RC300: Could use some help isolating a problem....

Started by Syph, November 15, 2012, 04:53:12 PM

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Syph

hey y'all!
I have a pretty big ask here, so feel free to ignore at and get a beer instead....

I have been getting some weird freezes on my RC300, and I suspect that this is a firmware issue. I have tried contacting roland about it, but basically they just want me to take the unit it for "repairs". I did this once before, had no looper for 6+ weeks, get a new one shipped out just to find out it was a firmware issue. Not keen to repeat that. Nope.

If anyone has the time to test these settings for a good few hours it would be a god send to me! but like I said, I know thats a huge ask, and I really don't expect it of anyone. But if someone here can manage the time, well, I dont think I could properly express my gratitude in polite society!

I am using the RC mostly for busking right now, and on average I will get between 1 to 4 freezes through a nights playing, about 6 hours or so. (average 1 freeze every 2 hours or so) The freeze *typically* happens when I come down from a big idea to start again, but i have observed it in a few other situations. here is the main one.... (track numbers are examples here, i eventually use every combo possible but i cant list that easily)

tracks 1, 2 and 3 are recorded (and probably overdubbed)

i will stop/clear track 1 and 2, and change rhythm guide using ctr 1.

hit stop on track 3 (fade out)

while track 3 is fading, i will record a new idea to track 1.

when i hit the play/rec to trigger playback/overdub of track 1 the unit becomes non responsive, displays "too busy" message.

reboot.

patch settings

single track play mode : off
overdub mode
rec mode : stereo
tempo: 103bpm
fade time: 50
auto rec : off
track change : loop end
reverb level :100

rec pdl act: rec ->overdub

tracks 1-3 settings;
tempo sync off
loop sync on
rec level 90
stop mode fade out
measure set to free

rhythm track on

assigns
1
target: FX type
min : delay
max : distortion
source : exp1
src mode: moment
2
traget : RHY pattern
min : rock 3
max: kick &hat 1
source : ctl1
src mode : toggle
3
target : FX type
min : slicer
max : filter
source : ctl3
src mode: toggle

To anyone that made it this far, you. are. awesome.  8) YEAAH!


Mrchevy

#1
My brain freezes just thinking about all that ;D

SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE...... Rang  :o
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Syph

Inserts rounds of applause

...but then feels self conscious because my text doesn't scroll..  :'(

shawnb

Are you on the latest firmware?

Firmware v1.02 addressed a 'too busy' problem:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6602.msg45523#msg45523

Please confirm you're current.  The links there will show you how to validate your firmware rev.

Let us know,

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Syph

#4
haha, i got the same firmware question from Roland Aus, which was much more amusing from them because well... 1.03... roland... being up to date with the products... yeah...!

Been on 1.03 for quite a while now (maybe a month or more? hard to remember)
Firmware 1.02 address the issue i was having on my first RC300 that led to me waiting for new stock to come into the country for 6+ weeks! It addresses a single track play mode glitch. And of course once I got my second RC300 I figured out how to get the desired behaviour, so I turned off single track play mode and BAM! issues!

Part of the reason I have waited a while to bring this issue up was incase 1.03 fixed it, but alas... then i got lazy for a few weeks...

Considering its a rather infrequent glitch as stated earlier, if anyone wants more detail (or clarification of anything) before testing PM me, we can maybe do a skype call or something. There is no real rush to sort this, but the sooner the better for my sanity and for trying to avoid sending this back to roland... again... Not to mention the less of your time I waste the better ;D

Roland Aus has recommended re-saving my patch every hour or so in case I was loading too much info into the tempory storage, but I have managed to get a freeze on a clean  boot, no settings changed, recorded 3 tracks, deleted 2, freeze... soooo!!! yeah.... Not to mention if you look through my patch settings you will see the only things I change through a performance are assigned to my feet button thingies.

Damn, got ranting again....

Thanks in advance Shawn, its much appreciated :)
I know advance technically isn't accurate because you have already helped, but I like to think you will do something wonderfull  :o

I need to work on my sense of humour some more...

Threeleggedyoyo

#5
Thinking... processing... thinking... not sleeping... brain cramping... processing...


