, 02:18:36 AM

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whippinpost91850


Elantric

The HD500 can control everything on the GR-55 via MIDI .


The GR-55 sits separately off to the side, as a signal processor only..

MCK

Glad to see you finally found a good use for the HD500  ;D ;D ;D  Sorry... Couldn't let you get by without a tease there... What a let down the whole HD500 & new VariAx debacle has turned out to be hasn't it...

Elantric

Life will be perfect in September 2011 when I (finally) get my JTV-69 and mount a GK-3 to it.

Basically the rig will be the JTV-69, HD-500, GR-55, and Jam man Looper  - = a clone of Germanicus's rig.

Until then, I'll keep my current rig - which i only use 10% of for the surf band:


http://www.denturesurfmusic.com/

whippinpost91850

iI must be missing something when I use the guitar out on the GR55, I still get the mute/delay. I am not doing program change from the GR55

Elantric

QuoteWhat a let down the whole HD500 & new VariAx debacle has turned out to be hasn't it...

Nowhere near as bad a let down as the Dark Fire ;)

Elantric

QuoteiI must be missing something when I use the guitar out on the GR55, I still get the mute/delay. I am not doing program change from the GR55


Actually I have a custom normal PU routing bypass box built into a modified US-20, and that is what is feeding the HD-500

More details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2940.msg20799#msg20799

whippinpost91850

THAT EXPLINS IT. I THOUGH I HAD JUST COMPLETLY MISSED SOMETHING. THANKS FOR THE INFO.

Elantric

Quote
QuoteiI must be missing something when I use the guitar out on the GR55, I still get the mute/delay. I am not doing program change from the GR55

I'll try to look at this tonight and see if there is a work around.

My hunch is that if the GR-55's Guitar Out is always assigned to be "Normal Guitar", for all patches, this might avoid the GR-55 Guitar Out "Mute" during every GR-55 patch change.

whippinpost91850

Awesome that would certainly be a less expensive alternative.Because of work I wont be able to get back to my rig until Friday. Thanks

MCK

Quote from: Elantric on July 18, 2011, 04:09:08 PM
Nowhere near as bad a let down as the Dark Fire ;)

Touchee! Well played!  ;D

PS. Great website for the Dentures.

whippinpost91850

Elantric, did you happen to get a chance to try the guitar direct out routing ?

Elantric

It mutes with every patch change  - so if the mute bothers you (as it does me), its best to feed normal guitar output to an entirely separate audio signal path.

I use a POD HD500

whippinpost91850

Thanks, I thought that was the case. I'll try my work around this weekend.

aliensporebomb

Any chance of having an outboard reverb unit to have a carryover "tail" to whatever sound you play prior to the cutoff then when the patch changes the tail will still sound?  I suppose that presupposes the sound you're working with having a tail would be desirable.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: MCK on July 18, 2011, 03:41:12 PM
What a let down the whole HD500 & new VariAx debacle has turned out to be hasn't it...

Could you explain this a bit? Although I, personally, find the new VariAxes to be somewhat uncompelling, and I find the HD series to be very uncompelling, the posts which I've read on their forum do not seem to suggest any sort of debacle.

MCK

Sure. Perhaps mine were not well chosen words. I was mainly referring to how the new VariAxes are almost a year behind schedule and how at release time they were introduced as the best partner for a HD500 etc. No big deal really.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: MCK on July 22, 2011, 07:07:43 PM
Sure. Perhaps mine were not well chosen words. I was mainly referring to how the new VariAxes are almost a year behind schedule and how at release time they were introduced as the best partner for a HD500 etc. No big deal really.

Ah, I see. No problem; I was just concerned that there might be technical or build problems with either product which would make them bad investments.

Now_And_Then

Quote from: germanicus on July 15, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
This reflects my conversation with Rolands Director of Sales Strategic Accounts at the gr55 clinic I attended in D.C. recently.

He basically told me that domestic sales of the vg99 were terrible, and they thought it was just too expensive for the market. Gr55 is the new model for price point and degree of feature set.

He didnt rule out a new vg product, but reading between the lines I wouldnt hold my breath. I love the vg99, but I would also wager that for a majority of those guitarists looking to get a VG/GR product, the gr55 feature set and price point makes much more sense. I think the dual modelling chains in the vg99 is fantastic and groundbreaking for many, but overall how many guitarists use that?

