Any hexaphonic fx processors with individual string outputs?

[chlorinemist]

I've recently built myself a rig that revolves heavily around hexaphonic fx processing (rather than midi triggering) and taking the idea as far as I can. At the moment the heart of my fx rig is my Spicetone 6Appeal (best pedal ever), which covers the vast majority of my analog/gain fx needs, but I want to add a hex digital processing stage to do pitch fx/tuning changes before passing the signal on to the 6Appeal, since doing this post-gain will obviously compromise the quality of the pitch tracking and possibly even clip the AD/DA. Simply put, I'd like to do hexaphonic pitch shifting, and follow it with hexaphonic distortion.

I really liked a lot of the polyphonic FX i've seen in demos of the BOSS GP10, Roland GR-55, and GR-S. But unfortunately, Roland does not offer any products that even feature a 13-pin output jack at all.

I thought I'd finally found the solution for this when I saw the Antares ATG-1 has a 13 pin output. But, to my dismay, it turned out to only be a "thru" jack, duplicating the input signal rather outputting the 6 autotuned string signals. I took a look at the luthier kits as well and they too only offer mono or stereo summed outputs.

Another thing I considered was just sending the string outputs on my breakout box to 6 inputs on my audio interface, loading up 6 audio tracks in ableton and doing my pitch processing with plugins. I tried this and while it was an interesting experiment, I have yet to find a pitch shifting vst with a satisfyingly low latency.

The next thing I tried was purchasing an Eventide H8000FW, and patching that in before the 6Appeal. While this most certainly does work, the problem here is that Eventide's pitch shifting algorithms, despite their sterling reputation, are in fact extremely outdated. They were the least accurate at tracking pitch and had the highest latency out of all the options I've tried. (The H8000 however works very nicely after the drive stage for modulation and time-based effects, though it's reputation for having a very poor user interface is well deserved.)

ATM i use an Electro-Harmonix Pitch Fork in a monophonic chain after the 6Appeal for pitch shifting purposes. It tracks and processes chords quite effortlessly, amazing especially compared the the H8000 (even when shifting each string on seperate channels). It even tracks pretty well after distortion, though not as well. The low latency is impressive but still noticable enough to affect my playing when turned up to 100% wet.

I often use 3 outputs on the 6Appeal (Mono, left, right), and 7 at other times (6 individual string outs and mono summed out) and at the moment I'm starting to think buying 7 Pitch Forks and mounting them on a rack drawer, as preposterous as that seems, is actually the best way to go. I could get a 7 channel Midi-to-CV converter, connect it to all the expression pedal inputs, and creating tuning presets that way. But obviously I hope it doesnt have to come to that, because it sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Anyone have any ideas? Anything I've overlooked out there in hex world?

[admin]

The GP-10 does have individual string outputs- but via USB Audio

That was the goal of Henry Juszkiewicz - who has spent millions between 1989-2012 trying to convince the world this type product would be successful.
http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/HD-6X-Pro-Digital-Guitar/Features.aspx



Roland has never made what you seek

"Why" ?


The High Cost and lack of market demand for a true 6 in  / 6 out processor.

In the past, what prevented this was due to hitting the ceiling with their DSP , and available I2S ( 2 channel digital domain ) I/O

and high cost of multiple A/D's and Multiple DACs.

( although today, AKM makes many Multichannel "CODEC" IC's , that support I8S  ( 8 channel digital domain ) I/O

http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/detail/0020/



Look at the soon to be released Eventide H9000

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19618.msg140725#msg140725




www.eventide.com

The new generation of H9000 multi-effects processors has a modular architecture for a customized configuration of DSP power and I / O. Compatible with the most popular audio networks, it offers multichannel processing capabilities equivalent to ten times the power of the H8000 series, a performance impossible to achieve until now, even with software solutions plug-ins.
The H9000 is designed to include all of Eventide's most renowned effects in a solution that fits perfectly into all current production situations: studio, live, post-production and broadcast. It has an innovative and intuitive user interface: a color display on the front, plus the emote ™ software, available for Mac, PC and iOS, as well as AAX, VST and AU plug-in formats.
Delivered with thousands of immediately usable effects, the H9000 is able to simultaneously execute up to 16 algorithms: delay, diatonic pitch-shifting, flangers, EQs, reverberations, with the possibility of creating its own multichannel effects. It is fully compatible with the H8000, H7600, H9 algorithms and the VSIG development platform.
The new "FX Chain" feature allows you to combine up to 4 algorithms to create "Super-Effects".
The H9000 is equipped with a modular DSP section, consisting of 4 independent slots, each capable of handling 32 audio channels. Input / output configuration is also expandable, 3 slots for compatibility with audio formats: Pro Tools, Thunderbolt, Dante, MADI, Ravenna, AVB, AES67 and USB Audio.