I'm guessing it has something to do with having loop sync on but tempo sync off. I'm kind of abstractly guessing at how some of this works, but hear me out anyway...

As I understand it, loop sync means phrases start at the same time, and tempo sync means they share the same tempo.

So in your setting with tempo off and loop sync on, that means the only thing the unit is doing to try to match your new recording on Track 1 (in your example) to the others is to put the beginning to align with the other tracks' beginning.

Now, if there IS no other track, it just puts it wherever.
And if there IS another, then it knows to match it.
But if you're fading out, you're somewhere in between, and you're confusing the crap out of it. It doesn't know where the track start/stop is, since it's no longer at a single moment.

Alternatively, it may have something to do with the RC-300's temporary memory, like Boss suggested. On the 50 at least, the LED blinks when it is fading out, similar to the way the RC-300 blinks when it performs an Undo. I think this has something to do with accessing some temporary memory.

Going from Record to play or overdub would also involve the temporary memory. An Overdub involves temporary memory since it can be Undone, but it is cemented once you Overdub a second time. Rec also probably accesses temporary memory since it has to keep the loop in mind before it knows how long it is supposed to be.

All conjecture, but the concept I'm thinking of is simple: Doing a fade-out involves temporary memory, and so does ending a new Rec cycle. Apparently doing both at once has the potential to overwhelm the unit and cause it to crash.

The fact that it is trying to maintain multiple tempos at the same time (not to mention trying to determine the tempo of your new loop) could also be contributing to the overload. At the moment of your described crash, you're asking the unit to do all these at once:

-- Play a previous track.
-- Fade out the previous track.
-- Finish recording.
-- Play back.
-- Begin overdub.
-- Figure out the tempo of the new loop.
-- Match the beginning of the new loop with a previous loop that is ending at an indeterminate moment (I think this one is probably key).
-- Any effects you have turned on (Delay and Reverb might be particularly taxing).
-- Sounds like you have the rhythm track on, too? How does it even know the tempo to play with your non tempo-sync and FREE measure settings... aasgoihgwweg

Yeah, that could crash something.

Does the glitch still happen when you are in Rec ---> Play mode instead of Rec ---> overdub? I would think the latter would be harder on temporary memory.

What are the other situations with glitches? Looking for similarities could help us pin down the exact issue(s).

Do you have any other effects on? Delay would complicate the issue.


Syph

I can relate to those suspicions, but I have to head out for a nights work now....

I'll be in tough after work, or tomorrow night (depends on how brutal the crowds are tonight)

Take care y'all!

Syph

alrighty then! its 5 in the morning here, and i just got back from a 7 hour busk with about 15km bike ride there and back, so I am a little delirious, but here goes!

Loop sync and tempo sync don't quite work the way you may expect, thank the brilliance of the translating looper manuals here. I should also point out that I have the rhythm guide on, so all my loop tempos are forced to the rhythm tempo (more on this below)

With the rhythm on, tempo sync off, and loop sync on it does the opposite of what we could rightly expect. Loop sync DOESN'T align the start of the loops, but it does keep the tempo synced and quantises my recordings to the nearest bar (this may be different behaviour if the rhythm was off, will check later!). Also, with tempo sync off it no longer forces the loops to have a fraction relationship in regards to loop lengths, i.e. i can have a 1 bar, 3 bar, and 5 bar loop all running in sync, but having seamless playback of all, no gaps. ah, polyrhythmic I think would be an apt word for this behaviour....

Now add into this that the Rhythm is on, so the RC should never have to calculate raw tempo, just calculate measures (set to free)

I hadn't thought about the fade out taking temp memory, but thinking about it now it does seem possible that its not just simply turning down the volume but perhaps its "bit crushing" it down. If thats the case then that would take a little processing power, but it does seem like a bit of a... hmm... difficult way to do it...

The rec ---> overdub is an interesting point, because I have noticed that I often get the freeze when I go from rec to dub, but I will come back to that when I have the time in a few days to play with it solidly at home. For what I do I NEED straight to overdub, so I wasn't able to test it out whilst out last night.

In regards to FX I feel like that should't be such a burden on the unit since the midi clock is locked to the rhythm guide tempo, though if its all happening on one chipset (as opposed to a dedicated "little" FX chip) it is more load although I haven't noticed changing between different FX has any affect on the chance of a freeze....

