Online Real time jam - JamKazam

Started by Mrchevy, September 02, 2014, 09:50:44 PM

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Mrchevy

Has anyone tried it

http://www.jamkazam.com/
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric


Mrchevy

Work the last few days has not allowed much time to investigate more but it looks like both these, JamKazam and Ohm studio, are similar but seem to serve different needs. JamKazam for musicians to actually play together in real time as in rehearsal or just jamming, but somewhat limited to a more localized situation ( aprox. a 500 mile radius) due to latency which they say is about 10ms. They claim this has proved to be acceptable to play in sync without any noticeable latency. Ohm studio seems to be geared more towards recording and collaboration were tracks are done and people can work together in real time from anywhere in the world but not actually play together because the latency would be a sync problem. Basically an online DAW of quality that people can work online together with. Very cool but serving slightly different purposes. I am eager to look into both further. Damn job, always getting in the way of things ;)
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#3
When everyone has a Fibre HIGH bandwidth Internet with equal up/down speed is the only way to achieve 10 ms latency.
Most of the "live jam music collaboration networks work with loops and you play on the 2ND pass through.


Mrchevy

Quote from: Elantric on September 03, 2014, 07:35:38 AM
When everyone has a Fibre HIGH bandwidth Internet with equal up/down speed is the only way to achieve 10 ms latency.
Most of the "live jam music collaboration networks work with loops and you play on the 2ND pass through.


Steve, could you elaborate a little more on this and how it works?
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#5
QuoteSteve, could you elaborate a little more on this and how it works?

Rather like Sonoma Wireworks RiffLink ( since 2007)

http://www.sonomawireworks.com/rifflink.php

QuoteRiffWorks and its built-in on-line collaboration tool, "RiffLink" are ostensibly recording products and, as such, aren't really designed to facilitate 'live jamming sessions' where everyone can hear everyone else whilst they're playing.
You can certainly have two, three or four people all recording on the same track at the same time. However, you'll only hear everyone else's input after you've finished recording yours, they've finished theirs and then you hit 'playback' - if that makes sense. smile
Those of us blessed enough to be a part of the "RiffLink Junkies" are spread far and wide around the world and often agree to be on-line at the same time to record together. The 'chat' facility in RiffLink is realtime so you can feedback to other players there and then, agree to add, change or delete things then make those amendments with further immediate feedback.
It's a very creative and productive process, all made possible by RiffWorks.
Cheers!
Scott

RiffLink Online Collaboration
CREATE SONGS ONLINE WITH MUSICIANS WORLDWIDE USING RIFFWORKS
Since 2007, musicians worldwide have been using RiffWorks' RiffLink online music collaboration to record songs together (at the same time or different times) and chat while their at it! Join thousands of RiffWorks users, and start jamming and creating songs online with them today! No matter how far apart they live, what time zone they are in, or whether they are using MacOS or Windows, an unlimited number of musicians can collaborate on a song using RiffWorks recording software. (What you Should Know before using RiffLink) Listen to Recent RiffLink Collaborations on RiffWorld!

As a Riff layer is recorded, it instantly streams to other players. As the Riff loops, players can add layers to the Riff without latency or distance issues. Contributions are saved on the RiffLink server, and can be opened later in RiffWorks to continue recording.

RiffLink is an add-on service for RiffWorks recording software and requires RiffWorks T4 v2.6.6 (free) or RiffWorks Standard v2.6.6 ($129), a RiffLink membership, a reliable broadband internet connection (DSL or Cable), a modern computer with at least 4GB RAM, and an understanding of these RiffLink usage tips. Get 60 days of RiffLink free with RiffWorks Standard, then it's $10 for 30 days, or $60 for a year.

