Hardware to generate ADSR from Mono Guitar Audio?

Started by scratch17, March 11, 2017, 12:31:04 PM

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scratch17

Does anyone know of a hardware device that can generate an ADSR from a mono audio signal of a guitar string's envelope with low latency and high accuracy?
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

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chrish

#1
Don't know if this is what you mean but check out the analogue solutions rs-35. And add any modular adsr. The rs35 will take a guitar line level  pitch and convert it to control voltage and there is an out to fire any adsr module to generate control voltage. Or.

A used moog slim phatty will do midi in and offers a cv gate out  that will  trigger an adsr module, but again, it would be envelope cv out.

But
might help to know your plan for the adsr.

scratch17

First, thanks for the reply Chrish.

Ok. Here is my thinking.

I was looking at the differences between NI Komplete 10 and 11 Ultimate. I wanted to see whether the upgrade price was worth it. So I looked at Reaktor 6. That brought me to look at Blocks.

Then I see a video on a thread somewhere on this site (which I can't find now). The guy output his guitar into a Korg MS-20. It was the mini hardware clone that came with the original Legacy collection. Well it worked, with some latency. But it did work. Of course it was monophonic.

The final piece was seeing how to use my old Motu Traveller as a CV device.

I started to generate an idea for a polyphonic guitar synth controller. If I used my RMC Fanout Box, I could send audio from each string of my guitar into six instances of Reaktor. If I can figure out a way to accurately create an envelope from each string's audio signal, Reaktor Blocks can convert that CV signal to Midi.

If my thinking is correct, this would be CV to Midi, not pitch to Midi conversion. So latency would be much lower. Am I on the right track or am I nuts?
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

chrish

#3
I never got past the demo version of reaktor so there are more qualified folks here that may know more.

but would add that  i was looking into the same dream we all want, a low latency, low glitch guitar synth controller.

i wanted to find a way to trigger my moog slim phatty and voyager without using pitch to midi (using gr or vg stuff) and then the  midi to cv that are in the moogs. That control chain  is very slow and glitchy.

so i was  checking to see if anyone had mastered pitch (frequency) to to cv, because the moog's can be triggered via 1v per octave control voltage.

so i went over to 'muff wiggler' and there's a thread on that subject talking about doing guitar or (audio) pitch to cv with the korg ms-20 and the analog solutions-rs35. Both are mono.

once the synth is triggered, you could of course set the synths internal adsr to mimic a guitar string, but i'm guessing that you want that string envelope to be part of the dynamic control sent to  the synth.

The hrm stuff does that for it's internal synth's, with the vg 99 being the best, imo. But same problems sending midi out to other synths.

that radio guitar and pick as a midi  switching guitar controller looks interesting also, too bad it's so expensive and hard to demo.

you may want to check out muff's thread, it may trigger an idea. Google ''analogue solutions rs-35 muff wiggler''.

Side note: It seems that they are trying to clean up their perceived sexist image at muff's. They changed the intro logo from a photo of a guy with an 80's porn mustash to a couple of house cat's. :-)



GuitarBuilder

Another option is to use the PAiA modules; you would need the Envelope Follower/Gate/Trigger + VCA/ADSR modules:

http://www.paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9753ASM

http://paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9710K&cat=12
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Rhcole

Scratch17,

I'm not sure whether your line of thinking is reasonable or not. The pitch interpretation part is the hardest part of converting an audio signal. So, whether or not it is then translated into MIDI or CV is not where the bottleneck might be in the processing.
Software is getting better and better at analyzing pitches, so what you intend as a result is certainly reasonable. BUT, I don't know if the ADSR-pitch detection- CV is the right model to get where you want to go.

I have owned an original MS-20 and Reaktor. These kinds of garage-punk solutions where everything gets wired into everything else can be fun.

szilard

Quote from: scratch17 on March 14, 2017, 07:47:22 AM
If my thinking is correct, this would be CV to Midi, not pitch to Midi conversion. So latency would be much lower. Am I on the right track or am I nuts?

You need to be more specific. My guess is it's not going to do what you're thinking. If you're looking at the Midi Out block note that it says

"This dedicated Blocks module sends MIDI out to external gear. It converts Pitch and Gate information from any Blocks patch into MIDI signals. The module also functions as a four-channel CV to MIDI CC converter."

It converts CV to MIDI CC, not MIDI note data and it converts pitch data to MIDI, but not audio to pitch.


nix808

Hey Scratch17,
are you on Windows?
If so I have made some open source software that might be interesting to you.
Here's the thread-
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10492.0
it works with a breakout like a fanout box.
Rock and Rock my boat, as long as you don't rock and rock my boat!hehe

scratch17

First I'd like to thank all members who replied to this thread.