Oh, and I have the reverb ALWAYS set to 100.... woops :P

The freeze really does always seem to be around the rec dub and play moments of a new track after clearing the last....

The common things between events are;

Rhythm on (just thought i should stress that this is ALWAYS on)
Have cleared at least 1 track
Pressing rec/dub/play on a new track
There is often a fade happening somewhere around here, but not always

FX are mostly on when it freezes, either with a delay or the natural OD... its hard to remember though since my lead tone and my bass tone both use the OD as a compressor/solo boost....

I dont feel like I am smashing that many settings though through the units temp memory. Other than selecting a drum beat or an effect, the only parameter I change is the rhythm level (and even that I often just save to the patch so its ready for next time)

Thanks for the help, I can't tell you how good it is to actually get some of this out there instead of just thinking in loops all day...   ;D IRONY! YAY!

And with that level of excitement from that little pun, I think I should go to bed. By the end of the day I should have a little video to upload, may help get some context going for this thread...

(waves)

Threeleggedyoyo

Well if you are always using the rhythm guide anyway, and quantize is on, why bother turning Tempo sync off? Shouldn't make much difference as far as I can tell looking at the manual. I bet it would alleviate the glitches... but it's just a guess.

As for why the effects matter, it's because Delay is basically a looper unto itself. I've used both the GT-6 and A3's Delay along with the RC-50 now, and both have difficulties with the midi sync when no other effects do (though the GT-6 gets on much better at it). I believe this is because it's the only effect where the rhythm is kept track of retroactively on the repeats. So it has a tough time if there is even a bit of a warble in the midi clock, which the RC units are wont to do when they're thinking hard. Regardless, Delay seems to tax Midi functionality in a way that other effects do not. Reverb might take some memory too since it has to keep the sound going, albeit not in relation to a tempo.

I wouldn't expect it to be a problem, but it's one more piece of the puzzle to see if turning it off solves anything.

Syph

:o !!DON'T TRUST THE MANUAL!!  :o
I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit... it's the only way to be sure....
I think there were bad translation issues regarding the names of Tempo and Loop sync options, or perhaps they just change function depending on whats on and off etc...

Anyway, the short version is if i turn tempo sync on then I get the fractional measure , each loop has to be a multiple or fraction of the other loops. This is the common behaviour I see from a lot of loopers. In this model we can;

Record a 2 bar loop
Record the next loop as a multiple of the first loop, i.e. 2, 4, 6, 8 etc bars....

With tempo sync off I can be seamlessly looping 1 bar, 3 bars, and... say 7 bars.

Record a 3 bar loop
Record next loop with 5 bars
Record 3rd loop with 19 bars


There is one other benefit to having tempo sync off that once seems to be backwards to the manual.

With these settings I am not having the starts of 3 loops forced together. Here is a bad attempt at a graph showing a 2 bar, 3 bar and 4 bar loop being recorded and played together with these settings.

Time is on the X axis (horizontal), with "T" being 1st beat of a bar, and the "-" being other beats. This is in 4/4. Loops 1, 2 and 3 are on the Y axis (vertical). "[" denotes the start of a loop, and "]" is for the end. the length of each loop is written within the parenthesis.


         1               2                3               4                5                6               7                8                9               10              11              12              13              14
  Bar  T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T
       
1       [2 bar loop                   ][2 bar loop                  ][2 bar loop                   ][2 bar loop                   ][2 bar loop                  ][2 bar loop                   ][2 bar loop
2                                                           [3 bar loop                                    ][3 bar loop                                    ][3 bar loop                                    ][3 bar loop
3                                                                                                                                [ 4 bar loop                                                    ][ 4 bar loop             
Loops

The process goes like this;

Hit rec on track 1, record a 2 bar loop. at end of loop cycle to play mode by hitting rec/dub and go to overdub mode, press once more to take the track to play mode.*

Hit rec on track 2, record a 3 bar loop. at end of loop cycle through to play mode (as on loop 1)

Hit rec on track 3, record a 4 bar loop. End of loop, cycle to play mode.