RiffWorks RiffLink Create Song Collaboration


"RiffWorks allows people to work together on multitrack recording projects in "what feels like real-time" using a loop-based system, with "no worries about latency or distance," using an add-on called RiffLink that enables online collaboration." Wired.com

RIFFLINK FEATURES & TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Many users can collaborate on one song at separate times.
Many users can collaborate on separate songs at the same time and at separate times.
Recording with up to 4 people at the same time on the same song may be possible under the right circumstances (What you Should Know before using RiffLink).
Public and Invite-Only collaboration options available.
Layers (tracks) show up as soon as they are finished streaming, and are always perfectly in sync.
Each layer is instantly streamed to other current users, and automatically saved on the server for those who wish to contribute later.
No issues with latency or with distance between users because, as a Riff layer is recorded, it instantly streams to other players. Then, as the Riff loops, players can add layers to the Riff.
Chat with others in RiffWorks' RIFFLINK screen.
Mac and Windows users can collaborate together seamlessly (Win XP SP 2, SP 3, Vista, Win 7, Mac OS X 10.4 and 10.5 and 10.6).
Variable bit-rate compression (approx. 6:1)
Allows 6-12 simultaneously streaming layers in and out on median performance CPU
Add-on InstantDrummer sessions can be used, and will be heard by you and other collaborators as they stream from the RiffWorld.com server as needed.
Install RiffWorks with your username on up to 3 computers (Mac and/or Windows) to access your collaborations from your home, work and studio.
Both RiffWorks T4 and RiffWorks Standard allow you to MIX your RiffWorks song to a single WAV or OGG file, as well as RiffCast your song to RiffWorld.com for MP3 and OGG download links, embeddable song players, community comments and more.
RiffLink requires RiffWorks T4 v2.6.6 (free recording software) or RiffWorks Standard v2.6.6 ($129), a RiffLink membership, a reliable broadband internet connection (DSL or Cable), a modern computer with at least 4GB RAM, and an understanding of these RiffLink usage tips.
RiffWorks System Requirements
WHY RIFFLINK IS BETTER THAN ALTERNATIVE METHODS OF COLLABORATION
Alternatively, you can collaborate by sending song files back and forth over the internet to work on the file one person at a time, but that isn't as interactive as RiffLink. Or you could use other "real-time" jamming software that may have one or more problems like these: latency issues, no one to play with "live" for long stretches of time, doesn't save your song on a server for collaborators to work on later, requires you to live near collaborators, doesn't include an invite-only option, or is expensive. RiffLink solves those problems, and makes collaborating simple, productive, social, convenient, affordable and fun!

INSTANTDRUMMER IN COLLABORATIONS
All versions of RiffWorks include the built-in InstantDrummer that plays tempo-synced drum loops from Drums On Demand, Discrete Drums, Submersible Music, Sonic Reality, and Drummerheads. Play along with InstantDrummer sessions by famous drummers like Alan White, Jason McGerr, John Tempesta, Lonnie Wilson, Matt Sorum, Sly Dunbar, Terry Bozzio, Tony Braunagel. If a user does not own the InstantDrummer sessions that another user has included in the song, the drums are streamed to all the users automatically.

ENTER RIFFRUMBLE SONG CONTESTS
There are RiffRumble song contests several times a year sponsored by companies like Line 6, IK Multimedia, Taylor Guitars, Schecter Guitars, Seymour Duncan, Dean Markley and others. Often you can submit your choice of either a song you've recorded on your own or a collaboration. About RiffRumble Song Contests

MORE ABOUT RIFFLINK
Listen to Recent RiffLink Song Collaborations on RiffWorld
Guide to RiffLink Online Music Collaboration
What You Should Know Before You Use RiffLink 0 Useage Tips
Is Online Jamming in Realtime Possible?

Elantric

#6
QuoteSteve, could you elaborate a little more on this and how it works?