Or?

Use three used VG-8EXs ( $150 ea / $450 total.

[chlorinemist]

The soon to be released Eventide H9000

I sincerely hope that the H9K will be the solution but I'm sorry to say I think it's pretty unlikely. After my experiences with the H9 Max and the H8000FW it seems apparent to me that Eventide do not seem interested in developing a better pitch algorithm. It's crazy because they pride themselves on being the inventors pitch shifting and go so far as to call their flagship product the "Harmonizer", and yet while the industry has gone on to develop FAR superior pitch shifting algorithms with way lower latency and nearly perfect polyphonic tracking (EHX POG series, Digitech Whammy V, BOSS OC-10), they  apparently see no need to develop their tech to compete with modern standards. I've actually seen multiple Eventide reps questioned about this, and universally they responded with nonsense statements like "pitch shifting can't work with chords" and "no one wants polyphonic pitch shifting anyways".
The H9 has virtually no new algorithms. The factor pedals and the Eclipse as well are all repackaged algorithms from taken the Harmonizer series (the last of which was released in 2005). These are great fx and all but it is very disappointing to see Eventide focusing entirely on marketing and design side while simultaneously ignoring modern innovations in actual fx technology. It's great that they've improved the UI so much but if the unit doesn't pack some serious innovations in the actual *sound* department I'm afraid the product might end up being a major flop.

Hopefully im wrong though!

[chlorinemist]

Just saw you added more to your post.

That was the goal of Henry Juszkiewicz - who has spent millions between 1989-2012 trying to convince the world this type product would be successful.
http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/HD-6X-Pro-Digital-Guitar/Features.aspx

Wow very interesting! Thanks for the link. I'd never heard of the HD-6X, very interesting take on the concept. I'm personally using Cycfi Research's Nexus breakout box and Nu multichannel pickups to very similar ends. The Cycfi stuff has a way lower price of entry and the whole concept I think is a little more realistic now than in the past. The price per channel of equipment has gone down, everyone has a multichannel interface and DAW, amazing products like the 6Appeal are now on the market, and hexaphonic versions of "real" guitar pickups (the (amazing) Cycfi Nu's, as well as Ubertars offerings) are finally available. Knowing guitarists though, it probably won't become commercially viable until a rock star guitar hero makes a classic album with it.

Roland has never made what you seek

"Why" ?


The High Cost and lack of market demand for a true 6 in  / 6 out processor.

In the past, what prevented this was due to hitting the ceiling with their DSP , and available I2S ( 2 channel digital domain ) I/O

and high cost of multiple A/D's and Multiple DACs.

( although today, AKM makes many Multichannel "CODEC" IC's , that support I8S  ( 8 channel digital domain ) I/O

http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/detail/0020/

Understandable, though one would think that these days such a proposition would be within the realm of affordability. The ATG-1 goes for $700 (although admittedly I dont think it's selling well). The luthier kit costs $250, and it seems like most of the price difference is in the chassis, displays and switches. I'd gladly buy a 6-output luthier kit for $700... But yeah I know I'm probably one of the only people out there that wants this, so they have little reason to cater to my desire.

Use three used VG-8EXs ( $150 ea / $450 total.

Hm that just might work! Would take up even more space than 7 Pitch Forks, but at least the MIDI control is built in.

[Rhcole]

I think EHX is the current leader in pitch-shifting. I had the Pitch Fork and sold it, though. It didn't work for me on complex chords or even simple 7ths. But, their -9 series stomp boxes keep getting better.

The Eventide products were untouchable 20 years ago but no longer. EHX keeps investing in the space, they may dominate it soon.

[vanceg]

I, too, am considering using the Eventide H9K for this purpose.

I also agree to SOME degree with the statement that other companies have moved forward with new and perhaps better pitch detection and pitch shifting algorithms.

One possible solution would be to get the folks at Antares to create a new version of their system which is capable of outputting pitch shifted audio on 13 pin.  However, this would be a significant redesign of their system and I'm not entirely sure they've had the market success with the ATG product line that would warrant modifying it and coming out with such a product.  Personally, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE this!!!! I think their pitch shifting (and pickup modeling) is the very best in the market for polyphonic guitar right now.