I think that this is the problem right here: the insistence of making an all-in-one-box product.

As far as I can tell, it a mistake to think that a guitarist who wants the COSM-processor part of the VG would also necessarily want the guitar-to-midi part. I would think that (to take an example) a $1000 VG-99 with *no* guitar-to-midi capability would have sold better than the VG-99 *with* midi capability that they actually released. The number guitarists interested in guitar-to-midi is but a very, very small fraction of the number of guitarists interested in effects boxes and pedals - every guitarist I know and have ever known has been interested in effects boxes and pedals, whereas the number of those interested in midi, well, you know...

As soon as I read the specs for the VG-99, i.e. before it had even come to market, I was very perturbed by the inclusion of a guitar-to-midi capability, because I know that this is expensive technology, and so I knew that this capability was a part, and probably a big part, of the reason why the VG-99 was so expensive. And not only is it expensive, but Roland's technology is all not all that great.

A $1400 box is not the place for someone to first experience guitar-to-midi conversion. I would think that anyone interested in it would already have some sort of Roland guitar synth (or maybe an Axon etc), in which case the guitar-to-midi capability in the VG-99 simply increases the price while giving the buyer a capability which he already has in a different unit. It is redundant. Anyone not interested in guitar-to-midi conversion might simply think that the VG-99 is not a good buy because it is too expensive, and comes with a guitar-to-midi capability that he does not want and therefore represents to him wasted money. It is a feature that not everyone finds attractive or useful. But it does increase the price for everyone, and more than likely it increases the price to the point where it decreases sales.

To me, it just seems to be a strategic error to take a system composed of discrete components and combine them in a needless way. The mere fact that both guitar-to-midi and COSM guitars use GK/hex pickups is not really a compelling reason to bundle the two technologies together.





germanicus

Quote from: Now_And_Then on July 23, 2011, 05:12:07 AM
I think that this is the problem right here: the insistence of making an all-in-one-box product.

As far as I can tell, it a mistake to think that a guitarist who wants the COSM-processor part of the VG would also necessarily want the guitar-to-midi part. I would think that (to take an example) a $1000 VG-99 with *no* guitar-to-midi capability would have sold better than the VG-99 *with* midi capability that they actually released. The number guitarists interested in guitar-to-midi is but a very, very small fraction of the number of guitarists interested in effects boxes and pedals - every guitarist I know and have ever known has been interested in effects boxes and pedals, whereas the number of those interested in midi, well, you know...

As soon as I read the specs for the VG-99, i.e. before it had even come to market, I was very perturbed by the inclusion of a guitar-to-midi capability, because I know that this is expensive technology, and so I knew that this capability was a part, and probably a big part, of the reason why the VG-99 was so expensive. And not only is it expensive, but Roland's technology is all not all that great.

A $1400 box is not the place for someone to first experience guitar-to-midi conversion. I would think that anyone interested in it would already have some sort of Roland guitar synth (or maybe an Axon etc), in which case the guitar-to-midi capability in the VG-99 simply increases the price while giving the buyer a capability which he already has in a different unit. It is redundant. Anyone not interested in guitar-to-midi conversion might simply think that the VG-99 is not a good buy because it is too expensive, and comes with a guitar-to-midi capability that he does not want and therefore represents to him wasted money. It is a feature that not everyone finds attractive or useful. But it does increase the price for everyone, and more than likely it increases the price to the point where it decreases sales.

To me, it just seems to be a strategic error to take a system composed of discrete components and combine them in a needless way. The mere fact that both guitar-to-midi and COSM guitars use GK/hex pickups is not really a compelling reason to bundle the two technologies together.

Well, if they were to cut features, I would much have rather had them pull out the D-Beam/Ribbon controller/V- Link than the midi converter. Inclusion of the Midi Converter in the VG series was something people had been requesting roland include for years.

Personally I like the inclusion of both functions in one box, and I think a reason why the gr55 is doing as well as it is, is due to the inclusion of the COSM modelling.  It covers up for 'missed' notes on the lower strings. While I think the midi conversion in the gr55 is improved over previous gr's, I think having the COSM added on top goes a long way in giving the overall impression of a much higher degree of tracking accuracy in the combined patches. Its almost a fake out in a sense.

