Hands-on with Leaked Builds of Windows Blue 8.1

Started by Elantric, April 24, 2013, 02:19:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Elantric


mbenigni

#1
Not terribly impressive.  At a minimum, Win 8.x needs pinch zoom on desktop, a proper start menu, and a serious rethink as to how the onscreen keyboard on tablets addresses application and control context in desktop mode.  For the moment, ModernUI seems to exist to facilitate navigation with touchscreen, but it only serves as an effective replacement for the start menu if you have a keyboard attached, which amounts to a catch-22.  How they could roll out their own Surface Pro with Win8 as the defacto OS and not see some of these glaring shortcomings is beyond me.

musicman65

I use Win8 on a touch only tablet constantly...I carry it everywhere I go. No problems. ClassicShell is a nice addon , I agree.

bd

mbenigni

#3
Hey, bd.  Glad to hear it's working out for you.  I don't mean to give the impression that "the honeymoon is over" or anything; I'm still really impressed with the Surface Pro itself.  I'm just frustrated with Microsoft for seemingly being out of step with themselves - in terms of hyping touch computing while at the same time being totally "out of touch" with the UI necessities to make touch computing effective.

ClassicShell is an improvement but it's not perfect.  It gets confused by certain apps, certain resolutions, certain multi-display setups.  And it never should have come down to a 3rd party to have to provide such basic functionality.  Even the 8.1 improvement, according to current rumors, won't bring back the Start menu per se; it's just a button that does the exact same thing as the Start button on your keyboard, in the Charms bar, and on the Surface Pro itself.  In other words, it's redundant 3 times over.  As it stands I can scarcely see the point of the one h/w Start button on the face of the SP, and now there will be a 4th way to perform it's one nominally useful function.  Weird.

The whole "ModernUI as replacement for Start menu" concept falls apart (in absence of ClassicShell etc) because the idea is that you hit Start, then start typing the name of the app/file you want (another case of MS trying to emulate MacOS, to my chagrin).  The problem is you hit Start, and it drops you into ModernUI, where there is no way to bring up the on-screen keyboard.  If you don't have a keyboard attached, dead end.  IAnd if you always do, you might have done just as well with an ultrabook.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear any details you'd care about how you're using your Win8 tablet without keyboard.  You don't even need to give me complete sentences.  :)  Just a bullet list of what your running and how you're dealing with the tiny UI elements in desktop mode.  E.g. resolution, display/ font settings, which apps you're running, whether you're using a pen etc. etc.

Right now I'd kill for a slick, multitouch VST host designed for Win8 tablet computing.  The more I read, the more I get the impression that this will be a desktop app rather than a Modern UI app, as APIs for the latter are just too gimped - another situation MS really needs to rethink.

LeeMorant

Touch is already redundant with the leaps happening in gesture control and speech recognition.  They might have gotten away with it for a year or two if they hadn't made their ui look like it was designed by a colour blind 2 year old.

musicman65

A quick list of things to help with tablet computing.

1. Adjust your DPI and/or Fonts and Icon sizes so the traditional desktop isn't tiny. Scroll bars can be enlarged as well.

2. Classic Menu should be run in WinXP style mode so everything is list pickable. You can enlarge the fonts on it too.

3. I have a Samsung Series 7 Slate (i5 11.6") and Samsung has a nice utility called "Touch Supporter" that launches the OSK (on screen keyboard) with a 4 finger tap. You can download it and try it on your SP. It works in desktop and metro (modernUI). Hopefully they don't check for Samsung in the installer...not sure there.

4. I use a freeware utility called "StrokesPlus" that allows me to create my own touch (mouse) gestures for the desktop. I set up some simple gestures for back, forward, and launch OSK. This solves the keyboard issue if Samsung's Touch Supporter won't work.

As far as apps go...pretty much anything goes on the desktop. I do use the pen for office style apps since the menus are not finger friendly. In ModernUI (metro) I use IE10, the Mail and Calender app, and the Remote Desktop app a lot.

My tablet is my business PC for notes, sketches, remote access to the company's Terminal Server (RDP), web apps. I use VMware and run virtual machine images that have engineering apps installed on XP and Win7 64.

Its also my personal device for audio recording and my cover band's management. I am also the band leader at church and use it to manage weekly planning, scheduling, charting, etc...my life pretty much requires a device such as this. An iPad would probably work but a PC really fits my requirements much better.