After some more thought, and the added info from your replies, I realized that I missed the fact that pitch was not derived in the Reaktor Blocks Connect videos. It was generated by a sequencer block.

However, I have not given up on my basic premise that doing pitch to MIDI with six mono streams will have lower latency than converting pitch to MIDI in a polyphonic audio stream.

I am looking at creation of a Reaktor block to accomplish that. I am pretty sure it can be done. But I need to do more research.

Steven
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

nix808

I'm not sure it's that fast-
I have added a delay actually, which is not less than 2000 samples @44.1k.
IMO there is an untidy noise at the start of each note-
I have used the GK3 too a bit- it has the most wicked string separation.

I have a mode where it trigs as fast as I can do it which takes 20ms.
Rock and Rock my boat, as long as you don't rock and rock my boat!hehe

szilard

Quote from: scratch17 on March 26, 2017, 11:29:50 AM

However, I have not given up on my basic premise that doing pitch to MIDI with six mono streams will have lower latency than converting pitch to MIDI in a polyphonic audio stream.

Steven
Hi Steven,
I think you're right about that - isn't that what Roland GM/GR synths are doing? If you search thru the reaktor user library I think you'll find some pitch to midi or at least some pitch detection stuff.

Elantric

I'd use a Boss GP-10

Outputs 6 channels of MIDI - one per string

Outputs 6 channels of Audio - one per string

Drive 6 instances of Reactor - one per string

nix808

Hey again!
Can I join your project, or you mine Scratch17?
I am more interested in a MIDI output, but we can do CV too.
I see you use Mac-
I have 2 Macs to develop on, they will be fast enough I hope, for they are a little long in the tooth.
I had Reaktor 5, and just upgraded to 6, will have it up in an iMac today.
I have the circuit built in another environment, Flowstone.
The technology I think we should leverage is 0 crossing to 0 crossing time(in samples)measurement.
The way I have done it- I do not (as Roland has been purported to have) turn the signal into a pulse, I just apply lots of careful filtering to give a perfect sine.
There are no smashing tricks(apart from frequency feedback on cutoffs), just hours of trying different ways,orders and types of filters.
Will be butting my head against Reaktor for the next couple of weeks,
will up a scene here soon.
I use a GK3 now(brand new one on my Ibby RG, and 2 leads in the mail-planning to make 2 neato identical mains breakouts), I can't make a flawless instrument with my other hexes.
Cheers!
PS- we need only one instance of Reaktor I think , will check
If you just want CVs, don't bother reading pitch perhaps? You could do some schem that reads midi and outputs a DC voltage.
U could do that if you are happy with Roland/Boss' conversion
Rock and Rock my boat, as long as you don't rock and rock my boat!hehe

scratch17

Hi Nix 808. First up, thanks for the replies, interest and suggestions. Second, I am happy to have anyone work on this.

I am no expert with MIDI or with synth technology. I do have a programming background with C++ and JAVA, but have not done any programing in five years. You are much better equipped to do the actual work. Unfortunately, I have recently needed surgery on both arms and my left hand because of neural deficit. So I can't even play my guitar right now. Plus I have moved and am working on cramming my studio into a much smaller space. It is not set up yet. So I can be of little help at this point.

What triggered my interest (pardon the pun) was the videos of the Reaktor 6 control blocks, plus the video of a guitar plugged into a Korg MS-20. I was hoping that using Reaktor 6 blocks, and a fanout box, I could simply use ready made components and get fast polyphonic guitar to MIDI conversion in real time.

While I am not in position to do work on this project at this time, here are some of my other thoughts on this. Maybe they can help you develop this idea into a solution.

Set up a guitar with six G strings across the fretboard. (This is not my idea. I am just borrowing it.) This would limit actual string pitch from G to F, one octave above G, on a 22 fret neck.

By limiting the pitch range, you could filter any pitch below open G's fundamental and filter any harmonics above the second octave. Another benefit to this is that all of the filters for all of the strings would be the same. When you use all G strings, you do away with the long wavelengths of low string fundamentals. Therefore, pitch determination should be faster.

So each string's audio would start with filter blocks to eliminate out-of-range pitches.

Next comes what I call a Fret Position Block. The Fret Position Block would determine actual string, not guitar tuning pitch. In other words, even for the B string, the actual pitch of the G string in the B string's position would be determined. The output of this block would be an integer from zero to 23 (open + 22 fret stops). It doesn't actually represent pitch. It represents fret position from the nut for that specific string.

That integer, along with the user's desired string tuning (input as another parameter), would be input to a Tuning Block. The Tuning Block would translate the fret position, relative to the desired string tuning into what I think of as a tuning pitch for that specific string. Then tuning pitch is output as a MIDI note number.