What would be great is if there were different versions of the vg99 or gr55 with scaling price levels. This is probably impractical from a design/manufacturing standpoint, but would be nice to allow the user to choose the unit with the features that matter to them.

Id love a floor unit with the vg99's dual modelling chains, full alternate tuning capabilities, 2 PCM synths from the gr55, but without a D-beam or ribbon controller or v-link.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

vanceg

I'd be happy to pay for an update to the VG-99.

I'd pay quite a lot for a VG-100 with only a few more features.

I also have to agree that Roland only has itself to blame for lackluster sales in the US.  The marketing for the VG was...Sad...at best.

But I also suspect that it won't be Roland who will end up making the device I eventually use as the next evolutionary step past the VG-99. 

But hey - the VG-99 has a LOT to offer that I have yet to explore. Lots and lots.  Like most all Roland products, I just fell like "this COULD be so very great...if you just hadn't dumbed it down".



vanceg

Quote from: germanicus on July 23, 2011, 09:24:13 AM
Id love a floor unit with the vg99's dual modelling chains, full alternate tuning capabilities, 2 PCM synths from the gr55, but without a D-beam or ribbon controller or v-link.

I could do without the PCM synths in the GR-55 for sure. I just can't take those sounds. If there was something as interesting as the V-synth, then yeah, I'd be interested in "built in" synths...but that's not going to happen. I think the inclusion of Pitch to MIDI in the VG-99 was a good idea...they just botched the implementation pretty badly. One primary problem seems to be that the GK sensitivity that it useful for Pitch to MIDI seems to make the modeling sound bad, and if you set the GK sensitivity for the bet modeling sound, the Pitch to MIDI goes out the window. At least a large number of people have experienced this.

I agree with you about V-link: That's an essentially worthless technology to me. It's really a less-useful version of MIDI control of video from audio products. I can (and do) do a LOT more a LOT easier with MIDI than I can with Vlink. Silly Roland internal control standard.  Absurd.
Personally I like the dbeam and the ribbon controller...but I'm a controller nut.

aliensporebomb

I was recently at a convention where I was part of a panel describing the music technology - on the panel was a keyboardist who uses a laptop with softsynth, a sound designer for motion pictures, a keyboardist who uses a lot of hardware synths and another guitarist who uses a lot of stompboxes with a looping pedal and me.

Since all of us were gigging at the convention we all were talking to an interested audience on what our gear is and what it did.

ALL of the them became very fascinated with my gear when I mentioned one of the features is you can use your playing to control a lightshow.  The other stuff was cool but the idea if using your playing to control things like that really amazed them.

I do agree that the D-Beam and ribbon controller are items that the machine could do without (but I do like that they are there) but I definetely would want a guitar-to-midi capability myself.

VanceG's comments regarding the Guitar-to-Midi implementation on the VG99 is correct: you need the absolute sweet spot of low sensitivity settings for the GK setting in order to do both guitar-to-midi and cosm guitar sounds.   The desired side-effect of this is if they're at the sweet spot you control your dynamics on the guitar side much like a guitar thru a tube amp.  At least in the patches I've done.  And then the MIDI works decently.

As far as marketing goes - well, after the first ad for this thing I just didn't see any more.  The GR-55 I'm seeing ads in Guitar Player every month now.

Is it "it's selling, let's run a bunch of ads to sell more" in the case of the 55 or is it "The VG-99 isn't selling, why bother with ads when it's just going to sit there gathering dust?"

Why not sneak a VG-99 image into the GR-55 ad?  Nah, never happen.  "Let's not confuse them."
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Now_And_Then

 Let's look at this from the standpoint of "Why did the VG-99 sell so badly?"

Here are some of the facts I look at when I attempt to answer this question:

01) Roland has had a variety of midi-guitar boxes, including both the GI series and the GR series, all of which did well enough to warrant follow-on devices.

02) The VG-8 "first edition" was, both in relative and absolute dollars, far more expensive than the VG-99 but seemed to have sold quite well. 'Course, I don't have any actual numbers, but it was evidently good enough to prompt Roland to work on and release 2 updates (the S1 update and the EX update) and a follow-on device, the VG-88.

