FOMOfx - Virtual Jeff

Started by mbenigni, January 07, 2016, 09:46:03 AM

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Smash

Quote from: vanceg on March 21, 2017, 12:44:00 PM
Where the arm falls seems to be adjustable, and could be adjusted by the placement of the unit on the guitar, too. 
Personally, my (very brief) use of the Virtual Jeff at NAMM last year was that I thought the feel was fantastic.  I'm always looking for a tremolo system with less resistance - I like the feel of the old Kahler's as opposed to Floyd or Strats. 

The way I'm looking at it, the Virtual Jeff is a controller I can attach to my instrument which has a familiar interface. I plan to map the MIDI from the Virtual Jeff to control not only pitch shifting, but other parameters as well.  HOPEfully, I can get it working with the VG-99 and map it effectively to the Whammy control.  Bend will be interesting to control with it, as I suspect I can get some pedal steel type bends out of it. 

I don't even own a Digitech Whammy pedal... so I'll be trying to use the MIDI that the Virtual Jeff creates to control the VG-99.  I'll also experiment with using the CV ouptut from the bar unit itself, bypassing the CV to MIDI conversion that the Virtual Jeff does, and trying to use that CV with my existing CV to MIDI converters.

Agreed - I also loved the feel of Kahlers - possibly the most expressive trem I've used. it's just the virtual Jeff's natural mounting place is behind the bridge but it's arm is too short to make it to where a traditional arm get to. Watching the video where your picking hand naturally falls is ahead of the arm - everytime they go to use it they have to move their hand. I love doing the note slur/up pull Allan Holdsworth/Alan Murphy technique which means being able to cradle the arm in your palm all the time you're playing. It just doesn't look like this was considered in this design and I guess I'm just surprised it's got into production without any revision or adaption for that.

vanceg

I agree.  The arm could be made longer, though.  Where I'm going to mount it is basically ABOVE my bridge.  I'm first going to use it on a headless instrument, and I can make a little bracket that goes essentially over my bridge/tuner pieces.  Since I'm putting it on a headless, I can't really put it directly behind the bridge because this is where my tuners are. 

vanceg

Minor torture:  I received my Virtual Jeff, but can't even try it out as I had to leave for tour moments after it arrived.  Boooo.  Well, as soon as I'm back from this Coachella insanity, I'll try it out.

scratch17

Hi Vanceg. Have a great gig! and when you get back, please report your impressions of the Virtual Jeff.

I have a VG-99 so I am interested in the Jeff as a general controller for it. And while I am no MIDI programming wizard by any means, I would love to see if it could be used with my KPA as well.
Hamer Duotone, Brian Moore i213, Taylor 710 BCE 

VG-99, FC-300, RMC Fanout
RJM Mastermind GT10
Kemper Profiling Amp
Radial JDV Mk3, X-Amp
Mesa Recto Pre + 20/20
68 Fender Bandmaster (AB763)
Marshal AS80R

UA Apollo X6, Twin X, Logic Pro, Luna, Melodyne Studio

alexmcginness

Ditto. Im hoping that the VG 99 wont need the whammy pedal to make it work. How much did the VJ cost?
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

vanceg

Quote from: alexmcginness on April 17, 2017, 10:26:32 PM
Ditto. Im hoping that the VG 99 wont need the whammy pedal to make it work. How much did the VJ cost?

I am too!  I suspect that I'll be able to either set it in some mode which will allow it to send MIDI that the VG-99 will respond well to (a plain old CC message) or I may have to massage the SysEx that it (may or may not) send out so that it's converted into a plain old CC message or SysEx for the VG-99

vanceg

OK!  At last I've had a chance to play with the Virtual Jeff for a while. 

The deal is:  This initial model, as we know, is setup for use with the Whammy Pedal.  What this means is that the MIDI messages that it sends out are, of course, designed specifically for that device.