Anyways, I hope this helps you unlock the power of a PC in a tablet format.

bd

Elantric

#6
QuoteI have a Samsung Series 7 Slate (i5 11.6"

Which I understand is the same machine used at Microsoft to develop Windows 8 last year.
The Samsung Series 7's speed and performance  I understand is quite good, but 4GB Memory on Any Windows machine Is restrictive for my needs and forces use of a large Page /swap file  - but with a fast SSD, might be adequate

TigerDirect has a factory refurb Samsung Series 7,  with 128GB SDD for $770 BTW (only 20 left)
I always prefer buying factory refurbs of "last years model  because they are lower cost, and been thru Quality Control Twice!
And most of the time these are simply new machines that were on "buy back" from a bankrupt store.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7750554&SRCCODE=GOOGLEBASE&cm_mmc_o=VRqCjC7BBTkwCjCECj65
Samsung XE700T1A-A04US Series 7 Slate Tablet PC - Intel Core i5-2467M 1.60GHz, 4GB DDR3, 128GB SSD, 11.6" Display, Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (Refurbished) (Refurbished)



Samsung XE700T1A-A04US Series 7 Slate Tablet PC (Refurbished)
Be the first to lay your hands on this spectacular Samsung XE700T1A-A04US Series 7 Slate Tablet PC. Invented to give you true digital satisfaction, this tablet PC comes with a powerful Intel Core i5-2467M 1.60GHz Dual-Core processor to ensure smooth delivery of your applications and multimedia files. The Samsung XE700T1A-A04US Series 7 Slate Tablet PC takes advantage of its 4GB DDR3 memory to bolster processing performance, allowing you to launch multiple applications without slowing your system. Its 128GB solid state drive provides enough space for your files and superb speed when accessing or saving data. It also has a very sleek 11.6" display that presents brilliant images with a remarkable 1366 x 768 resolution. You can even wirelessly connect this tablet computer to the Internet, so you're always updated with the latest news and feeds, thanks to its Wi-Fi connectivity.

What It Is And Why You Need It:

Intel Core i5-2467M 1.60GHz Dual-Core Processor; delivers extremely fast processing performance
4GB of DDR3 Memory; increases your PC's speed and responsiveness
128GB SSD; grants reliable storage performance
11.6" Display; provides a very responsive touchscreen display
Built-in Wi-Fi; ensures seamless wireless network connection

musicman65

Yep. That's the one I have. I have not run into issues with slowdowns due to RAM usage but most of my apps are light duty. The SSD gets a very high Windows Experience score indicating good performance. I'm sure that helps with paging if it happens.

Btw, the Lenevo Yoga is an i7 tablet with 256ssd and 8gb, 13" screen and fold back keyboard design. That might be my next tablet...it is a bit large but I've learned you get used to whatever you use and that becomes your "standard". Look at all the iPhone 4 users that swore anything bigger was impractical. Crow, anyone?

bd



mbenigni

Thanks, bd.  Any utilities that make the onscreen keyboard more consistently accessible will surely help.

So I'm curious:  what DAW are you using?  Is it safe to assume that you break out a mouse and/or larger monitor when you run the DAW?

This is where desktop pinch-to-zoom would have made all the difference, allowing me to zoom in on specific tracks or VST interfaces to tweak things as needed.  MS fell down on the job here, and I was equally disappointed in Ableton for rolling out Live 9 without any changes to their own UI to help with touchscreens.  Considering the timing, and what a forward-looking company they've always been, and how hot their user base have always been on touch screen control surfaces, it's  pretty glaring.  Cakewalk is doing some stuff with touch-enabled UI now, and I'm hoping to evaluate this soon.  After years using and evangelizing Live, I may be headed back to Sonar for this one reason.  I've dumped so much money into Ableton updates over the years, and this was the one enhancement I was really counting on.  You snooze you lose.

The Yoga is a nice machine for sure.  I had my hand on Newegg's Add to Cart button many times before finally settling on the SP instead.

Elantric

Fruity Loops 11 is supposed to be OK on Win8 Touchscreen
and is rumored to incorporate an interface for the Leap Motion Gesture Controller
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5327665

musicman65

#10
I am a Cubase user on my studio DAW but all of my field recording is live 2 track stereo with a Tascam US144MKII USB preamp or a Stereo USB mic. For that, I use Audacity, a free open source DAW. Its a toy compared to Cubase and the like but works perfectly for 2 track live stuff. It supports pinch zoom. I think Cubase does too.

I think my touch driver emulates pinch zoom on the desktop as "Ctr+Mousewheel" and desktop apps that use that will zoom in and out.

Using the "StrokesPlus" utility, you could setup a gesture that does a sendkey that zooms in or out in your particular app (if the app has keystrokes to change the zoom level).

bd



mbenigni

Good tips re: gestures and app-specific zooming features.  I'll start experimenting.  Thanks!