So my thinking at this point is more of a general algorithm to achieve pitch to MIDI. Reaktor blocks seems like a tool box that might allow for implementation of the algorithm. I am not even sure the algorithm is correct.

I hope these ideas are of value, Scratch17.

Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

Elantric

#14
QuoteWhat triggered my interest (pardon the pun) was the videos of the Reaktor 6 control blocks, plus the video of a guitar plugged into a Korg MS-20. I was hoping that using Reaktor 6 blocks, and a fanout box, I could simply use ready made components and get fast polyphonic guitar to MIDI conversion in real time.

many skip MIDI and use one audio channel per string ( Boss GP-10) to drive 6 instances of Reaktor - as demonstrated here:

Quote



http://www.joness.com/gr300/GK-Expander.htm
The GK-Expander is a Roland 13-pin guitar synthesizer format break out box. In this demo, the six outputs from the GK Expander are recorded directly into Digital Performer, using a Native Instruments Reakor guitar synthesizer plug-on. The track was recorded in one pass, with no overdubs. The Reaktor plug in used is GSynth designed by Mark Smart.

DR Wayne Joness N.I. Reaktor patch  is either Mac or PC


https://www.native-instruments.com/en/reaktor-community/reaktor-user-library/entry/show/5557/



Mark Smarts GR-300 app is a totally different thing
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7772.msg54675#msg54675

Contact Mark Smart here
http://www.marksmart.net

or use U-He Zebra "Zebrify function"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13010.msg94707#msg94707

check out Pasha's U-He Zebra demo
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13010.0;attach=10667
QuoteThe Audio to MIDI conversion is internal to Zebrify and fills the need to detect the note you're playing. Your DAW acts simply as an host. Having used Ableton Live I have complemented with Live FX the output from Zebrify. So Reaper will be ok.

shawnb

My first thought was - "What, a volume pedal?"    ;D

You might want to look at the Spicetone 6Appeal:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=179.0

It has midi-triggered ADSR capability.  Limited, but it's there.  They have stated they plan to enhance this in the future. 

The 6Appeal can also operate as a fanout box. 

Its primary function is a highly-programmable hex distortion unit.  With 100% analog distortion on 7 channels (there is a circuit for your mag pup as well).  It sounds glorious when dialed in. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

nix808

#16
Hey Scratch, nice to meet you.
You're welcome on the info, this is my favourite subject pretty much.
That's terrible that you can't play guitar atm.

With the filtering to range- that's what I do. I have a Chebyshev low pass filter to take away high, and a very steep high pass filter to cut low at the places you mentioned.
In addition to this however, I use the dc frequency figure on an array of filters' cut. So a cascaded notch is set to twice frequency
to null out the harmonic also a low pass with accentuated passband, a biquad eq gives a passband node and boosts high artficailly,
and this all goes through a one pole low pass filter, to smooth any noise.

I have thought of the same string method, and will be forced to try it by Paul Rubenstein pups. I am going to use a D string tuned to E on all the strings.
For speed, high E would be fastest, but it throws the worst first harmonic of all the strings.

I have a rudimentary understanding of MIDI, enough to send the notes. You may find it interesting that 'in the box' we have a power of the bandwidth of the hardware UART, so you can go real fast sending 15,000 events per second.

The algo signal flow sounds correct enough, agreed we should be able to digitally detune- that's in my current '2SYN' VST.

I'm not sure how we will go with blocks, there would be many user's ensembles too, as Elantric is hooking us up with.
I'm going to do it empirically, and attempt to build a 0 crossing counter first.

Thanks for throwing your concept out there, much appreciated!
Rock and Rock my boat, as long as you don't rock and rock my boat!hehe

scratch17

Hi Nix 808. Nice to meet you too. I agree with Elantric that MIDI guitar has a small niche interest and following. But I do think it has potential if improved to the point where it is easy to implement and works well.

Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

admin

#18
http://nermark.com/reports/NAMM_Winter_2017/NAMM_Winter_2017_5.htm



The first product I saw that really caught my interest this year was this Squaver P1 audio controlled synthesizer by Sonicsmith. You can control this by anything that sends audio. In my case I want to control it with electric guitar and bass. It's a digitally controlled analog synth with all the features you'd expect from an analog device and then some. One thing that makes this the gateway drug into serious modular synthesis is theCV/Gate output. This means you can get into all these new analog modules popping up just about everywhere. Mind you, this is a real synthesizer for those who want synthesizer sounds. If you want to play a Rohdes piano from your guitar, go away at once. This is for the adventerous spirits out there.



http://sonicsmith.com/products/squaver-p1/