[Elantric]

I think their pitch shifting (and pickup modeling) is the very best in the market for polyphonic guitar right now.

I agree - easily demonstrated using the "pitch slider" control on their MIDI Designer iPad app for Antares Autotune Guitar
I told them "put that in a small box with a treadle pedal and it would sell like hotcakes, but nothing has happened after 3 years of me saying this at every NAMM show since 2013.
Might be due to an IVL / Digitech patent for the Whammy Pedal"

But key figures there have now retired, so  I'm not holding my breath for a product of that type anytime soon from them.

[shawnb]

Anyone have any ideas? Anything I've overlooked out there in hex world?

I'd consider going all software/vst.  This would be a perfect task for Hollyhock, which is a fascinating mix of DAW & development platform...  Some screenshots here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6296.msg87755#msg87755

[Elantric]

I'd consider going all software/vst.  This would be a perfect task for Hollyhock, which is a fascinating mix of DAW & development platform...  Some screenshots here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6296.msg87755#msg87755

time to apply caig deoxit to the old Gibson Dark Fire and RIP Box

[chlorinemist]

time to apply caig deoxit to the old Gibson Dark Fire and RIP Box

Ha. Not dissimilar from the GUI of Cycfi's upcoming Infinity software



tbh Infinity will probably end up being the solution. Joel says the final version will have pitch shifting, waveshaping, synthesized sympathetic resonance, frequency modulation, convolution pickup simulation, polyphonic note freezing, polyphonic sustainer with tunable harmonics... I just have no idea when it will be released and patience is not my forte 

[GuitarBuilder]

I'd gladly buy a 6-output luthier kit for $700... But yeah I know I'm probably one of the only people out there that wants this, so they have little reason to cater to my desire.

I put that very request into Antares via Henrik and was told they were not interested.  What's ironic is that the ATG DSP is processing 6 individual channels at all times; all I'm asking for is to not mix them back down to mono...   Perhaps if enough of us ask, they might reconsider.

For me, having a hexaphonic ATG guitar would be killer - a perfect input for VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, and 6APPEAL.

[chlorinemist]

I think EHX is the current leader in pitch-shifting. I had the Pitch Fork and sold it, though. It didn't work for me on complex chords or even simple 7ths. But, their -9 series stomp boxes keep getting better.

The Eventide products were untouchable 20 years ago but no longer. EHX keeps investing in the space, they may dominate it soon.

In terms of sheer pitch-shifting performance, as far as I can tell, EHX is unsurpassed in the non-hex polyshifting realm. The Whammy V comes close. I haven't compared directly to the boss OC. I've been researching hard on this subject and would be surprised to find something better, at least in terms of pitch accuracy and latency. The wet signal itself does seem somewhat more "artificial" sounding compared to Eventide but the accuracy of the tracking makes it much less prone to dissonance and ugly digital artifacts.
What's frustrating is that EHX has a strict design philosophy that insists on everything having a simplified UI. I really wish they would take their pitch algorithm and make a Pitch Factor killer. They could release a pedal with full MIDI implementation, presets, an LCD display with menus and endless parameters, step sequenced pitch arpeggiation, fine tunable shifting by the cent with visual feedback, stereo ins and outs, envelope controls, multiple vibrato waveforms, delayed pitch shifts, etc etc etc. and dethrone Eventide entirely as the leader in pitch shifting. They could totally do it but I know they most likely never will

[chlorinemist]

I put that very request into Antares via Henrik and was told they were not interested.  What's ironic is that the ATG DSP is processing 6 individual channels at all times; all I'm asking for is to not mix them back down to mono...   Perhaps if enough of us ask, they might reconsider.

For me, having a hexaphonic ATG guitar would be killer - a perfect input for VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, and 6APPEAL.

Such a bummer to hear. So frustrating when companies seem so aloof to their own technology's potential. They could be providing something that would be extremely useful for musicians and the logical next step forward from where they are now, while filling a niche in the market that is currently vacant. Especially considering they do the luthier kits, you'd think they'd at least consider making 6 outs an option, or at the very least express an understanding of the potential of this feature. It would be the perfect companion for the 6Appeal and really make hexaphonic fx chains a viable and exciting market. Really unfortunate how unwilling many companies are to adopt common standards and make mutually beneficial decisions. If hex fx could be daisy chained, people would start buying more than one and actually become permanently invested in the platform. As it stands now, hex is generally being treated more like a novelty side project rather than the next-level sound design paradigm-changer it actually is.