*in this example looper is set to rec--->dub--->play


Now, I like to think I did a good enough job at that graph for you to be able to see that loop lengths are quantised, BUT!

-The loops have not synced their start locations to each other.
-Note the seamless loop playback, no gaps (no silence while we wait for loops to come around again and all start together).

This has one very practical application, even when do "fractional" length loops, I can record a 4 bar riff, then record a 4 bar melody over the top. Now, to cope with the more standard looper settings (like loop and tempo sync on) normally we would have to either;

A) have the second track recording as soon as the first one ended so that the loops line up, but this often causes things like delay to get split over multiple tracks (which is VERY problematic by my accounts)

OR

B) Wait for the whole 4 bars to go around, then start recording to loop 2.

Not doing this could cause horrific loop down time, because with the measures set to free it will start interpreting a 4 bar loop that starts on the second bar of the prerecorded as a 7 bar loop.... dirty... dirty loops... (think Futurama, "You! Why is there yoghurt in this cap?!")

With these settings though, we can start recording on bar 2 with another bar loop, and have beautifull, seamless payback.. AND NO STUPID 7 BAR LOOP WITH THE STARTS BEING AUTO ALLIGNED!! (rage)

example; loop sync on, tempo sync off behaviour with 4 bar loops, measures set to free

         1               2                3               4                5                6               7                8                9               10              11              12              13              14
  Bar  T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T   -   -   -   T
       
1       [      4 bar loop                              ][      4 bar loop                              ][      4 bar loop                             ][      4 bar loop                              ][      4 bar loop
2                                                                            [      4 bar loop                              ][      4 bar loop                              ][      4 bar loop                              ]
3                                                                                                                                                 [      4 bar loop                              ][      4 bar loop       

I need to stop typing, I started ranting again... Need cider....

Oh, though I didn't get a video from my busking audition today (sorry!), it was terrible weather and such, so i am going to do some (unpaid) film score work (it has zombies!) and then i'll try and make a little 5 minute video.....  Also, I only got an hours sleep.... It may explain my ranty-ness....

Threeleggedyoyo

Hmm, ok. Looks like there aren't alternate track settings to perform what you want.

How about this.

What if you set the EXP pedal to be the volume of the "fade out" track, and then faded it manually while you start the next loop, and then did a clear after?

Not an ideal solution, but would probably avoid the glitch.


Syph

Nice, nice...

I'll add it to the testing list! This list is getting longer everyday...

Dude! thanks man :)

shawnb

Quote from:  aliensporebomb
Sigh.  The infinity is looking more attractive every day.

This sure seems to be a bug.   I'd report it to Roland, we've learned they do respond when given good data.   

One thing to realize in this scenario, we have going:
  -  FX
  -  Rhythm (drums) going
  -  3 stereo tracks with overdubs; followed by deleting tracks on the fly and recording new tracks
  -  An auto fade out operation

How many loopers even have these features?   

Yes, the RC300 has some quirks, as this thread (and others) show, especially with odd loop lengths & apparently when using many of these features as the same time.   

And apparently a manual and UI that have swapped the definition of loop sync & tempo sync...
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Threeleggedyoyo

So since the manual isn't trustworthy... can somebody plainly summarize what Tempo sync and Loop sync ACTUALLY do? And is it reversed from the 50?  ??? ???

shawnb


All:  Has anybody reproduced this issue, or is Syph the only one who has seen it?   

Syph:   This sure feels like the issue described in the 1.03 firmware upgrade.  If nobody else can reproduce the issue, I'd try a factory reset.  My thinking is that since you experienced the issue before the 1.03 upgrade, it may have left your rc300's internal hard drive in a questionable state; if so, this could explain why you still have the issue intermittently even after the 1.03 upgrade.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Syph, I have messed about for a good 45 minutes with your settings, recording, deleting, switching, dubbing...  No joy I am afraid.  I tried before and after the 1.03 upgrade.  I wondered if perhaps you were accidentally double tapping stop occasionally, thereby issuing tempo change commands, but no "joy" there either.

I plan to use similar settings for the next track I write, so perhaps I will come across it then.  What a massive annoyance for you - I hope it hasn't disturbed your busking too seriously.  Obviously let us know if you get closer to defining the cause of this error.