What I'm seeing is that it's sending a Program Change message to set the preset on the Whammy Pedal and then it sends MIDI CC11 with values ranging from 0 at the rest state, to 127 at the "full up" or "full down" state.  You can change "modes" on the Virtual Jeff and this sets a new max value for CC11 in both the "Up" and "Down" state.  For example, one mode has the "full up" value at 64 and the "full down" value at 127.  But in ALL states, BOTH the upward and downward motion of the whammy bar cause CC11 to increase from 0 at the rest state to some max value at both "full up" and "full down" position.   

This isn't ideal for use with the Roland products as they don't have any way parse the Program Change information which is essentially telling the receiving device if the whammy bar is moving Upward or Downward. 

However, it wouldn't be very hard at all to write a little parser in Bome or any sofware/hardware that would interpret the Program Change information and then remap the CC11 to a new set of values based on if the bar was moving Up or Down.

I've also got a note into the manufacturer to see if he can include a "generic" mode which would sent MIDI CC11 value 63 at the rest position, 127 at the "full up" position and 0 at the "full down" position. 

Next - I write a little translator for it in Bhome.


alexmcginness

Thanks for the report. I think Im gonna hold off until it works with the VG-99 without the whammy pedal.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

vanceg

Quote from: alexmcginness on April 26, 2017, 11:28:45 PM
Thanks for the report. I think Im gonna hold off until it works with the VG-99 without the whammy pedal.

What I'm saying is that it will work with the VG-99, without the Whammy Pedal, but you'd need to do a wee bit of MIDI manipulation using something like BOME software or hardware or something like this MIDI Event Processor - http://www.midisolutions.com/prodepp.htm

Granted, that is some extra hardware or software which "shouldn't" be needed as the system inside the Virtual Jeff is technically capable of outputting MIDI messages that could work with the VG-99... it's just not yet programmed to. 

I'm hoping that FOMO Effects will eventually create another version of the Virtual Jeff with these settings built in... even some "generic" setting that would generally work with any device would be cool. 

I'm thinking that if the unit just oupuut MIDI Pitch Bend information, or just a single CC message with a value of 0 at the "full down" position, 63 at the "rest" position and 127 at the "full down" position, that would be great.  Or perhaps one CC message from 0-127 covering the "rest" to "full up" position and another CC message from 0-127 from the "rest" to "full down" position.   Either of those would work with the VG-99.

nix808

8D
I think I'm going to get one of these, and integrate it with my software.
I can map the CC too
Should be real nice!
It will be cool to map it to the pitchbend message,
I'm not sure why the manufacturer didn't use that one, it has 16387 values I think, something like that
Rock and Rock my boat, as long as you don't rock and rock my boat!hehe

Elantric

#85
I have used Virtual Jeff for a day or two  - but i'm holding off getting my checkbook out.

IMHO the mechanicals are simply not optimal , it does not feel like a genuine whammy, and as a long time strat  / floyd user  -I rely on the variable torque of the bar .

by contrast with Virtual Jeff, it has a center dead stop,, and the arm is too short IMHO  = very fiddly to obtain desired pitch     

vanceg

Quote from: Elantric on April 27, 2017, 04:27:24 PM
I have used Virtual Jeff for a day or two  - but i'm holding off.

IMHO the mechanicals are simply not optimal , it does not feel like a genuine whammy, and as a long time strat  / floyd user  -I rely on the variable torque of the bar .

by contrast with Virtual Jeff, it has a center dead stop,, and the arm is too short IMHO  = very fiddly to obtain desired pitch   

Yeah, I don't know that I'm going to use it as a standard whammy bar. I suspect I'll be just mapping it to various parameters, including pitch shifting and bending... but I'm not really looking for a whammy bar in the traditional sense right now. 
Oddly enough, I suspect I'll end up using the touch pad or joystick as the 'whammy bar'. I actually enjoyed playing Moldover's "Robocaster" which has a joystick as the tremolo.  If I was going to get an awesome tremolo system right now, I suspect I'd go for the Linear trem.

I absolutely agree that the bar is too short on the Virtual Jeff  to reach to where I'd expect it to be.

vanceg

I suspect that they are using an 8 bit A/D for the sensor in the virtual jeff so they'd be interpolating to great the 14bits of precision that they could theoretically get out of pitch bend information. But I totally agree - seems like a "generic" mode which simply used pitch bend would be pretty useful.  It can't possibly be that very hard to change this and I suspect they expect to release versions which work out of the box with a different or wider set of devices. 