[GuitarBuilder]

I even offered to help pay for the development costs!

[Elantric]

I put that very request into Antares via Henrik and was told they were not interested.  What's ironic is that the ATG DSP is processing 6 individual channels at all times; all I'm asking for is to not mix them back down to mono...   Perhaps if enough of us ask, they might reconsider.

For me, having a hexaphonic ATG guitar would be killer - a perfect input for VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, and 6APPEAL.

Not going to happen (sadly)

the big companies ( Roland, Fishman, Antares, Line-6) have an agenda to keep you in their own ecosystem.
And they think 20,000 folks at VGuitarForums are just an anomaly, and not indicative of  "where the big sales numbers are"   
- a bit like CNN's opinion of "fake news"(Matt Drudge)  on the internet
It's a rare event when anyone of these companies  provide a cross compatible universal interface and common protocol for  mixing the best bits from each company. This path could be bigger than MIDI  = maybe in the future there will be AES67 I/O on all our gear - ( doubt it)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_network_protocols

And its easy to look at I/O ports and project one's desire and think "this obviously should work"  - when the reality is very different.

A bit like the GK-13 THRU Output on the ATG-1  - but none of the Antares Auto tune tech gets passed out via that port,  its almost a parallel connection form the GK input, except in fact its not a replacement for a US-20 GK 13 pin A/B Unit Selector box, as the ATG-1's  GK 13 pin output does not pass the "S1, S2 switch controls out to that "crippled" 13 pin output port 

( At least the Spicetone 6APPEAL got the GK Out done correctly ! )


 

[whippinpost91850]

I too would love this.. Now I cannot really use my ATG1 on stage.

[vanceg]

I put that very request into Antares via Henrik and was told they were not interested.  What's ironic is that the ATG DSP is processing 6 individual channels at all times; all I'm asking for is to not mix them back down to mono...   Perhaps if enough of us ask, they might reconsider.

For me, having a hexaphonic ATG guitar would be killer - a perfect input for VG-99, GR-55, GP-10, and 6APPEAL.

This would be amazing. And clearly then the ATG could be the front end for any combination hex/mono processing system, with it's pitch shifting and pickup emulation (which I believe many of us agree are the best in the market by a long shot) proving the core starting point for a hex signal chain.

In most cases I'd agree with Elantric in saying that these companies have an interest in encouraging users to stay within their ecosystem.  That's absolutely the case for a company like Roland or even Fractal (who of course doens't make a hex system) who design complete 'environments' that include amp emulation, effects, sometimes guitar emulation, etc.    Antares, though, doesn't do that.  They stick to the front end.  They do the things that more or less emulate the sound as it would exit a guitar: Tuning and Pickup emulation (granted they don't currently do body type emulation as Roland does).  But they don't do any amp stuff, they don't do effects.  So I'd say that they don't even seem interested in creating a full environment.  They DO, though, absolutely excel at pitch and pickup emulation.  So they seem to me to be the ideal candidate for creating a font end for further hex processing.

That's why it seems entirely logical to me to encourage them in this direction - They are going to do it better than anyone else, they already have all the technology, they 'just' need to provide a 13 pin processed output.

All that said - I ABSOLUTELY and VERY strongly agree with Elantric that this seems easy and obvious to those who are interested in hex processing, but getting a company who needs to address a large portion of the current guitar playing marketplace is a challenge.    I think Antares has a great opportunity here... but if they decide the same is the question.

[vanceg]

I even offered to help pay for the development costs!

How seriously did you propose that?  Do you understand that this could easily be well into in 6 figures?  If you have that kind of money to dedicate to such a project, I do have someone you could talk to.  PM me.

[GuitarBuilder]

How seriously did you propose that?  Do you understand that this could easily be well into in 6 figures?  If you have that kind of money to dedicate to such a project, I do have someone you could talk to.  PM me.

Very seriously - realizing that it's perhaps not such a great effort to modify the existing design, certainly not in the 6-figure area (that would be doing it completely from scratch).  I think the issue is that Antares (perhaps Andy Hildebrand) did the Auto-tune for Guitar as a labor of love/experiment, because it's not their mainstream product line.  As such, I suspect they may have done minimal or no market research and product management, or they would take the wishes of the GK/Hex guitar community more seriously.

