FTP - What a difference a fast sound card makes on a PC! ( RME BabyFace)

[Rhcole]

PCs are just not the dream platform for PC audio. We all know that. But I have big bux invested in them and use them also for business.
However, with the elimination of Firewire on consumer level boxes, it's hard to get really fast audio through them, especially via USB. I have been using a PreSonus and a couple of old Fast Track Pros for audio and could get away with it until the FTP came along.

But no longer. Too much latency, even when running with a high-end box.

So, I bit the bullet and bought an RME Babyface. Pricey! But it promised near Firewire speeds over USB.

Got it. It delivers as promised. Smokes my other interfaces. What, maybe 2X, 3X, or even 4X faster? The FTP is now almost as fast on a USB PC as running straight into a hardware synth with the Kenton USB converter.

I hate Windows 8, though, not upgrading anytime soon. I may end up switching brands to Apple unless MS makes some BIG CHANGES to their current platform. Win 7 or die!

[Elantric]

Good choice!

I have an old 2007 era WinXP DAW Tower based on Intel Pentium Core 2 Quad  Q6600, that has a RME HammerFall HDSP 9652 which I was using to run Reaper - which always was leaner, meaner, faster, lower latency than any other Windows DAW app.

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_hdsp_9652.php


Wonderful card  -but must use my external ADAT A/D and D/As  - so its a "clock sync monster"  and a bit fiddly - but low latency!

I got sidetracked using my Firewire MOTU 828MKII and still need to swap out my RME HammerFall HDSP 9652 card out from my old WinXP machine and put in into my 2009 MacPro 8 core Tower with 12 GB DDR2 ECC RAM.

I was ready to upgrade the Ram in my   MacPro  - but got sticker shock when back in 2012 I saw that matched sticks of Mushkin or Crucial  DDR2 ECC Registered  RAM  that would take me up to 32 GB would actually cost over $2K - which was more $$ than buying a refurbished 2011 iMac 27" I7 3.4GHz Quad core at the Apple Store

Read  Primate Labs' Mac benchmark chart - to get educated on the performance of latest Macs
http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks

By contrast, the DDR3 32GB DDR3 RAM upgrade for iMac was dirt cheap (under $200) add a USB Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Inteface ($300 as a  restock at Full Compass) works very well - equally as good or better than my 2009 MacPro 

http://www.amazon.com/Focusrite-Scarlett-Interface-Microphone-Preamplifiers/dp/B00AZLA9VY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404437881&sr=8-1&keywords=focusrite+18i20

More geek computer talk is here:

New Computers for Music
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6104.0

[fusionman]

Hello Rhcole and Elantic!

Even with an top of the top Pc like an I7 with 8 or 16 gbs of ram and an ssd? Is the soundcard even more important than a faster processor?

Thanks

[Elantric]

Is the soundcard even more important than a faster processor?

Its always about the sound card and A/D and Low latency ASIO driver

I have seen a product with poor ASIO driver ( like Roland GR-55)  make the latest Windows PCS run like a dog with high latency.

There are a few who say  - "I use ASIO4ALL and I'm Happier" - but further study reveals its 16 bits and poor dynamic range  / SNR  - there are so many variables with some USB drivers not playing well with some intel chipset , while others do not work with AMD CPUs  - while others ( like Presonus) work better with AMD  - its a nightmare, that finally forced me to pull the plug on considering using Windows for my future projects 

Windows 8 was the nail in  coffin for me

[Rhcole]

Fusionman,

I can simply give you my experiences. My low-end PC is a Fujitsu laptop with only a dual-core i3 clocking at (I think) 2.3G and with 4G of RAM. When I bought it Spectrasonics rated the minimum PC to run Omnisphere at 2.2G with 2G of RAM. They have since upgraded their minimum requirements above my laptop.

Running Omnisphere with a Fast Track Pro, the system "worked" but I abandoned it as it wasn't a pleasing experience. Poor latency, glitches, muggy audio. I also tried an Echo card, which was a terrible mistake. Worst $200 I've spent in a long time.

RME writes their own ASIO drivers and the Babyface had rave reviews. It's a portable soundcard, so I share it with other computers. Costs $750 though ($650 at B&H!).

The net is that my underpowered laptop runs Omnisphere glitch-free, crystalline audio, with low latency. The soundcard made my laptop a viable option even though it's below spec.

So I now believe that the soundcard may be THE MOST IMPORTANT element of the PC.

[fusionman]

Thanks for the answer!! Best regards

[Rhcole]

BTW, beware of older silver Babyfaces... they are reported to have some issues. The silver BFs are $50 cheaper than the blue, with no supposed difference in the guts.
But a bit of time spent looking over a search engine will show that silver BFs from the recent past had purported bugs.

I could have bought a silver BF on eBay for less than $600 used. No thanks.

If you buy silver, buy new unless it's a recent release.