Quote from: nix808 on April 27, 2017, 04:19:02 PM
8D
I think I'm going to get one of these, and integrate it with my software.
I can map the CC too
Should be real nice!
It will be cool to map it to the pitchbend message,
I'm not sure why the manufacturer didn't use that one, it has 16387 values I think, something like that

nix808

mmm-
yeah- I think I'll get it, cool to support this kind of innovation too.

My host PC audio environment supports PlayStation 2 controllers,
which have 2 joysticks- this should be fun too
- I might build a mount of the electronics backplate

The pitchbend un-quantised would be surely appreciated though,
14 bits is plenty if that's where they started from
Rock and Rock my boat, as long as you don't rock and rock my boat!hehe

vanceg

Just in case anyone cares, now or later:

I note now that the Virtual Jeff actually sends out THREE MIDI CC messages.  One sends 0-127 when moving from the "Center" to "Full Up" position, Another sends 0-127 when moving from the "Center" to "Full Down" position, and a third CC messages sends a "0" when at the "Center" position.  This third message (which I didn't notice previously) basically signals that the whammy bar isn't currently being used.  I've set it up on my VG-99 to turn the Whammy Switch Off.

I'm kind of impressed by how well the internal processor on the Virtual Jeff seems to scale the MIDI data.  I'm finding that I can wiggle the whammy bar just a little bit and get a nice "wobble" sound, but then move the bar a lot and get a proper dive-bomb sound if needed.

I've also found that the volume on the VG-99 seems to jump a little tiny bit when the whammy feature kicks in.  Not unsurprising but - I also find that when I'm making very small pitch changes with the VG-99's whammy bar (for example when I send a MIDI CC value of "1" and map that to the "T-Arm Control" parameter, I hear a lot of "chorus" sound.  Now, that KIND of makes some sense because we're applying a pitch shift to the sound, but I'd think that if the pitch shift really was 100% of the signal, I shouldn't hear any chorusing type sound...

Long and short - Just starting playing with the "right" or "best" way to use the Virtual Jeff with the VG-99. 

mooncaine

Cool! Sounds like you just sold one for them, because now that I know this, I'll buy it.

Vance, you might want to try this: set up a patch that turns on the pitch effect(s) you need, the moment you switch to that patch. The theory is that if it remains "on" all the time, you won't hear the slight bump when it comes on and off.

I've done something similar to that before, when I had a patch set up to use a 2 ribbon controllers, laid directly atop each other, to control pitch bend up & down. I set up the Control Assigns so that one CC# was controlling, say, the Ribbon's T-Arm Control, and a different CC#was controlling the D-Beam's T-Arm control. I set aside some part of the control's range (for example, I have it start at 8 instead of 0), and my set-aside range becomes a custom 'dead zone.' I can use that zone in another Control Assign to turn stuff on & off. I do it often with the Ribbon Filter, using the bottom end of the ribbon to toggle it on/off instead of letting it just turn off when I take my hand away.

I've tried using another Control Assign to keep the D-Beam or Ribbon's pitch bend effect on constantly. I can't recall if it really worked or not. It's set to be controlled by "Internal Pedal" and the option I choose is "Patch Change." Every time I switch to that patch, the D-Beam or Ribbon's pitch effect can be triggered on or off (but I think I can only get one of them at a time, so using the other turns the first one off anyway).

I think the chorusing is caused by a very slight overlap, in time, of your unbent, 'normal' sound and the bent, effected sound triggered in the VG-99. Maybe it's trying to do a very fast cross-fade, but a tiny wiggle of the whammy bar happens too quickly for the fade?

I wish I could load up a patch for you to try today, but my office Mac is too new to run the VG-99 Editor.

mooncaine

Quote from: vanceg on April 30, 2017, 10:00:51 PMI'm kind of impressed by how well the internal processor on the Virtual Jeff seems to scale the MIDI data.  I'm finding that I can wiggle the whammy bar just a little bit and get a nice "wobble" sound, but then move the bar a lot and get a proper dive-bomb sound if needed
Almost forgot to add: I think that the nicely smooth response is probably due to the VG-99's D-Beam and Ribbon "T-Arm" effects.