Elantric

#12
My three year old MultiTouch DAW Thread at FutureGuitarNow is still worth reading

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=32320.msg239538#msg239538

And pay attention to an app called Sensomusic "Usine"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6296.msg43337#msg43337

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usine
http://www.sensomusic.com/usine/
http://www.sensomusic.com/wiki2/doku.php



Native multi-touch
Usine was the first native multi-touch Audio Workstation (WIN only). We keep our technological leadership.

Of course, each visual control can receive multi-touch information that you can use in patches.


mbenigni

Thanks for the links, Steve.  I will follow up on all of them.  I actually did download Usine a few days ago after a related Google search turned it up, but at first glance it was not terribly intuitive.  I got the impression it wasn't quite what I was looking for, but that might just be a matter of getting past a learning curve.  (It's probably a vast superset of what I need, if anything.)

musicman65

#14
I read a little on the Usine website. It stated that its designed for real-time performance. I got the impression it is more of an instrument than a DAW. Am I missing something?

bd

Elantric


Elantric

But the new FL11 Studio is encouraging for Win8 Touchscreen users
http://www.image-line.com/documents/flstudio.html


http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/04/fl-studio-11-play-it-with-your-fingers-and-everything-and-everywhere-live-or-editing/


FL Studio 11 has arrived, hot on the heels of an impressive FL Studio Mobile release. The folks at Image Line have been intensely busy, but what strikes me is that you can now play FL Studio using almost anything, on almost any device. The Mobile version works on Android and touch Windows devices, not just iOS, when most folks target only Apple.

And the upgrade to FL Studio 11 is similarly flexible.

There's a clip-triggering performance mode, which already supports a range of input methods: "mouse, touch screen, typing keyboard or MIDI controller. Supports APC20/40, Launchpad, Lemur, Block, Maschine/Mikro, padKONTROL, Traktor Kontrol (and more)."

Multi-touch support works in the UI. Microsoft's gestures are supported.

Editing views have been tweaked all over the place, including lots of Playlist improvements.

And there are a number of new plug-ins, too, in typical Fruity Loops fashion:

    BassDrum percussion synth with sample layering
    GMS (Groove Machine Synth): "Multi-timbral hybrid synthesizer & FX channel lifted from Groove Machine."
    A "performance-oriented" Effector multi-effects unit: Distortion, Lo-Fi bit reduction, Flanging, Phasing, Filter (low/high pass), Delay, Reverb, Stereo panning & binaural effect, Gating, Granulizer, Vocal formant and Ring modulation effects.
    Patcher is improved with voice effects and a new UI, for saving and recalling plug-in chains.
    New key mapping works on live notes and Piano Roll editing to modify notes. (There's a color mapper for the Piano Roll, too.

The Effector module has mappings to multi-touch and controllers, and the developers say it was designed to pair with Performance Mode. So that seems the big test: will musicians start to embrace Something That Isn't Ableton, so we see a bit of FL action in live gigs? That'd be a pleasure. (It's happened before, but it certainly isn't commonplace. But I do know there are lots of FL users out in the world. Hope to see y'all play – let me know, won't you?)

And there's a lot more, like Ruby programming in Flowstone, a successor to Synthmaker, for hackers – and a formidable challenger to tools like Ableton's Max for Live.

And then, also in this Newtone vocal editor, there are some really unusual means of editing vibrato – seriously:

    "Most exciting are the new Vibrato and Warp editors. The Vibrato editor allows users to create vibrato effects from scratch with controls including start/end amount and frequency. The editor even detects existing vibrato and displays this value so users can match the singers natural tendency, if desired. The Warp editor is designed to work with mono or polyphonic material and is perfect for slicing and re-timing/quantizing drum-loops, vocal performances and is great for sounddesign experimentation. Importantly, Newtone 2 is a free update for existing customers."

A better piano roll, more note editing, and loads of performance options you can access via controllers or multi-touch – plus the ability to code your own instruments and effects in Ruby, and powerful mobile companions on any OS. I'd say FL 11 is a contender. A demo version is available. Windows-only – but I have to say, just installed Windows 8 on my MacBook via Boot Camp, and the process is pretty terrific, Mac users. (Plus you can hop into that same Windows install from your Mac via Parallels – all using the same installation, seamlessly integrated with your Mac UI.)

Have a look:

http://www.image-line.com/documents/flstudio.html

mbenigni

All food for thought.  I'll try to hunt down trial versions and evaluate.  I downloaded Sonar X2 but the required patch for their touch UI won't install over the demo version.  So if you want to demo the touch UI, I guess you're SOL.

BTW, I finally got ASIO4All running on the SP last night (chased my tail for a while before realizing I had exit LoopBe) and my Sonuus i2m arrived tonight.  If I can get this all going, and find the right VST host, I'll be in business.  :)