03) The VG-88 "v1" seems to have been, both in relative and absolute dollars, less expensive than either the VG-8 or the VG-99. It seems to have sold fairly well, if only to judge by the fact that Roland was willing to invest the necessary engineering talent and other resources for both the v2 update, and the VG-99 follow-on device.

04) Roland has released two "combo boxes" combining both effects-box and guitar-to-midi capability. The GR-55 seems to be quite successful, whereas the VG-99's sales are "terrible". Note that the GR-55's street price is roughly half that of the VG-99.

05) I must note that a Fractal Audio Axe-FX Ultra or II is over $2100 (50% more than the VG-99) and Fractal can not make them fast enough to keep them in stock - and (as far as I know) they have NO retail brick-and-mortar presence whatsoever. Obviously I have no idea what their sales figures are or how they compare to the numbers for the VG-99, but the fact that people are willing to wait in line for months to get one is telling.

Looking at all this, the conclusion at which I arrive is that the VG-99 was the wrong product at the wrong price.
A) A combination fx/midi box sells well at $700,
B) A combination fx/midi box sells very badly at $1400.
C) A dedicated fx box can sell quite well at $2100 (Axe-FX) or even more (taking into account the original VG-8 series, which were even more expensive, both in then-year dollars and current dollars.)
D) See B.

**********************************************

From my perspective, i.e. the perspective of someone who has a GR-09, a GR-33, and an AX-100 mkII, the inclusion of guitar-to-midi in the VG-99 was a complete waste of money for me. At least with the GR series, using the internal sounds was close to being plug-and-play and gives those boxes a convenience factor that is simply not present in the VG-99 - and wouldn't be there even if it were implemented correctly, which according to posts here, it isn't. (This opens up another possibility - or, if you prefer, can of worms: the VG-99 is a combination fx-pedal and guitar-to-midi device... but you can only use it as one or the other! That, right there, by itself, would be enough to make a VG-99 a bad purchase. If you wanted these capabilities, you could get close to it with a GI box and a GT-Pro or floor pedal - although you would still be missing the COSM guitars and hex-fx.

A quick look at Roland's GI and GR series, along with the fate of the Blue Chip and TerraTec versions of the Axon, and some other boxes from Yamaha et al,  and some very pricey guitar-like controllers from Synth-Ax etc seems to suggest that the ceiling for "mass-market success" for a guitar-to-midi device is in the area of $500-$600. I base this number mainly on the fact that the very effective Ax-100 mkII was a failure at a street price of roughly $750 (if I correctly remember). At $700 the GR-55 is at the very edge of the "dead zone" but the COSM technology can be seen as added value well worth the extra $100. (Or it can be seen as a COSM pedal with an added midi capability for no great increase in price.) At $1400, the perception of the midi capability being added value justifying a higher price seems not to operate.

I have no opinion regarding the D-Beam/Ribbon controller/V- Link capabilities, because I have no idea how much cost they add, although my feeling is that they are probably a lot cheaper than midi conversion. I'd have a stronger opinion, one way or the other, if I had some reliable numbers.




germanicus

I can only speak for myself, but a big selling point of the vg99 was that it included an integrated midi conversion engine. I probably would not have bought it otherwise. At the time I bought the vg99, I had  midi converters, but the promise of having an all in one, meant alot.  The fact that the midi engine was tied into its alternate tuning engine, is a huge bonus, as this meant a ton less time creating a multitude of patches (on a seperate midi converter unit) for every single tuning variation I wanted to use. I could have a seperate midi sound module with 10 or so basic goto synth patches, and the tuning I was playing in didnt matter, as the 99 took care of making sure the output was scaled to the proper tuning. The Gr55 does this for its INTERNAL pcm synths, but not otherwise. For some terribly inept reason, they decided to NOT scale the gr55's midi output relative to how you have its alternate tuning engine configured.  ::)

I think roland could benefit from some improvements to their COSM modelling, both Amp and Guitar wise. I may be mistaken, but isnt the amp modelling in both the vg99 and gr55 actually from January 2005 (gt-Pro)?

I hope whatever product path they decide to pursue (however many years away), be it a new GR hybrid like the 55, or a new VG (with or without midi conversion), that they first and foremost put considerable effort into improving the Amp modelling and (even more importantly) the guitar modelling itself.




My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4