Threeleggedyoyo

Quote from: Hopkins on November 18, 2012, 04:43:18 PM
Syph, I have messed about for a good 45 minutes with your settings, recording, deleting, switching, dubbing...  No joy I am afraid.  I tried before and after the 1.03 upgrade.  I wondered if perhaps you were accidentally double tapping stop occasionally, thereby issuing tempo change commands, but no "joy" there either.

I plan to use similar settings for the next track I write, so perhaps I will come across it then.  What a massive annoyance for you - I hope it hasn't disturbed your busking too seriously.  Obviously let us know if you get closer to defining the cause of this error.

Not to trivialize the problem, but the accidental double tap is actually plausible. When I first tried the RC-300 in the store I swore that Phrase 1 couldn't go straight to overdub like the others. Turns out I was double tapping and had to put a little more thought into the motion until I adjusted. It seems to be a little easier to do with the smaller pedal buttons vs the ones on the 50. It can happen if your foot is just a little shaky.

Try being extra deliberate about hitting the pedals and see if the problem still happens.

Syph

#17
Alrighty then, reverse chronological order....

Threeleggedyoyo - The double tap has happened to me before, but it never causes a freeze. Because I have tempo sync off on my settings, the tracks all stay at 103bpm, and the drums bounce off to the new tempo (sounds awful!)

Hopkins - Thanks for the effort, I am glad to hear you didn't have any issues there! Lets all hope it stays that way... :)

shawnb -  I think I have tried a factory reset since I updated to 1.03, but I will run it again to be sure. It would be nothing less than embarrassing at this stage if thats my issue!! (in case it works, thanks in advance!)

Considering it sounds like I have been bagging on the RC300 I feel I should take the time to say;

This is an AMAZING tool! SERIOUSLY! WOW!!!

If you don't believe me, I made this to demonstrate what using one patch on the RC300 can do....


All FX and sounds (drums, loops, FX) are all coming from the RC300 and straight into my recorder (with exception of the reverse delay stuff, thats a DD7 pedal inline)

I love this pedal!

Edit; Also, Shawnb, sorry for the double post of the video, i just thought i really should show its capabilities after I have been going on about defects for bit...

Hopkins


Threeleggedyoyo

Syph, I'm having a difficult time enjoying your video because it makes me feel so inferior!  :-[

You rock dude.

Mrchevy

Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

shawnb

Flipping amazing performance, Syph!   

(And why are you apologizing to/thanking me, I'm just another forum member, not a moderator!)
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Syph

Haha! good point there shawnb, for some reason I did have it in my head that you were a moderator! oops  ::)

Though I still feel it was warranted even as just an acknowledgement to your points made in the looper video thread....

Glad you guys like the video! :D It was more of just a little demo than a real performance, and its been kind of touching how positively it has been received! (seriously, thanks guys! means a lot to me hey... (need a blushing emoticon here...) It has been ALOT of practice and work to get it to that stage, at minimum about 12+ hours performance a week whilst busking, plus the home time figuring it all out and junk, and I am really excited to see where it goes once I get the GT100 integrated into my busking rig!!

Threeleggedyoyo

Quote from: Syph on November 19, 2012, 10:27:47 PM
Haha! good point there shawnb, for some reason I did have it in my head that you were a moderator! oops  ::)

Though I still feel it was warranted even as just an acknowledgement to your points made in the looper video thread....

Glad you guys like the video! :D It was more of just a little demo than a real performance, and its been kind of touching how positively it has been received! (seriously, thanks guys! means a lot to me hey... (need a blushing emoticon here...) It has been ALOT of practice and work to get it to that stage, at minimum about 12+ hours performance a week whilst busking, plus the home time figuring it all out and junk, and I am really excited to see where it goes once I get the GT100 integrated into my busking rig!!

Seriously fantastic performance. Makes me want to hurry up on the "make videos" phase of my master plan to destroy the musical universe.

Having a job sure is a double edged sword. Money for toys, no time to play with said toys.  :-\

Cricket

@ Syph re:  your vid...

Yeah!

Stumbled on this thread looking for something else but... yeah.   Really cool.   Pretty much confirming what my next new toy needs to be.

Well done.