I'm guessing we should poll the VGuitar community for interest in an auto-tune product with hex outputs and see how may folks agree that it would be useful.

[whippinpost91850]

Certainly would be a lot more useful if the Autotune setting mirrored in the 13 pin output. Which I assume is what we are talking about

[vanceg]

Yeah, hopefully it wouldn't be too very difficult to add the processed signal to the 13 pin ouptut.


I suspect that they didn't do a lot of careful analysis of how to market ATG. Perhaps they will take another pass at it... because the technology is pretty damn impressive and I think not only us "weirdo" guitarists could benefit from it.   The key is helping them build a product that would appeal to enough "normal" guitarists that it's really beneficial for them to build it, and yet has enough of these features (like 13 pin output) that the product actually pushes creative boundaries of the instrument.

Very seriously - realizing that it's perhaps not such a great effort to modify the existing design, certainly not in the 6-figure area (that would be doing it completely from scratch).  I think the issue is that Antares (perhaps Andy Hildebrand) did the Auto-tune for Guitar as a labor of love/experiment, because it's not their mainstream product line.  As such, I suspect they may have done minimal or no market research and product management, or they would take the wishes of the GK/Hex guitar community more seriously.

I'm guessing we should poll the VGuitar community for interest in an auto-tune product with hex outputs and see how may folks agree that it would be useful.

[vanceg]

I should clarify from my earlier post in which I said I was considering using the H9000 for "this".  The original post was about a hex processor with individual string outputs.  In fact, I'd plan to use the H9000 as a complete hex processing environment...I supposed I COULD run the hex outs into other devices, but honestly i suspect that I'd have my hands full with just the H9k.

[GuitarBuilder]

Certainly would be a lot more useful if the Autotune setting mirrored in the 13 pin output. Which I assume is what we are talking about

Yes - IMHO the greatest disadvantage of the current ATG products is that they are essentially stand-alone: once the guitar signal is auto-tuned, it is essentially out of tune with the original guitar pickup sounds, including the hex.  The 13-pin output on the ATG-1 is a joke - connect that to a GP-10 and you get a horrible mess if your guitar isn't perfectly in tune.

The logical approach is to have an auto-tuned hex output on the guitar or from the ATG-1.

[Elantric]

Yes - IMHO the greatest disadvantage of the current ATG products is that they are essentially stand-alone: once the guitar signal is auto-tuned, it is essentially out of tune with the original guitar pickup sounds, including the hex.  The 13-pin output on the ATG-1 is a joke - connect that to a GP-10 and you get a horrible mess if your guitar isn't perfectly in tune.

The logical approach is to have an auto-tuned hex output on the guitar or from the ATG-1.

Have to agree with that! But the issue is the hardware  - the  current implementation  the DSP supports  6 inputs >DSP > and 2 outputs. As that was all they thought was needed for market success.   

the first version of ATG-1 saw did not have a GK-13 pin  Output.

And my biggest gripe with ATG-1 is that once the Autotune is enabled - there is no "off" switch, and no bypass switch. A Power recycle is what it takes to disable the Autotune. Seems like a baked in agenda , and when I inform I want a bypass switch on my ATG-1, its like requesting my water company not to provide fluoridated water to my house.   
the ATG-1 it lacks support for adding 4 more DAC outputs ( 6 analog inputs > DSP> 6 outputs  required for a true Autotuned GK-13 pin output

[GuitarBuilder]

Have to agree with that! But the issue is the hardware  - the  current implementation  the DSP supports  6 inputs >DSP > and 2 outputs. As that was all they thought was needed for market success.   

the first version of ATG-1 saw did not have a GK-13 pin  Output.

And my biggest gripe with ATG-1 is that once the Autotune is enabled - there is no "off" switch, and no bypass switch. A Power recycle is what it takes to disable the Autotune. Seems like a baked in agenda , and when I inform I want a bypass switch on my ATG-1, its like requesting my water company not to provide fluoridated water to my house.   
the ATG-1 it lacks support for adding 4 more DAC outputs ( 6 analog inputs > DSP> 6 outputs  required for a true Autotuned GK-13 pin output

Correct!

My guess is that the output hardware modifications would be minimal (unless I'm missing something).  Here is the board from my luthier kit:





Right next to connector P1 (hex signal) are the six preamps and A/Ds used to port the guitar audio into the DSP.  My guess is that could be replicated with DACs at the output.

The Audio DSP is a NXP Semiconductor DSPB56725A; datasheet is attached.