When I was deep into ribbon-controller land on my project guitar, I found that the VG-99 did a fantastic job of smoothing the results of a MIDI CC# command when it was assigned to those bending types. If I used another bending type, such as the Pitch Bend setting in Alt. Tune or the Pitch Bend effect in the Effects section, results were less impressive. I could hear the little stairsteps in the pitch.

My Guitar Wing turned out to have such a short ribbon controller that I couldn't accurately hit a perfect 4th, 5th or 7th (for example) by sliding my finger.

Elantric

#92
The Virtual Jeff tremolo Arm  outputs DC Control voltage
QuoteI've also found that the volume on the VG-99 seems to jump a little tiny bit when the whammy feature kicks in.  Not unsurprising but - I also find that when I'm making very small pitch changes with the VG-99's whammy bar (for example when I send a MIDI CC value of "1" and map that to the "T-Arm Control" parameter, I hear a lot of "chorus" sound.  Now, that KIND of makes some sense because we're applying a pitch shift to the sound, but I'd think that if the pitch shift really was 100% of the signal, I shouldn't hear any chorusing type sound...

Just like applying a DSP Alt tuning, Perhaps you are being fooled by also hearing the frequencies of the non-amplified strings mixed with the slightly pitch shifted sound of the VG-99 output

vanceg

Quote from: Elantric on May 06, 2017, 01:55:13 PM
The Virtual Jeff tremolo Arm  outputs DC Control voltage

Yeah, I figured it did too.  But I can't yet tell how. That is, it seem to not just be a pot in there as I can't measure any resistance across any of the three output pins like I can on a standard pot. 

Elantric

#94
I understand there is an internal Hall effect sensor on the trem arm , and small PIC CPU that reads its location and outputs a 0-5VDC control voltage. ( more like 0.125 VDC Trem Bar pushed down, to 4.3VDC with trem bar pulled up  ) , with a nominal 2.5VDC output at rest.   
Ed Clothier at Lectronx  (at) gmail has already designed a working wireless adapter for the Virtual Jeff whammy bar for  Thomas Nordegg)

vanceg

Ah, So I'm going to have to apply some DC power to that TRS connector.   I was ASSuming that it might be as simple as connecting the bar output to the a standard pedal to MIDI converter.   

I'm having a heck of a time contacting anyone at FOMO recently (after it being REALLY easy to talk with folks for a while) so I've been stumbling in the dark a little.  I didn't want to make an ASSumption and mess something up, so I've been pretty conservative. I'll contact Ed and see if he has any fine ideas.

mooncaine

I'm getting one. What kinda dang power adapter should I get for it?

mooncaine

Quote from: vanceg on April 30, 2017, 10:00:51 PMI note now that the Virtual Jeff actually sends out THREE MIDI CC messages.  One sends 0-127 when moving from the "Center" to "Full Up" position, Another sends 0-127 when moving from the "Center" to "Full Down" position, and a third CC messages sends a "0" when at the "Center" position.  This third message (which I didn't notice previously) basically signals that the whammy bar isn't currently being used.  I've set it up on my VG-99 to turn the Whammy Switch Off.

So, are those 3 different MIDI CC# messages being sent? Which ones? (Please.)

I've got one waiting for me at home, arrived today. Can't wait to hook it up to VG-99. I also ordered a BOSS power supply and a MIDI cable, so... I think I should have all I need.

admin

#98
QuoteI've got one waiting for me at home, arrived today. Can't wait to hook it up to VG-99. I also ordered a BOSS power supply and a MIDI cable, so... I think I should have all I need.

You will also need the tools explained in this thread

MIDI controller Setup / Debug
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2975.0

Its going to be tough to get it working  with VG-99

Remember the Virtual Jeff is really designed to work with the Digitech Whammy

mooncaine

Darn, I was hoping the VG-99 had a setting that tells it to ignore incoming Program Change messages.