Or like NinJam
http://www.cockos.com/ninjam/index.php#Downloads

QuoteNijam is NOT realtime but it does a good job of creating the illusion of being realtime. What you are actually hearing is a delayed stream synched to the metronome.
From Wikipedia:
"NINJAM is a collaborative musical jamming software system which has made the concept of "virtual-time" jamming (as opposed to "real-time") well-known, although it isn't the first such system to do this. Groups using NINJAM connect to a common server, and as the jam goes on each user plays a measure. At the end of each measure, whatever each user has played is played to every other user's client, resulting in what some have described as "a mildly strange but engaging experience". NINJAM also boasts a small free web service for musicians to locate other users interested in a common genre or find someone who specializes at a particular instrument to join them in a jam session."
I had some fun jamming with some guys from France one night. We just had a jam session for about 2 hours trading solos and ideas...very fun indeed. The main difference between the two programs is that RiffWorks is persistant while Ninjam isn't meant to be. For example, if you create a collab in RiffWorks it will be there next time you login. With Ninjam the server doesnt actually store any songs. You have to record it live while you are playing if you want to edit it later.

What is NINJAM?

NINJAM is open source (GPL) software to allow people to make real music together via the Internet. Every participant can hear every other participant. Each user can also tweak their personal mix to his or her liking. NINJAM is cross-platform, with clients available for Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows. REAPER (our digital audio workstation software for Windows and OS X) also includes NINJAM support (ReaNINJAM plug-in).
NINJAM uses compressed audio which allows it to work with any instrument or combination of instruments. You can sing, play a real piano, play a real saxophone, play a real guitar with whatever effects and guitar amplifier you want, anything. If your computer can record it, then you can jam with it (as opposed to MIDI-only systems that automatically preclude any kind of natural audio collaboration1).

Since the inherent latency of the Internet prevents true realtime synchronization of the jam2, and playing with latency is weird (and often uncomfortable), NINJAM provides a solution by making latency (and the weirdness) much longer.

Latency in NINJAM is measured in measures, and that's what makes it interesting.

The NINJAM client records and streams synchronized intervals of music between participants. Just as the interval finishes recording, it begins playing on everyone else's client. So when you play through an interval, you're playing along with the previous interval of everybody else, and they're playing along with your previous interval. If this sounds pretty bizarre, it sort of is, until you get used to it, then it becomes pretty natural. In many ways, it can be more forgiving than a normal jam, because mistakes propagate differently.


Part tool, part toy, NINJAM is designed with an emphasis on musical experimentation and expression.

How does NINJAM work?

NINJAM uses OGG Vorbis audio compression to compress audio, then streams it to a NINJAM server, which can then stream it to the other people in your jam. This architecture requires a server with adequate bandwidth, but has no firewall or NAT issues. OGG Vorbis is utilized for its great low bitrate characteristics and performance. Each user receives a copy of other users audio streams, allowing for each user to adjust the mix to their liking, as well as remix later. This uses more bandwidth than having a server encode a single stream, but has numerous benefits (including lower server CPU use and the client having the full multichannel data for later use).
NINJAM can also save all of the original uncompressed source material, for doing full quality remixes after the jam.







http://www.sonomawireworks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6102

Mrchevy

So am I to understand that the group I would be jamming with would not actually be in sync but what I hear and am playing to is in sync? By the way, the guys I would be jamming with, none would be more than 60 to 70 miles away.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Elantric

#8
Quotethe guys I would be jamming with, none would be more than 60 to 70 miles away.

Does not matter - you are not going to get "live real time music collaboration with only 10 milliseconds latency" anytime soon in USA.

Call me when all consumers have an optical Fibre HIGH bandwidth Internet access point with equal up/down speed ( rather like Verizon FIOS - a type of internet connection that will be available only at a premium monthly access cost. 


For example  - this is my AT&T "high speed DSL" connection - observe the difference between Download speed vs Upload speed,  and the 53 ms "ping" - reveals why JamKazam can never "beat physics" to deliver 10 ms audio latency for me in USA in 2014.
http://www.speedtest.net/

 

Mrchevy

Yes, I see, My speed runs a little faster but still not enough I guess. On a good day I get PING 12-24ms, DOWNLOAD 8-10 Mbps, and UPLOAD .8-1.2 Mbps, again, on a good day. My cable provider has options of 30 Mbps and 90Mbps but they are not consistent enough with the 10Mbps service for me to bite.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need