[fusionman]

Thanks Rhcole.  Yes, in my new Lenovo i7 laptop computer with 8 gbs of ram and an fusion drive, the pod hd drivers didn't work well and the latency is horrible.....



Have problems with the asio driver of the rme when running multiple apps at once?

The new silver Rme's Babyface are ok?, right?

Thanks

[shawnb]

I'd argue that the mobo is the most important component on a pc...   Lots of latency issues are waits at that level.   Get a "name brand" mobo (Asus...), & avoid the major pc manufacturers who make their own (crappy) mobos.

A good audio device = good sound quality
A good mobo = fewer issues with latency

[Elantric]

When reviewing a Windows PC for audio use  - I used to be able to walk up to any laptop at Best Buy and type "MSINFO32" and get a report on any Shared IRQs (Every PC motherboard [including laptops] employs a different topology for IRQs, some work better than others for Audio ) - I would try to find the laptop with dedicated IRQs (Interrupt Request Lines) for the USB ports, and steer clear of Laptops where the same IRQ was shared by  USB  and the Video Card, or ethernet PHY (Physical Interface IC)

Lots of clicks and pops can be traced back to a motherboard with shared IRQs between USB and a Video Card.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrupt_request





Use HWINFO64 for a detailed report
http://www.hwinfo.com/

[Rhcole]

Ha! Found out my laptop has only a dual-core i3 @ 2.27 G per core. Positively mouse-sized by modern standards with only 4 G. Omnisphere is presently spec'ed for Win 7/8 at requiring either: multi-core processor with at least 2.4 G and 8G recommended or a 3G single core with the same RAM.

And Omnisphere runs GREAT on the Fujitsu. RME says in their manual that their card takes some of the tasks from the CPU for a lighter load on the computer. Gee, thanks, needed that.

(BTW as an aside, Fujitsu makes expensive laptops but boy do they last. I have an 8 year old XP tablet that WON'T DIE. Still use it for audio from time to time.)

Fusionman, what I read indicates that new silver units are now up to spec. I have alternated the Babyface between computers with similar improvements in all cases. Can't speak to the more esoteric hardware stuff like the other guys, if it works it works, if not, I post and Elantric explains it. 
Haven't tried multi-apps with the BF yet though, especially on my laptop I would expect gears to shoot out of it and oil leaks or something...

[fusionman]

Thanks Rhcole, but i think the Rme is too expensive for me...Do you know another interface less expensivethat Works well with vsti's?

What about the Steinberg ur22 or Komplete audio 6? They're on another league i think...

Thanks

[Rhcole]

Fusionman,

You're right, the RME is expensive. And the Babyface is the least expensive sound card they sell!
I researched other cards, but can't speak of the cards you mention. What I did was search "low latency audio card Windows" and then I also scoured for good and bad reviews of the products. This actually stopped me from buying a couple of the cards that seemed like good options due to buggy drivers and other issues. Buggy drivers are what made my Echo card such a big failure for my laptop, so I was extra sensitive about that issue. It should have been much faster than USB because it was an Express PCMCIA, but their drivers and ASIO were crap.

Once bitten twice shy. Good luck with your search.

[fusionman]

Thanks Rhcole and Elantric for your answers! 
The fact is that my Pod Hd Desktop can't decrease the buffer more than to 128kbt (is an Usb 2.0 interface) and with the tripleplay when i Play vsti's the latency on the six and five strings are not good for playing Basslines or drum patterns....

And also the line 6 drivers doesn't works well with the 64 bits version of the tripleplay app...

Months ago, my Tc electronic desktop konnekt 6 Works a Little better (64kb on the buffer) but my desktop made clicks and pops....but it was firewire and my laptop only has usb...

Would you recommend something else? Elantric: what about your Pod Hd as an audio interface with Mac os? Works well with vsti's?

Thanks for your help

[jassy]

The best source with very serious information about that is without a doubt http://www.dawbench.com/audio-int-lowlatency2.htm

[germanicus]

Im using windows 7 at the moment. Wasnt enthralled with windows 8 (which is on my laptop).  However, for audio, cakewalk reported substantial performance gains with Win 8 over win 7 with their Sonar software.

http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applications/

Can anyone verify/refute these results?

[jassy]

I'm using windows 7 at the moment. Wasnt enthralled with windows 8 (which is on my laptop).  However, for audio, cakewalk reported substantial performance gains with Win 8 over win 7 with their Sonar software.

http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applications/

Can anyone verify/refute these results?

I do not pretend to be categorical but after reading many threads on the subject I think the general conclusion is that win8 is very similar to win7, as far as audio performance is concerned.
I remember Cakewalk also said something similar when the 64-bit arrived to operating systems and DAWs, but then the reality was quite different and there was not much improvement (aside the fact that we can use much more memory with 64 bit).
I don't use Cakewalk, I use Cubase 7.5 and tried briefly with Win8 in my laptop and performance was similar, maybe with Cakewalk products perhaps theres some different.